Juno actor Ellen Page publicly comes out as a transgender male named Elliot and tells fans in a statement: 'My pronouns are he/they' - as wife of two

[COTO]

Ok. I understand you to have existential concerns about western society's future and the traditional roles of men and women? [1]

Can I assume you also have concerns about women stepping out from the traditional at-home-raising-children roles? Should they serve their husbands? [2] Does homosexuality also concern you in the same way as the concept of someone living as the opposite sex? [3]

I would like to understand the root of your concern because it does not. seem like you are genuinely concerned for people who identify as trans. [4]

It may interest you to know that there are countries (Iran is an example) where effeminate and/or gay men (and some women) are forced to undergo SRS because that society sees homosexuality as immoral and homosexual acts are illegal. Do you wish to take away consenting adults' sexual freedoms in the US? [5]

There are people in the US who have transitioned (socially and then medically later) their own children because of the fear of their effeminate young sons "becoming gay". Their religion is at the root of this and they are open about their reasons. They would rather have a trans child than a gay child. This says a lot. Internalized and societal homophobia is very much a part of the reason some people transition. [6] ... Many gay adults report feeling gender confusion when they were young and are thankful they were not growing up today where transition would be pushed by some or being transgender would be assumed. [7] Young women who detransition report being unable to accept their attraction toward women and having families who rejected them coming out as gay. They transitioned to live as men and obviously came to regret it and have come to terms with their same sex attraction. ... [8]

...
If your concern is not for the individual but is really about your holding tight to antiquated ideas and a panic about the future of "christian" or "traditional" society then be honest about that. Do not pretend to care about those who struggle with gender confusion or those who may head down a surgical path mistakenly. [9]

[1] Yes.

[2] I have misgivings about so-called "third wave" feminism, but they're not on-topic here.

[3] Yes, but again, this isn't on-topic here, and the thread is convoluted enough.

[4] I'm concerned for them--and by them--in the same sense as one is concerned for/by persons who self-medicate with alcohol, or who sleep around indiscriminately, or who are bitter racists. I.e., people suffering from a serious underlying problem, attempting to resolve it in a way that's harmful to themselves and everyone around them.

[5] This is two different issues. 1) Do I support SRS because I believe it can make a homosexual man into a heterosexual woman? Absolutely not. I'd consider the premise absurd even if I believed people could legitimately change their gender, which I don't. 2) Do I want to make SRS illegal in the Western world? No, but I also don't want my taxes to subsidize it.

[6] Again, while some people may believe this, to me the premise of pretending a man is a woman (or vice versa) as an attempt to "invert" his sexual preference from same-sex to opposite-sex is no less ridiculous than putting "Orange Juice" labels on all of a drunkard's bottles of whiskey so that when he drinks himself into a stupor, he can't be considered an alcoholic. It's absurd. Res ipsa loquitur.

[7] I have no trouble at all believing this.

[8] I don't know how to respond here except to affirm that my moral opposition to homosexuality is absolute. While it's unfortunate that people do foolish things like "transitioning" in response to condemnation of homosexuality, the facts remain that i) I absolutely do not condone transitioning as a "remedy" for homosexuality, and ii) foolish reactions to right moral criticism doesn't negate its status as right moral criticism. If you want an analogy: Some fraudsters cope with guilt by drinking themselves into oblivion. Yet who would be foolish enough to condone fraud on the basis that condemning it drives remorseful fraudsters to alcoholism?

[9] What you call "antiquated ideas" are what I consider to be the unshakeable foundations of moral law--the unchanging and irreplaceable rules that bring sustainable peace, prosperity, and happiness. If post #763 doesn't make it clear, my opposition to transsexualism, etc. is rooted in a firm, reasonable belief that these doctrines and practices are profoundly harmful. I don't take a moral position on a behaviour simply because I consider it strange, or unnatural, or disgusting, or even delusional.

 

[ProgressPlease]

OK I completely understand your position now and it was what I suspected.

I hope I was clear in what I was saying (I can be long-winded)

Basically, if people with your views about male/female societal roles and homosexuality could get past the personal issues, society would be better off and far fewer people would feel the need to transition.

