Juno actor Ellen Page publicly comes out as a transgender male named Elliot and tells fans in a statement: 'My pronouns are he/they' - as wife of two

[Lisa]

That is opinion, not fact. There is no reliable physical evidence detectable in these cases. There only the assertion by the person in question that they are not really the gender they were born to. Maybe they’re right, maybe they’re just having difficulty differentiating reality from what they only imagine to be true as those didn’t delusion disorder do.

Do you know what an MRI is? Those images aren't opinions.

If what you are claiming is true that they are merely delusional then why doesn't medication to treat delusions cure their feelings of gender incongruence? Are you so obtuse that your idea wasn't tried in the past and rejected when it wasn't effective or even found to be dangerous to their health?

What is it about the existence of transgendered people that bothers you so greatly? is it the fact that you must accept that human sexuality is far more complex than you want it to be or is it that maybe you harbor some feelings of gender identity and you have tried to ignore your feelings as a delusion?

 

[buck]

Being transgendered is not a delusion because there is physical evidence in the brain that our psychological gender identity is innate to use and determined.

So... gender is not a social construct?

 

[Lisa]

So... gender is not a social construct?

Gender roles are a social construct. Psychological gender identity is not a social construct any more than our biological gender is a social construct. We used to think that our gender was determined merely by DNA and chromosomes but we learned 40+ years ago that psychological gender does exist and plays a huge role w in who we are. For +90% of people, their gender identity and their biological gender are congruent at either male or female but there is a small percentage of the population where their biological gender and their psychological gender identity are somehow incongruent and there are either trans or is some case gender non-binary, which is the gender anaologaous to being bisexual.

Psychological gender identity was just a theory for many years but now with increased medical imaging technology and gene developments it can be seen on MRIs and there is increasing evidence that there is a genetic component to it.

 

[NatMorton]

Do you know what an MRI is? Those images aren't opinions.

If what you are claiming is true that they are merely delusional then why doesn't medication to treat delusions cure their feelings of gender incongruence? Are you so obtuse that your idea wasn't tried in the past and rejected when it wasn't effective or even found to be dangerous to their health?

What is it about the existence of transgendered people that bothers you so greatly? is it the fact that you must accept that human sexuality is far more complex than you want it to be or is it that maybe you harbor some feelings of gender identity and you have tried to ignore your feelings as a delusion?

I know what an MRI is, and I also know it is not possible to diagnose "gender disorder" with an MRI. Whoever is telling you that it can be done is lying to you.

The existence of transgender people does not bother me greatly or at all. If you must know how I feel about them it's closer to pity. It must be miserable to be that uncomfortable in one's skin. Despite my sympathy for them, however, from an intellectual standpoint I'm not willing to sacrifice the importance of facts and the scientific method just so I don't hurt someone's feelings. The definition of gender I prefer is one based on biology, not political correctness. Others are free to choose the definition they think best, but I ask that they not seek to impose their definition on me. Clearer?

 

[NatMorton]

Gender roles are a social construct. Psychological gender identity is not a social construct.

Gender roles may be a social construct, but gender itself is not. Gender is rooted in one's DNA.

 

[NatMorton]

Do you know what an MRI is? Those images aren't opinions.

If what you are claiming is true that they are merely delusional then why doesn't medication to treat delusions cure their feelings of gender incongruence? Are you so obtuse that your idea wasn't tried in the past and rejected when it wasn't effective or even found to be dangerous to their health?

What is it about the existence of transgendered people that bothers you so greatly? is it the fact that you must accept that human sexuality is far more complex than you want it to be or is it that maybe you harbor some feelings of gender identity and you have tried to ignore your feelings as a delusion?

... and back at you. Why does it bother you so much I do not share your definition of gender?

 

[notquiteright]

You might suggest that. But I'd suggest you don't worry about what i wonder about. I truly don't need nor care about your suggestion. Thanks anyway.

And yet look at the crap you posted soliciting suggestions and opinions. Look how clueless you are and apparently lack much of a circle of friends/co-workers/people you do more than small talk with.

Have a nice day.... ✌

 

[Lisa]

I know what an MRI is, and I also know it is not possible to diagnose "gender disorder" with an MRI. Whoever is telling you that it can be done is lying to you.

The existence of transgender people does not bother me greatly or at all. If you must know how I feel about them it's closer to pity. It must be miserable to be that uncomfortable in one's skin. Despite my sympathy for them, however, from an intellectual standpoint I'm not willing to sacrifice the importance of facts and the scientific method just so I don't hurt someone's feelings. The definition of gender I prefer is one based on biology, not political correctness. Others are free to choose the definition they think best, but I ask that they not seek to impose their definition on me. Clearer?

