• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judicial Activism.

Roe v Wade, both in terms of finding a right protected by the constitution that's not actually in the Constitution and in codifying the various phases of fetal development.


Mostly true but meaningless - how a case got to the court isnt anywhere near as impotant as what the court does with it. When the court has to twist and stretch the constitution to cover their ruling, judicial activism is at play.

I do not want to get the thread off topic, but you realize this is begging the question correct?

A moral reading of the constitution is necessary for parts of the constitution that simply lay down a general moral principle.

Do I have the right to free speech? Do I have the right to say, "Obama an idiot?" There is no difference between the two, an infringement of one right is an infringement of the other.
 
Last edited:
I do not want to get the thread off topic, but you realize this is begging the question correct?

A moral reading of the constitution is necessary for parts of the constitution that simply lay down a general moral principle.

Do I have the right to free speech? Do I have the right to say, "Obama an idiot?" There is no difference between the two, an infringement of one right is an infringement of the other.

I really do not see how -any- of this applies to what I said in the context in which I said it
 
I really do not see how -any- of this applies to what I said in the context in which I said it

You said that the judges in Roe V Wade were engaging in judicial activism because they simply "made up" a right that was not in the constitution. I am saying that that is the only logical way to interpret the constitution in that circumstance.
 
You said that the judges in Roe V Wade were engaging in judicial activism because they simply "made up" a right that was not in the constitution. I am saying that that is the only logical way to interpret the constitution in that circumstance.

Once more proving the point stated over and over again in this thread.

When you agree with the interpretation, you don't think it's judicial activism. When you disagree, you do.
 
Once more proving the point stated over and over again in this thread.

When you agree with the interpretation, you don't think it's judicial activism. When you disagree, you do.

Sure, but you have to realize that a theory of interpretation is necessary. Thats why I would not call it judicial activism in this situation.
 
Sure, but you have to realize that a theory of interpretation is necessary. Thats why I would not call it judicial activism in this situation.

Yes, that has been my point all along if you go back in this thread.

Judges interpret the law. That's what they do. Sometimes they go too far in my opinion. Sometimes they go too far in your opinion.

Let's stop saying "judicial activism" every time they decide something we disagree with and instead let's just admit that this is what judges do.

Let's just be honest and admit that we really don't care about "judicial activism" because secretly we WANT so-called "activism" when it's going to give us a decision we agree with.

EDIT: please understand that I am using the words "you" and "your" in these last two posts in the general sense, and not aimed at drz.
 
Last edited:
Yes, that has been my point all along if you go back in this thread.

Judges interpret the law. That's what they do. Sometimes they go too far in my opinion. Sometimes they go too far in your opinion.

Let's stop saying "judicial activism" every time they decide something we disagree with and instead let's just admit that this is what judges do.

Let's just be honest and admit that we really don't care about "judicial activism" because secretly we WANT so-called "activism" when it's going to give us a decision we agree with.

Exactly, I agree.

You can't just say the judge made up a right not in the constitution. That would require a theory of interpretating the consitution. You have to say why your interpretation is better than theirs, otherwise you are just begging the question.

Of course judges will come to different conclusions about the constitution. There is no nuetral standpoint that can prove which side is right and which side is wrong. The judges just have to pick the arguement that they think is the best interpretation of the constitution. The constitution is not a collection of settlements, it is a charter, and therefore requires some sort of interpretation.
 
You said that the judges in Roe V Wade were engaging in judicial activism because they simply "made up" a right that was not in the constitution. I am saying that that is the only logical way to interpret the constitution in that circumstance.
Except for the other option, which was to decide that there is no such right and/or that if there was such a right that the US Constitution did not afford it any degree of protection.
 
Except for the other option, which was to decide that there is no such right and/or that if there was such a right that the US Constitution did not afford it any degree of protection.

First, how does the right to an abortion lie outside the interpretation of the constitution? What theory of interpretation do we use to decide that is the case?

Also, why do you think that interpretation of the constitution is superior? For example, the 14th amendment was used as justification in Brown v. Board of Education for a right to legally inegrated education. Obviously the court used the general principles stated in the 14th amendment to find segregation was wrong. It would seem that your interpretation would leave judges free to accept popular constitutional rights like the right to integrated education, but oppose the more controversial rights such as abortion.
 
First, how does the right to an abortion lie outside the interpretation of the constitution?
It isnt specifically listed, nor is any specific constitutional protection.
You might be able to argue that the right exists under the 9th amendment, but the 9th does not, as noted, prescribe any specific protection for the rights that fall under it.

What theory of interpretation do we use to decide that is the case?
The one that uses plain English

Also, why do you think that interpretation of the constitution is superior?
Because it doesnt go looking for excuses to protect a right that's not there.
 
In order to define "Judicial Activism" we must first define whether the Constitution is a literal or interpretive document.
 
It isnt specifically listed, nor is any specific constitutional protection.
You might be able to argue that the right exists under the 9th amendment, but the 9th does not, as noted, prescribe any specific protection for the rights that fall under it.


The one that uses plain English


Because it doesnt go looking for excuses to protect a right that's not there.

The 9th amendment is not necessary. The court ruled the texas law in Roe v Wade was a violation of substansive due process as well as prior court precident involving the right of a women to control her own role in procreation, as well as a right to use contraceptives.
 
this was an interesting exchange of view points, which fundamentally illustrates the differences between progressives and neocons:
In rare public debate, Justice Scalia admits to not caring about intentions behind laws | Raw Story
... Scalia said he has no interest in what legislators intended when making a particular law. Breyer countered, saying judges need to go back and find out the purpose legislators had when crafting a bill.