 

[ProgressPlease]

Puberty blockers are a fairly standard treatment for transgender adolescents -- but only if the doctors are convinced that the gender dysphoria is persistent. They have a good safety profile, and their effects can be reversed -- i.e. if the individual stops taking them, puberty starts.

Gender-affirming hormones are not commonly prescribed.

Both of these treatments, obviously, require extensive therapy first, and of course parental consent.

Puberty blockers have known and unknown short and long term effects. They are experimental for this use. Even the gender experts/clinics state this clearly. They are not fully reversible. You can not pick up where you left off. That is simply impossible and clinicians know this. Interfering with the pubertal stage in a human has far reaching consequences - bone density issues are one that is talked about most frequently. This is why there is a push to get off the blockers and onto cross sex hormones. 99% of children go on to take cross sex hormones - that should ring some alarm bells and it has among clinicians and in the courts. We simply do not have enough information. As I said in another post, the stakes are high and we are making decisions for children who cannot know what the future holds for them - never mind that the majority would have grown past their dysphoria or confusion without medicalizing their feelings.

Cross sex hormones are routinely prescribed with informed consent and for minors. You may not be aware of this but it is a fact. And it is a troubling fact for many people who work with and support these young people. More alarm bells.

These treatments do not require extensive therapy. Each clinic (they can be a gender clinic or not) has their own policy.

 

[Lisa]

I'm morally opposed to transvestitism, if that's what you're asking.


Post #763 answers both of these questions. If you want a more specific answer, you'll have to ask a more specific question. I might also have answered it in my previous response to @ProgressPlease.

FWIW, I also reject your supposition that gender has never been regarded as an "absolute binary idea".

How is transvestitism a moral problem? Do you want drag queens arrested and charged with a crime?

Do you know the difference between transvestitism and transgender? Genbeer has never been binary. It has always been a spectrum, just as sexual orientation is a spectrum. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

 

[Visbek]

Puberty blockers have known and unknown short and long term effects. They are experimental for this use. Even the gender experts/clinics state this clearly.

GnRH analogues are used routinely, and have been used since the 1980s. I don't think they are classified as "experimental" anymore.

The safety profile is good, and yes, they are reversible -- i.e. if the minor stops taking them, puberty starts.

It is gender-affirming hormones (notably testosterone and estrogen) whose treatments are not fully reversible. That's why they are less commonly used with adolescents.

Interfering with the pubertal stage in a human has far reaching consequences - bone density issues are one that is talked about most frequently.

That's not an "irreversible change," it's a treatable and temporary and side effect of the medication. Adults who are treated with GNrH for other conditions like prostate cancer can also experience side effects like osteoporosis.

This is why there is a push to get off the blockers and onto cross sex hormones. 99% of children go on to take cross sex hormones - that should ring some alarm bells and it has among clinicians and in the courts.

Yes, unsourced statistics are truly terrifying.

I've never seen any guidance suggesting that transgender children should get off of puberty blockers as quickly as possible. Rather, one of the main goals of puberty blockers is to give the child time to understand and sort out their feelings. Gender-affirming hormones are usually only prescribed in older adolescence or early adulthood, and only as necessary (https://assets2.hrc.org/files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf).

Research also indicates that earlier use of puberty-blockers leads to better mental health outcomes (https://www.verywellmind.com/earlie...ental-health-outcomes-for-trans-youth-5086151).

We simply do not have enough information. As I said in another post, the stakes are high and we are making decisions for children who cannot know what the future holds for them - never mind that the majority would have grown past their dysphoria or confusion without medicalizing their feelings.

While I agree that more research is needed, that doesn't mean we should refuse to use the best available options. That is especially important when research slowly confirms that these methods work, and that the alternatives are ineffective -- or, in the case of something like so-called "conversion therapy," outright harmful.

Cross sex hormones are routinely prescribed with informed consent and for minors. You may not be aware of this but it is a fact. And it is a troubling fact for many people who work with and support these young people. More alarm bells.

Alarm bells? Or dog whistles?

The only people I hear who are terrified of these treatments are right-wingers whose ideas about gender are heavily challenged by the mere existence of transgender individuals.