We cannot yet diagnose gender identity disorder with an MRI but we likely will be able to in 15-20 years at the current rate of progress. There is also a genetic component that we will be able to test for with a blood or tissue sample to make that diagnosis.

Genetic Link Between Gender Dysphoria and Sex Hormone Signaling - PubMed

Gender dysphoria may have an oligogenic component, with several genes involved in sex hormone-signaling contributing.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

... and back at you. Why does it bother you so much I do not share your definition of gender?

I don't care about your opinion because objective facts do not need your approval to be true. 2+2=4 will always be true, despite the fact that there may be somebody who says otherwise.

 

[buck]

Gender roles are a social construct. Psychological gender identity is not a social construct.

If there really is a male and female brain (and I belive it, though it's not clear cut as i belive you envision), it is very likely that the roles are also not a social construct.

Then you'd have to ask yourself, what came first the brain or the gender role and how evolution impacted that difference.

Gender roles have existed for just about forever and amongst nearly all species. That you think humans are so special to defy that, seems odd to me.

 

[buck]

And yet look at the crap you posted soliciting suggestions and opinions. Look how clueless you are and apparently lack much of a circle of friends/co-workers/people you do more than small talk with.

Have a nice day.... ✌

Since you are worried about what I do while telling me I shouldn't be worried about what others do, I can only laugh at you.

 

[MamboDervish]

Ellen Page publicly comes out as a transgender male named Elliot, says: 'My pronouns are he/they' | Daily Mail Online

I don't care if she is transgender.. and she should live her life however she wants. Although I won't consider Ellen a "he".

But, I was reading this story, and wondering what does that mean for her wife?

The wife is now married to, what people that follow this ideology believe, to be a man. Many will believe she was always a man.

Does this mean that the wife is no longer a lesbian and the wife is, and always was, a cis, hetero woman?

After 5 days and 22 pages, it astounds me that this is still an active OP. It's hard to imagine so much thought and energy has been expended opining about an actor's sexual identity. The first sexual reassignment operation was performed way back in 1966. People have been making their own gender identity choices for more than 50 years! This is no longer "a thing". Let's all do our best to move into the 21st century - shall we?

 

[Lisa]

... and back at you. Why does it bother you so much I do not share your definition of gender?

If there really is a male and female brain (and I belive it, though it's not clear cut as i belive you envision), it is very likely that the roles are also not a social construct.

Then you'd have to ask yourself, what came first the brain or the gender role and how evolution impacted that difference.

Gender roles have existed for just about forever and amongst nearly all species. That you think humans are so special to defy that, seems odd to me.

Gender roles and gender expression aren't binary male or female. It's a long spectrum of grey (blue or pink) with black and white gender absolutes are either end. That is a fact that has been known for 40 years.

Frontiers | Traditional Masculinity and Femininity: Validation of a New Scale Assessing Gender Roles

Gender stereotype theory suggests that men are generally perceived as more masculine than women, whereas women are generally perceived as more feminine than ...

www.frontiersin.org

After 5 days and 22 pages, it astounds me that this is still an active OP. It's hard to imagine so much thought and energy has been expended opining about an actor's sexual identity. The first sexual reassignment operation was performed way back in 1966. People have been making their own gender identity choices for more than 50 years! This is no longer "a thing". Let's all do our best to move into the 21st century - shall we?

Christine Jorgenson had gender surgery in Europe in 1952. Gender surgery might have been first performed in the US in 1968 but it was done overseas decades prior.

Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[notquiteright]

Since you are worried about what I do while telling me I shouldn't be worried about what others do, I can only laugh at you.

Not the least bit 'worried', just noting you lack a diverse group of friends (perhaps very few at all) and how bored must you be to post about your rather silly questions about other's sex lives....

I wish I thought you were funny enough to laugh at/with.... no at.... ✌

 

[buck]

Gender roles and gender expression aren't binary male or female. It's a long spectrum of grey (blue or pink) with black and white gender absolutes are either end. That is a fact that has been known for 40 years.

That doesn't do a thing to prove that gender roles are social constructs.

 

[MamboDervish]

Gender roles and gender expression aren't binary male or female. It's a long spectrum of grey (blue or pink) with black and white gender absolutes are either end. That is a fact that has been known for 40 years.

Frontiers | Traditional Masculinity and Femininity: Validation of a New Scale Assessing Gender Roles

Gender stereotype theory suggests that men are generally perceived as more masculine than women, whereas women are generally perceived as more feminine than ...

www.frontiersin.org

Christine Jorgenson had gender surgery in Europe in 1952. Gender surgery might have been first performed in the US in 1968 but it was done overseas decades prior.

Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Point taken.

 

[Visbek]

I know what an MRI is, and I also know it is not possible to diagnose "gender disorder" with an MRI. Whoever is telling you that it can be done is lying to you.

lol

Apparently you only learned that yesterday, from a link I gave you which points out that transgenderism very likely is biological in its underlying causality.

And yet again: Merely because we can't use fMRI scans (not "MRI," that is a different type of scan) to diagnose gender dysphoria doesn't mean that it's not fundamentally neurological in nature.

For example, fMRI scans probably can't diagnose mental illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, OCD, severe depression and anxiety disorders (specifically, fMRI scans of these patients are too similar to each other, even though the illnesses are very different). That doesn't prove that these conditions do not have any physical, biological or neurological basis.

The existence of transgender people does not bother me greatly or at all.

Then it shouldn't bother you to refer to Elliot using his correct name, and correct pronouns. And yet...

Others are free to choose the definition they think best, but I ask that they not seek to impose their definition on me.

Too bad, because that's how language works.

Since you missed it, the entire world is imposing its definitions upon you. If you refuse to accept common definitions of words, then you won't be able to communicate. In extremely rare circumstances you may be able to propose your own new word or alternate definition -- e.g. someone defined "ratioed" and it spread -- but even in that case, it only works if enough English speakers accept the new definition, and once it's out there, it's extremely unlikely that even the person who coined the term can change it after it's accepted.

I might add that in many ways, this is no different than ANYONE changing their name. When a woman gets married and changes her last name, are you outraged because she's "imposing" a name change on you? If a friend of yours gets a nickname and it sticks, are people who use that nickname "delusional?"

Obviously not. It's clear that you are not objecting to a mere name change, you're objecting to someone who bucks heteronormativity. I wonder why...?

 

[buck]

Not the least bit 'worried', just noting you lack a diverse grouup of friends (perhaps very few at all) and how bored must you be to post about your rather silly questions about other's sex lives....

I wish I thought you were funny enough to laugh at/with.... no at.... ✌

For someone not the least bit worried about what I wonder about you sure seem worried about it. Even concerned with my friends.. Odd that.

 

[notquiteright]

For someone not the least bit worried about what I wonder about you sure seem worried about it. Odd that.

Perhaps English isn't your first language. You certainly don't grasp human concepts ( answers the question why ask so bizarre set of questions of someone you don't know)

That you would post what you wonder about- the sexual orientation and self labeling of a transgender- tells a sad tale. Not the least bit worried, now I'm just amused you keep responding. Leans toward how lonely and friendless some are.... ☹

Get out make new friends of as many sexual variations you can find. Get up off your brain and explore. You can't be that lazy... ✌

 

[NatMorton]

We cannot yet diagnose gender identity disorder with an MRI but we likely will be able to in 15-20 years at the current rate of progress. There is also a genetic component that we will be able to test for with a blood or tissue sample to make that diagnosis.

Genetic Link Between Gender Dysphoria and Sex Hormone Signaling - PubMed

Gender dysphoria may have an oligogenic component, with several genes involved in sex hormone-signaling contributing.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I don't care about your opinion because objective facts do not need your approval to be true. 2+2=4 will always be true, despite the fact that there may be somebody who says otherwise.

So we are in agreement that today there is no way to tell if gender disorder exists, if it can be diagnosed, who has it, and who does not. Those are the facts we agree to, but only one of us seems willing to incorporate those facts into our thinking.

Lastly, you’re the one who commented on my supposed feelings on this matter. So you clearly wanted them discussed. What you don’t want hear is that you were wrong about them.

 

[NatMorton]

lol

Apparently you only learned that yesterday, from a link I gave you which points out that transgenderism very likely is biological in its underlying causality.

And yet again: Merely because we can't use fMRI scans (not "MRI," that is a different type of scan) to diagnose gender dysphoria doesn't mean that it's not fundamentally neurological in nature.

For example, fMRI scans probably can't diagnose mental illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, OCD, severe depression and anxiety disorders (specifically, fMRI scans of these patients are too similar to each other, even though the illnesses are very different). That doesn't prove that these conditions do not have any physical, biological or neurological basis.



Then it shouldn't bother you to refer to Elliot using his correct name, and correct pronouns. And yet...



Too bad, because that's how language works.

Since you missed it, the entire world is imposing its definitions upon you. If you refuse to accept common definitions of words, then you won't be able to communicate. In extremely rare circumstances you may be able to propose your own new word or alternate definition -- e.g. someone defined "ratioed" and it spread -- but even in that case, it only works if enough English speakers accept the new definition, and once it's out there, it's extremely unlikely that even the person who coined the term can change it after it's accepted.