"I don't at all look to what I think the legislature thought," Scalia said. "I frankly don't care what the legislature thought."

Breyer responded quickly, saying, "That's the problem," which brought thunderous laughter from the crowd.

"You've got to go back to the purpose of the legislation, find out what's there," Breyer said. "That's the democratic way, cause you can then hold that legislature responsible, rather than us, who you can't control." ...
 
do you think laws should be enforced in ways other than they were intended?

Intent is ambiguous, and there's virtually no sentence in the English language that isn't subject to at least some form of interpretation. Hell, the constitution wasn't even written with the same rules of grammar that we use now, you CAN'T use the constitution without interpretation.
 
do you think laws should be enforced in ways other than they were intended?



How do you discern intent?


if you leave it open to interpretation, it becomes meaningless and just victim to the whim of whatever judges clocked in that day.
 
How do you discern intent?

as expressed by the law makers when fashioning the legislation

if you leave it open to interpretation, it becomes meaningless and just victim to the whim of whatever judges clocked in that day.

no, it leaves the law being enforced in the same way as was intended by the legislation
 
as expressed by the law makers when fashioning the legislation



no, it leaves the law being enforced in the same way as was intended by the legislation



If you and I were both judges, we would guaranteed interperet laws differently. Sorry.
 
If you and I were both judges, we would guaranteed interperet laws differently. Sorry.

no doubt. i would render conclusions consistent with original intent
you would render a decision with an underlying political motivation ... not unlike scalia
 
How do you discern intent?


if you leave it open to interpretation, it becomes meaningless and just victim to the whim of whatever judges clocked in that day.

Literalism is an interpretative philosophy prone to error. Say I draft a piece of legislation relating to bill-posting. It says that bill-posting is prohibited on 'lamp-posts'. A 'lamp-post' is defined in the Act as 'any street post with an attached streetlight'. A literalist interpretation of this would produce such absurdities as the finding that bill-posting on telegraph poles, however, might be entirely appropriate, even if the legislation in its context is clearly intended to prohibit bill posting on both lamp-posts and telegraph poles.

In this country we have legislatively-enforced rules stating that an interpretation which promotes the purpose of the legislature must be preferred to one which does not. There are numerous ways in which a so-called 'purposive construction' can be developed by the courts:

  1. Reading the statute as a whole in order to understand its context;
  2. Interpretation of individual words or sections within this context;
  3. Consultation of the statute's long title and/or preamble;
  4. Consultation of the 'objects clause' which is present in some statutes;
  5. Consultation of definitions of important words provided within the statute, or within similar acts in pari materia (in other jurisdictions);
  6. Referring to reading speeches or parliamentary debates on the legislation; and
  7. Referring to 'explanatory memoranda' released by the Government on the subject and purpose of the legislation.

Clearly there are ways and means to determine legislative intent to resolve ambiguities within legislation.

Statutory interpretation is never subject to the whims of whatever judge happened to 'clock in'. Common law rules on statutory interpretation are very well-defined, regardless of jurisdiction, and a judgment that fails the apply the appropriate rules will of course be appealable.
 
Last edited:
I find it funny that the GOP, Tea Partiers, etc. seem to have a new-found fondness for their long-derided "judicial activism" when it comes to the new healthcare bill. Let's challenge it in the courts!

Agree? Disagree?

The real problem is no one really knows what judicial activism means. I would agree with the poster who said Bush v. Gore is an example as the Supreme Court never should have granted certiorari as it was a political question. I also think Roe v. Wade, in how it constructed the trimester framework, is another example as that case basically drafted abortion legislation.

But, I wouldn't say, generally, that judicial review of legislation is judicial activism; it's simply a vital function of the Judiciary. So, simply seeking redress in the courts is not begging for judicial activism.
 
no doubt. i would render conclusions consistent with original intent

I call bullcrap. You would see liberal interpretation in everything you uttered.


you would render a decision with an underlying political motivation ... not unlike scalia


See? :lamo
 
Literalism is an interpretative philosophy prone to error. Say I draft a piece of legislation relating to bill-posting. It says that bill-posting is prohibited on 'lamp-posts'. A 'lamp-post' is defined in the Act as 'any street post with an attached streetlight'. A literalist interpretation of this would produce such absurdities as the finding that bill-posting on telegraph poles, however, might be entirely appropriate, even if the legislation in its context is clearly intended to prohibit bill posting on both lamp-posts and telegraph poles.

In this country we have legislatively-enforced rules stating that an interpretation which promotes the purpose of the legislature must be preferred to one which does not. There are numerous ways in which a so-called 'purposive construction' can be developed by the courts:

  1. Reading the statute as a whole in order to understand its context;
  2. Interpretation of individual words or sections within this context;
  3. Consultation of the statute's long title and/or preamble;
  4. Consultation of the 'objects clause' which is present in some statutes;
  5. Consultation of definitions of important words provided within the statute, or within similar acts in pari materia (in other jurisdictions);
  6. Referring to reading speeches or parliamentary debates on the legislation; and
  7. Referring to 'explanatory memoranda' released by the Government on the subject and purpose of the legislation.

Clearly there are ways and means to determine legislative intent to resolve ambiguities within legislation.

Statutory interpretation is never subject to the whims of whatever judge happened to 'clock in'. Common law rules on statutory interpretation are very well-defined, regardless of jurisdiction, and a judgment that fails the apply the appropriate rules will of course be appealable.




then perhaps you can explain to me how some left wingers see a right to healthcare in the constitution, but no right for me to own a gun. :roll:
 
Back
Top Bottom