John Oliver on Transgender Females in Women's Sports (2 Viewers)

[maxparrish]

I do not think it is really about fairness. When one side has to exaggerate, mislead, and lie to their audience, something is deeply wrong with the argument. Just look at the recent example of Trump's attack against a transgender woman winning the Arizona Trail race. He left out the fact it was a co-ed competition and her record was broken by a genetic male who was not transgender.

You used the word "unfair". Nobody is going to argue that transgender women do not have advantages in female sports. But on the flip side, they have disadvantages too. More over, there are people, like Michael Phelps or Josh Allen, who have biological advantages. The thing about sports is, it's not meant to be even. Biology plays a major role. Body types can vary from person-to-person. A woman can be stronger, faster than a man

First, this isn't about political sides or Donald Trump. Germaine Greer, Richard Dawkins, Martina Navratilova, Jk Rowling, and Abigail Shrier are hardly on the same political side as Trump, save on one issue, women's rights vs. trans rights. Ignoring these prominent voices and focusing on one's political adversaries is a way to avoid the issues.

Second, there is precious little "flip side". Males who adopt a female persona, "transgenders", in all but perhaps one sport (very long-distance swimming) have a distinct advantage, on that there is no question. That is not to say that the top elite female sprinters couldn't beat the average male suburban male, but that isn't how competitive competitions operate. "The thing about competitive sports is that they ARE meant to be competitive, which is precisely why sports are divided by sex - everyone knows if the female sex could only run in men's races or play in men's basketball, very few (if any) would be able to compete - heck, even the average teen schoolboy has faster sprint times than the average professional female sprinter.

If this were otherwise, then why isn't Oliver (or you?) advocating for sports to no longer be based on anything? I don't see anyone advocating that, for example, women basketball be merged with men's, and see who makes the varsity school team - we already know few or none will be women.

Finally, there are more than enough studies to demonstrate the self-evident, and it is ridiculous for trans advocates to desperately search for a substantive body of evidence otherwise.

Adopting a female personae isn't relevant to the sex divisions in sport - even Renee Richards knows that.

 

[BrotherFease]

Second, there is precious little "flip side". Males who adopt a female persona, "transgenders",

Why are you putting transgenders in quotes? That is just confusing, and I don't want to jump to any conclusions here.

If this were otherwise, then why isn't Oliver (or you?) advocating for sports to no longer be based on anything? I don't see anyone advocating that, for example, women basketball be merged with men's, and see who makes the varsity school team - we already know few or none will be women.

Most or all of the organizations which allow transgender woman / girls to compete with other women have hormonal requirements. They have to be on estrogen for at least a year AND have their testosterone level checked before every event. If their testosterone level is the same as a genetic female, then they can compete. This is a barrier to entry.

Nobody is arguing that men and women's team should merge together. Nobody is arguing that men and women on average are equal to each other. Just that a transgender woman can only compete, if their hormonal balance mirrors a genetic female.

 

[CLAX1911]

Co-Ed or the male category.

There is no male category that would be the coed if women had the ability to compete with them

The thing here is, there is already a barrier to enter for a transgender woman to compete in female categories:

That barrier being that they're men not women

Hormonal levels. If do not have gender dysphoria and/or not prescribed estrogen, you cannot compete on the female side.

What difference would hormone levels make?

 

[maxparrish]

All competitions are loaded with unfair advantages.

Which is why we have sex segregated sports, to reduce those unfair advantages and make it more competitive - just as we have other classifications in sports competition by age, weight, schools, etc.

To some degree, I think the issue rests on what sports are for.

Agreed. Sports for young children aren't for real competition, they are for recreation, meaning fun - which is why mixed sex sports are quite common. However, as they grow older its increasingly for competition, opportunities to experience the joy of winning as well as the reality of losing. Certainly, by the time puberty is reached not only is competition important but sex differences in sports ability becomes very uneven, radically so.

Sometime following the onset of puberty, in order give women an opportunity to participate in the merit based competitive sports (eg making the school team). The sports are classified by sex and even by sport (fast pitch softball, for example, being just a girls or women's sport).

We used to preach that "its not if you win or lose, its how you play the game."

That is a value we teach young children as a way of coping with loss, also knowing that later in life winning and losing will matter even more. As much as we may wish it different, life is not a Montessori school where everyone gets a ribbon for participation.

The elevation of personal glory and money, such as in scholarships, has replaced the importance of sport as a character builder, as a socializing agent. That's one reason why its so tragic that trans kids be excluded. They are so desperate to fit in and their suicide rate is astronomical.

I think that loss of vision of the importance of sports has clouded the anti-trans vision of sports. And its convenient. People understand it easily.

Most of us are excluded from something due to our nature or social convention, and often not by choice; I wasn't allowed in musicals because I was a drama student, I was too ordinary, so I wasn't in the social elites or in student government. I had no talent at foreign languages so I wasn't in those clubs, I wasn't a cool kid or a "freak", so that too excluded me in many social circles. And I was so bad at athletics I didn't even try to make a team in any sport.

So, I learned to accept and nurture what I had an interest, permission, and ability to participate in: the UN Club, the speech club, and theatre. I made friends with other "semi" outcasts; the colorless crowd of non jocks, non-social elites, not good looking, academic mediocrities, miserable athletes who weren't even handy with cars or tools.

Some were not by choice, some were not, but it is who I am.