On a fundamental level, the doctors, therapists, and accepting parents all have the same goal -- to reduce the distress experienced by the child. Doctors and therapists follow the research to find the best methods to do so. Are you suggesting that they are alarmed by their own therapeutic guidelines and recommendations...?

 

[COTO]

How is transvestitism a moral problem? Do you want drag queens arrested and charged with a crime?

Do you know the difference between transvestitism and transgender? Genbeer has never been binary. It has always been a spectrum, just as sexual orientation is a spectrum. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Rejecting the gender binary on the basis that men don't have perfectly identical levels of testosterone, perfectly identical neurochemistry, and perfectly identical levels of vasopressin, and likewise for women, is like arguing that we should reject cats and dogs as a binary, and instead consider our pets on a cat-dog spectrum, because some dogs look and behave cat-like and some cats look and behave dog-like, and... well... it's all so terribly complicated that we simply can't consider all dogs to be dogs and all cats to be cats.

Some must be trans-cats, and trans-dogs, and cogs, and dats, because its surely not their genetic makeup that's important, it's how they behave, which animals they like being around, and whether their hormone levels are more typical of feline or canine. There's your article in a nutshell.

Furthermore, for the record, your own source states that this nonsense of a gender "spectrum" only cropped up in the latter 20th Century. Prior to then, people knew perfectly well that male was male, female was female, and had the good sense not to let social engineers with bad arguments confuse the issue.

 

[Lisa]

Some must be trans-cats, and trans-dogs, and cogs, and dats, because its surely not their genetic makeup that's important, it's how they behave, which animals they like being around, and whether their hormone levels are more typical of feline or canine.

This reply is absurd. Trans people don't cross-species.

Furthermore, for the record, your own source states that this nonsense of a gender "spectrum" only cropped up in the latter 20th Century. Prior to then, people knew perfectly well that male was male, female was female, and had the good sense not to let social engineers with bad arguments confuse the issue.

Transgendered and non-binary people have always existed.

There were trans people in the Americans well before Columbus or the Europeans showed up.

In several pre-Columbian communities across Mexico, anthropologists and colonial accounts document acceptance of third-gender categories.[106] Transvestitism was an accepted practice in the native cultures of Central (and South) America, including among the Aztecs and Mayans (as reflected in their mythologies).[107][108] Spanish colonizers were hostile to it.[109]

The Zapotec people of Oaxaca have a third gender role for muxes, people who dress, behave and perform work otherwise associated with the other binary gender;[110][111][112] vestidas wear feminine clothes, while pintadas wear masculine clothes but also makeup and jewellery.[113] They may marry women, men, or other muxes.[111] It has been suggested that while the three gender system predates Spanish colonization, the phenomenon of muxes dressing as women may be more recent.[114] Juchitán de Zaragoza, an indigenous community on the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, has so many well-accepted muxes there is a myth attributing their numbers to a bag of third-genders carried by Saint Vicent ripping and accidentally spilling many out over the town;[115] one study estimated 6% of males in the community in the 1970s were muxes.[116]

During the Mexican Revolution, Amelio Robles Ávila began to dress and demand to be treated as a man[117] and, gaining respect as a capable leader, was promoted to colonel.[118] Robles' maleness was accepted by family, society, and the Mexican government, and he lived as a man from age 24 until death;[117] a neighbor said that if anyone called Robles a woman, Robles would threaten them with a pistol,[119][120] and he killed two men who attacked him and tried to reveal his anatomy.[121]

Wiki/transgendered

There were trans people among the native American tribes and they were held in high regard, so gender has not always been binary by any means.

The 'two-spirit' people of indigenous North Americans

This week's guest editor, Antony Hegarty, is a fan of the book The Spirit and the Flesh. He asked its author, Walter L Williams, to write a feature for the Guardian/music on the 'two-spirit' tradition in Native American culture

www.theguardian.com

 

[COTO]

This reply is absurd. Trans people don't cross-species.

What's absurd is using aberrations in hormone levels and neurochemistry instead of genetics as a basis for gender. My cat-dog analogy simply exports this absurdity into a domain where even progressivism can recognize it.

There were trans people among the native American tribes and they were held in high regard, so gender has not always been binary by any means.

