• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Just a thought on small businesses and Obama's tax proposal...

Mensch

Mr. Professional
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
3,715
Reaction score
751
Location
Northern Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If more than 2/3 of all small businesses (and small businesses according to the Small Business Administration is a business employing 500 people or less - or 99.7% of all American businesses) declare their personal incomes <of the owner(s)> as their business incomes, how would that be affected by Obama's tax proposals?
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,941
Reaction score
33,501
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If more than 2/3 of all small businesses (and small businesses according to the Small Business Administration is a business employing 500 people or less - or 99.7% of all American businesses) declare their personal incomes <of the owner(s)> as their business incomes, how would that be affected by Obama's tax proposals?

go here and see that there are size standards for every industry under the North American Industry Classification Standards: 2010 CFR Title 13, Volume 1
500 employees is a bit of a shorthand due to the variety of size standards

but i see little impact to small business owners who claim the income of the business as their own on their federal tax returns
 

Mensch

Mr. Professional
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
3,715
Reaction score
751
Location
Northern Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
go here and see that there are size standards for every industry under the North American Industry Classification Standards: 2010 CFR Title 13, Volume 1
500 employees is a bit of a shorthand due to the variety of size standards

but i see little impact to small business owners who claim the income of the business as their own on their federal tax returns

Regardless, the fact still stands that 2/3 of all small business owners claim the income of their business as their own on their federal tax returns. What does that inherently mean? I believe it means a lot of small business owners will be those citizens above the $250,000/yr threshold.

Besides, when the government tries to help small businesses, it actually hurts all businesses and taxpayers, see the small business myth:

The small business myth: when the government tries to help small businesses, it hurts businesses (and taxpayers) of all sizes. - Free Online Library
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,941
Reaction score
33,501
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Regardless, the fact still stands that 2/3 of all small business owners claim the income of their business as their own on their federal tax returns. What does that inherently mean? I believe it means a lot of small business owners will be those citizens above the $250,000/yr threshold.
i suspect you were trying to make a point there. i was unable to recognize it
those who earn the most would wind up paying more in taxes, even those who are small business owners who pay the business' tax obligations as their own
Besides, when the government tries to help small businesses, it actually hurts all businesses and taxpayers, see the small business myth:

The small business myth: when the government tries to help small businesses, it hurts businesses (and taxpayers) of all sizes. - Free Online Library
what you have presented is a propaganda piece funded by charles koch/koch industries
that republican underwriter who funded the author of that article, the mercatus center, to conclude that global warming was actually a good thing
anybody surprised that a very rich republican is going also use the mercatus center to tout tax cuts as a cure all? how is that neocon political philosophy working out for us these days?
 

b.larset

Banned
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
520
Reaction score
76
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I think after they see the issue concerning costs to business to carry the burden of the stimulis and national health care. They will be forced to raise taxes in the name of. Good Government!
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If more than 2/3 of all small businesses (and small businesses according to the Small Business Administration is a business employing 500 people or less - or 99.7% of all American businesses) declare their personal incomes <of the owner(s)> as their business incomes, how would that be affected by Obama's tax proposals?

It would make no difference. They essentially already do that.

S-Corps do not pay income tax, the income is indicated on their personal income tax because they have to issue a K-1 to each share holder (similar to a W2 or 1099). Each individual then includes his/her K-1 income on his/her personal income tax and pays normal income tax on it. LLCs either file a partnership income tax form (in the event that the LLC has more than one owner) or a Schedual C on their personal taxes (in the event that there is only one owner), and sole propriatorships use the Schedual C - all of these types of businesses pay regular income tax on all of their business income just as if it had been from employment.