I might add that in many ways, this is no different than ANYONE changing their name. When a woman gets married and changes her last name, are you outraged because she's "imposing" a name change on you? If a friend of yours gets a nickname and it sticks, are people who use that nickname "delusional?"

Obviously not. It's clear that you are not objecting to a mere name change, you're objecting to someone who bucks heteronormativity. I wonder why...?

I’m bucking pseudoscience.

 

[notquiteright]

So we are in agreement that today there is no way to tell if gender disorder exists, if it can be diagnosed, who has it, and who does not. Those are the facts we agree to, but only one of us seems willing to incorporate those facts into our thinking. Lastly, you’re the one who commented on my supposed feelings on this matter. So you clearly wanted them discussed. What you don’t want hear is that you were wrong about them.

Ahhh noooo.... I'm saying it isn't a disorder. You can try to move the goalposts but I don't subscribe to the social conservative disorder BS. (Neither does the medical profession)

I asked for personal sexual information since some want to delve into others sexual preferences and acts. Do you enjoy a prostate massage during oral? How about her on top or more than one partner. Many enjoy a bit of bondage or Dominance and submission. how about roleplay or 'daddy'???? Tell us a bit about YOUR sexual identification and how you and your partner(s) interact.

I mean give a little to get a little (that's what SHE said... ).... ✌

 

[NatMorton]

Ahhh noooo.... I'm saying it isn't a disorder. You can try to move the goalposts but I don't subscribe to the social conservative disorder BS. (Neither does the medical profession)

I asked for personal sexual information since some want to delve into others sexual preferences and acts. Do you enjoy a prostate massage during oral? How about her on top or more than one partner. Many enjoy a bit of bondage or Dominance and submission. how about roleplay or 'daddy'???? Tell us a bit about YOUR sexual identification and how you and your partner(s) interact.

I mean give a little to get a little (that's what SHE said... ).... ✌

What you don’t subscribe to are facts, reason, or maturity.

 

[Lisa]

So we are in agreement that today there is no way to tell if gender disorder exists, if it can be diagnosed, who has it, and who does not. Those are the facts we agree to, but only one of us seems willing to incorporate those facts into our thinking.

Lastly, you’re the one who commented on my supposed feelings on this matter. So you clearly wanted them discussed. What you don’t want to hear is that you were wrong about them.

We do know that gender identity exists because they can view it via an MRI scan of the brain. The brains of people who are transgendered have regions of the brain that are more likely those of their gender identity and are large or more connected in one gender than the other. Gender identity disorder or incongruence has always existed, almost as far back as we have written records of societies.

What is it about gender identity incongruence that bothers you so or is so offensive to you? Do you feel hate when you see a transgendered person o in the news because it is likely that you can spot them on the street because they blend in with the population? Where are you getting this information that transgender people don't exist and that psychological gender identity is pseudoscience, as your claim in the following reply?

How many credit hours or years of formal study do you have in psychology, psychiatry, sociology, anthropology, or neuroscience?

Do you know more than the American Psychological Association or the American Psychiatric Association? If you are so well versed on the subject then you should write a paper on the subject and submit it to the Lancet, the JAMA, or WPATH. They would certainly benefit from your vast expertise in the matter.

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from socially constructed norms associated with their birth sex. This includes androgynous, bigendered and gender queer people, who tend to see...

www.apa.org

TGNC Guide

This guide offers an array of topics that will be essential in understanding how to work with TGNC patients.

www.psychiatry.org

 

[buck]

Perhaps English isn't your first language. You certainly don't grasp human concepts ( answers the question why ask so bizarre set of questions of someone you don't know)

That you would post what you wonder about- the sexual orientation and self labeling of a transgender- tells a sad tale. Not the least bit worried, now I'm just amused you keep responding. Leans toward how lonely and friendless some are.... ☹

Get out make new friends of as many sexual variations you can find. Get up off your brain and explore. You can't be that lazy... ✌

Yes, I should set up a quota system for the types of friends i have. I will need to get one of each type. Because that's a normal thing.

I'm so happy you are so concerned with my friends and supposed lack thereof. Hypocrite, thy name is notquiteright.

 

[Lisa]

Yes, I should set up a quota system for the types of friends I have. I will need to get one of each type. Because that's a normal thing.

I'm so happy you are so concerned with my friends and the supposed lack thereof. Hypocrite, thy need is not quite right.

Are t you suggesting that everyone must have a trans or non-binary friend? Just because have 1-2% of the population is trans doesn't mean that they want to be friends with people like you..................