I didn't mean to imply that never at any time or place did some group of people dissolve the notion of gender. But history is also littered with examples of people who believed they were animals, that drinking the blood of their enemies gave them superhuman strength, and that babies grew on the tip of men's penises until they were implanted into the woman via sexual intercourse.

Even in European history, I'm sure somewhere, sometime prior to the 20th Century, we could find some group of people who decided to throw away the concept of gender for whatever absurd reason. This still doesn't justify the statement "Genbeer [sic] has never been binary."

 

[Lisa]

What's absurd is using aberrations in hormone levels and neurochemistry instead of genetics as a basis for gender. My cat-dog analogy simply exports this absurdity into a domain where even progressivism can recognize it.


I didn't mean to imply that never at any time or place did some group of people dissolve the notion of gender. But history is also littered with examples of people who believed they were animals, that drinking the blood of their enemies gave them superhuman strength, and that babies grew on the tip of men's penises until they were implanted into the woman via sexual intercourse.

Even in European history, I'm sure somewhere, sometime prior to the 20th Century, we could find some group of people who decided to throw away the concept of gender for whatever absurd reason. This still doesn't justify the statement "Genbeer [sic] has never been binary."

 

[ProgressPlease]

I don't think they are classified as "experimental" anymore.

It is gender-affirming hormones (notably testosterone and estrogen) whose treatments are not fully reversible. That's why they are less commonly used with adolescents.

Alarm bells? Or dog whistles?

The only people I hear who are terrified of these treatments are right-wingers whose ideas about gender are heavily challenged by the mere existence of transgender individuals.

You can agree or not with the recent court decision in the UK but the fact remains that the court concurred with the treatment being experimental after reading the current research and consulting with the experts.

Puberty blockers: Under-16s 'unlikely to be able to give informed consent'

Children younger than 16 are unlikely to be able to give informed consent, three judges rule.

www.bbc.com

"Given the long-term consequences of the clinical interventions at issue in this case, and given that the treatment is as yet innovative and experimental, we recognise that clinicians may well regard these as cases where the authorisation of the court should be sought prior to commencing the clinical treatment."

Gender dysphoria - Treatment

Treatment for gender dysphoria aims to help people live the way they want to, in their preferred gender identity or as non-binary.

www.nhs.uk

"Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria"
"It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations."

An English ruling on transgender teens could have global repercussions

Worries grow over treatments that can leave children sterile

www.economist.com

“Plenty of doctors fail to observe even wpath’s guidelines. Laura Edwards-Leeper, a professor of psychology at Pacific University in Oregon who helped found America’s first transgender clinic for children and teens in Boston, says she gets many emails from parents “desperate to find a therapist who will not just blindly affirm that their child is trans”. Ideally, she said, an adolescent with gender dysphoria would have been regularly seeing a therapist, who encouraged them to explore other possible causes for their feelings and had a comprehensive psychological assessment before being put on blockers or hormones. “It is very rare that even one of these things happens,” she says”

Yes alarm bells. Physicians, psychologists, social workers, teachers, parents, detransitioners, even gender specialists have been speaking more openly about their concerns and experiences. People are no longer so afraid of being branded a religious, right wing, terf, trump loving, bigot, etc etc.
That doesn't work to shut down conversation anymore. Too many of us are on the left/liberal/progressive end of the political spectrum to have the disingenuous right wing "concern" drown us out and to allow our concerns to be labeled as hateful or bigoted. I have seen a religious-like zeal in many of the activism around gender identity and child transition. A dogmatic us vs. them silencing approach. It reminds me of the far right fundamentalists in some troubling ways.

If the only people you hear expressing concerns about this issue are right wingers you aren't meeting many honest people and certainly are not interacting enough with those working with children and adolescents.

 

[buck]

Yes alarm bells. Physicians, psychologists, social workers, teachers, parents, detransitioners, even gender specialists have been speaking more openly about their concerns and experiences. People are no longer so afraid of being branded a religious, right wing, terf, trump loving, bigot, etc etc.