Obama's tax proposal will effect small business exactly the same way it effects people who work for others. I am personally all for extending the Bush era tax cut to the 97% of people who recieve income from small businesses and to 98% of all families, which is exactly what the Obama tax proposal will do. Raising taxes on the consumer class would devistate our economy - which is apparently what the Republicans want to do since many of them are saying that they will not vote to extend the tax cuts on the lower income tax brackets. It really turns me away from the Republican party that I have voted for in the past when their "oppose Obama at any cost" attitude create an enviroment where they choose to harm our economy.
 
Last edited:

Missed AB

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,714
Reaction score
363
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
what you have presented is a propaganda piece funded by charles koch/koch industries
that republican underwriter who funded the author of that article, the mercatus center, to conclude that global warming was actually a good thing
anybody surprised that a very rich republican is going also use the mercatus center to tout tax cuts as a cure all? how is that neocon political philosophy working out for us these days?
Taxes remove money from circulation. Propaganda or not, higher tax rates mean there is less money available to stimulate. To further the point why would the government simultaniously initiate QE2, and raise taxes?

Taxes are like breaks to the economy. Taxes should be increased while the economy is moving strongly, and decreased when the economy is puttering along.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Taxes remove money from circulation.

I used to think the same thing. Posters on this forum have proven to me that that is not neccessarally true.

If the government taxes away some money from me, and then they spend it on something, they really have not removed money from circulation as it re-enters our economy. Alternately if they tax money away from me, and they use it to pay down our debt to China, assuming that China then uses it to purchase US goods, then once again it has not been removed from circulation. Taxation certainly redistributes money, but it doesn't normally distroy it.

Money is really never distroyed, it just changes hands - thats exactly what it is made for. Even if I paid someone money to dig a hole, and I paid someone else to fill in the hole, the manpower was certainly a waste, and from my personal microeconomic viewpoint my money was wasted, but the money still exists and will still circulate - it just changed ownership.

Money can only be distroyed if it is physically distroyed (like in a fire), or if the Treasury repays the Fed and then fed then disappears the money the same magical way the appeared the money to begin with (this distruction of money could be used to fight inflation and thus is a legitimate reason for the treasury to owe part of our national debt to the fed).
 
Last edited:

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,661
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
It would make no difference. They essentially already do that.

S-Corps do not pay income tax, the income is indicated on their personal income tax because they have to issue a K-1 to each share holder (similar to a W2 or 1099). Each individual then includes his/her K-1 income on his/her personal income tax and pays normal income tax on it. LLCs either file a partnership income tax form (in the event that the LLC has more than one owner) or a Schedual C on their personal taxes (in the event that there is only one owner), and sole propriatorships use the Schedual C - all of these types of businesses pay regular income tax on all of their business income just as if it had been from employment.

Obama's tax proposal will effect small business exactly the same way it effects people who work for others. I am personally all for extending the Bush era tax cut to the 97% of people who recieve income from small businesses and to 98% of all families, which is exactly what the Obama tax proposal will do. Raising taxes on the consumer class would devistate our economy - which is apparently what the Republicans want to do since many of them are saying that they will not vote to extend the tax cuts on the lower income tax brackets. It really turns me away from the Republican party that I have voted for in the past when their "oppose Obama at any cost" attitude create an enviroment where they choose to harm our economy.

There's a very interesting loophole in the Subchapter S corporate tax structure. One can take a "fair salary" (who decides that?) and then take the rest of the Sub S's income as dividends -- which are not taxed at the corporate level and are (I believe) taxed at the individual level as ordinary income. This results in many small business owners skirting the Social Security taxes on anything above, say $50,000 (if they use that number as "fair"). Many small business owners take advantage of this.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There's a very interesting loophole in the Subchapter S corporate tax structure. One can take a "fair salary" (who decides that?) and then take the rest of the Sub S's income as dividends -- which are not taxed at the corporate level and are (I believe) taxed at the individual level as ordinary income. This results in many small business owners skirting the Social Security taxes on anything above, say $50,000 (if they use that number as "fair"). Many small business owners take advantage of this.

Yup!!! Been there done that.
 
Top Bottom