He'd probably be surprised with the numbers of trans people that are against puberty blockers and transitioning prior to adulthood. While I do not know the numbers, I know of a couple that I watch on Youtuue.. and have heard anecdotal evidence from them and others that there are many others. Dog whistles indeed. :roll:

 

[Lisa]

He'd probably be surprised with the numbers of trans people that are against puberty blockers and transitioning prior to adulthood. While I do not know the numbers, I know of a couple that I watch on Youtuue.. and have heard anecdotal evidence from them and others that there are many others. Dog whistles indeed. :roll:

Watching YT videos isn't research.

 

[buck]

Watching YT videos isn't research.

Listening to trans voices, not just the most radical.. would seem to be a good idea.

As for whether it's good research... Guess that depends what is being researched.

You could probably use such research, so you don't believe that all trans think the same.. such as not wanting to be friends with someone that disagrees with your trans ideology.

 

[Lisa]

Listening to trans voices, not just the most radical.. would seem to be a good idea.

As for whether it's good research... Guess that depends what is being researched.

You could probably use such research, so you don't believe that all trans think the same.. such as not wanting to be friends with someone that disagrees with your trans ideology.

There is no such thing as transgendered ideology.

 

[maquiscat]

Does this mean that the wife is no longer a lesbian and the wife is, and always was, a cis, hetero woman?

Being unfamiliar with whether or not Page's wife ever actually said she was a lesbian, I must point out that there are a great many bisexuals who are monogamous. Thus Page's wife could have been bisexual this whole time.

With that said there are two other possibilities.

One, the wife still sees Page as female, at least as far as sexual attraction goes. That doesn't mean she dismisses Page as a man or secretly use the wrong pronouns under her breath. How you treat someone and even how you view them in general isn't the same as what you see that triggers your sexual attraction.

Two, the wife simply may be so close to Page emotionally that the gender no longer matters. This is often the case with spouses of transgender people who remain with their spouse. In some cases, the sexual attraction may disappear, but then if they married for only sexual attraction, it wasn't much of a marriage to start with was it?

 

[dixon01767]

...except for years of study and research. Which, of course, y'all ignore.

???? It is the study and research that shows that transition creates no benefits to the mental disorder.

 

[American]

Would've been shocking just a short time ago.

Now it's like "who cares?"

I don't know, how about the suicide rate for these people?

 

[dixon01767]

I don't know, how about the suicide rate for these people?

Cant help but wonder what the suicide rate would be if the psych profession instead simply helped these people understand that though a lot of us are born with bodies we are not happy with, they are our bodies and we learn to cope. Cosmetic surgery is only superficial. Much less I suspect than convincing them they have a mental disorder requiring massive modification of the body.

 

[dixon01767]

One, the wife still sees Page as female, at least as far as sexual attraction goes. That doesn't mean she dismisses Page as a man or secretly use the wrong pronouns under her breath. How you treat someone and even how you view them in general isn't the same as what you see that triggers your sexual attraction.

Lets hope page doesn't surgically remove the breasts, surgically add a male appendage and grow a beard from hormone treatment without checking with the wife first.

 

[American]

Cant help but wonder what the suicide rate would be if the psych profession instead simply helped these people understand that though a lot of us are born with bodies we are not happy with, they are our bodies and we learn to cope. Cosmetic surgery is only superficial. Much less I suspect than convincing them they have a mental disorder requiring massive modification of the body.

They can live however they want, just don't ask me for money for that or pollute my kids' minds with it in school. I don't care if they surgically alter themselves to look like a dog or giraffe.

 

[dixon01767]

They can live however they want, just don't ……....

Insist upon competing in women's sports if you were born male.

 

[maquiscat]

???? It is the study and research that shows that transition creates no benefits to the mental disorder.

Transition creates alleviation from GD, a great benefit to a trans individual.

 

[NatMorton]

Transition creates alleviation from GD, a great benefit to a trans individual.

Yes, absolutely. Nothing risky about indulging a delusion. Nothing at all.

 

[vegas giants]

Yes, absolutely. Nothing risky about indulging a delusion. Nothing at all.

That's right actually

 

[maquiscat]

I don't know, how about the suicide rate for these people?

No one in these debates has yet to show a study that compares suicide rates pre transition to post transition AND accounts for other factors. We know that bullying and intense harassment can also cause suicide, as can clinical depression. Cause of suicide is as important as what group is committing it.