Those who do have a choice and choose to try to be who they think they are, may do so. However, they shouldn't expect there are not disadvantages - one of them STILL not being allowed participation on women's teams. They can stay a male, and participate on men's teams, regardless of their adopted gender personae. But males should not be allowed to participate on women's teams in competitive sports.

This particular kind of male privilege has its limits - that ought to be drummed into the heads of those who think they are entitled to get it all.

 

[maxparrish]

Why are you putting transgenders in quotes? That is just confusing, and I don't want to jump to any conclusions here.

Most or all of the organizations which allow transgender woman / girls to compete with other women have hormonal requirements. They have to be on estrogen for at least a year AND have their testosterone level checked before every event. If their testosterone level is the same as a genetic female, then they can compete. This is a barrier to entry.

Nobody is arguing that men and women's team should merge together. Nobody is arguing that men and women on average are equal to each other. Just that a transgender woman can only compete, if their hormonal balance mirrors a genetic female.

Except a year or more of hormonal treatment does not erase the biological advantages for males. There are things that don't change such as height, bone density, the more efficient hips (running), and even most strength and muscle mass.

It is again, a perverse lie to one's self, or to others, to pretend otherwise. Only hormone treatment begun as a child, before puberty can significantly reduce male advantage. Perhaps not fully equalize it but make the gap much smaller and perhaps acceptable.

I suggest you see at least one the following videos:







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[Spock]

It always amazes me when people's desire to believe something so strongly that it completely overpowers their ability to think; what I characterize as the difference between a person's tested and abstract IQ and their working or functional IQ. In some folks that difference isn't great, in others it is shockingly vast, usually because their "emotionally subjective" brain is repeatedly making immaterial or misleading judgements, busy throwing up denial memes to protect them from seeing the obvious.

Most of the cited points made by Oliver are entirely irrelevant as to whether or not transgender "women" have an unfair advantage over biological women in competitive sports. Hence, why men chose to adopt a female persona (trans women) is immaterial; LIa Thomas's record is immaterial; what you allege to be Riley Gaines motives is immaterial. That Payton McNabb made a recovery from a severe concussion caused by a transwoman athlete is immaterial. That some alleged complaint is allegedly wrong is immaterial. That there was some errant factoid over 800 medals, or that you think women's sport's is underfunded, or that the right's main motive is to deny transgenders right to exist is immaterial.
Nine of "Olivers" thirteen "Main Points" are red herrings; distractions over personalities, an incident or two, and completely irrelevant issues to the question of fairness.

Of the remainder, it would seem that the argument or point is: there are not that many transgender "women" in sports, that severe injuries happen all the time, that a trans woman has to dominate a sport in order for it to be unfair, that no trans woman has gotten a sports scholarship, that because scientific studies of transgender females in sports have a small sample size they feature unreliable data, and so you refuse to believe that trans women have an unfair advantage.

Of course, most of this are also straw men and red herrings: the question is not if severe injuries happen all the time, it is if severe injuries to other players are more likely from a trans female than a non-trans female. The question is not if a transwoman is or has dominated a sport (although at least one has) but if a transgender's participation can deny a woman a chance of placing, or qualifying for advancement, on any level of competitive sports.

So as much as Oliver (or you) might deny it, IT IS about fairness. And there are numerous medical studies and sports performance studies that substantiate that trans women do have an unfair advantage - so obvious that Oliver (or perhaps you) try to pretend it's about something else.

It is my guess that you did not approach this question objectively and, after extensive research on male and female physiology, sports medicine, and athletic training, came to the conclusion that transwomen are unfairly advantaged. You have always been certain that transgender women are superior to all cisgender women, right? In fact, you likely researched the topic primarily to find evidence to support your pre-ordained conclusion.

Apparently your inflexible view of biological advantage is an example of "people's desire to believe something so strongly that it completely overpowers their ability to think".

I find it difficult to believe that every XX individual is inferior to every XY individual, which is essentially your argument.

 

[BrotherFease]

Except a year or more of hormonal treatment does not erase the biological advantages for males. There are things that don't change such as height, bone density, the more efficient hips (running), and even most strength and muscle mass.

I never disputed that point. Your videos pointed to things I have already know. Yes, going through male puberty breeds advantages over females.

Do you think Michael Phelps had a biological advantage in swimming? Does Josh Allen of the Buffalo Bills have a biological advantage in football?

The argument boils down to "fairness". Whether something is fair or unfair is a subjective measure.

And yes, transgender people do shrink in size after being exposed to estrogen.

 

[Spock]

Except a year or more of hormonal treatment does not erase the biological advantages for males. There are things that don't change such as height, bone density, the more efficient hips (running), and even most strength and muscle mass.

It is again, a perverse lie to one's self, or to others, to pretend otherwise. Only hormone treatment begun as a child, before puberty can significantly reduce male advantage. Perhaps not fully equalize it but make the gap much smaller and perhaps acceptable.

I suggest you see at least one the following videos:

My policy is to rate Youtube videos very low on the scientifically reliable scale.

 

[VanceMack]

1-There are no such thing as trans-women...there are delusional men that THINK they are women and have been lied to.
2-There are significant instances of women's sports being dominated by men...to the detriment of women.
3-Proponents want to claim that men that pretend they are women have no advantage, some even going so far as to make the moronic argument that there is really no difference in men and women's athletic abilities...but for some reason balk at the idea of ending gendered sporting categories.
4-Downplaying the physical damage done to women as well as simply the elimination of the opportunity to excel BY women in women's sports pretty clearly demonstrates that the pro trans movement doesnt give a **** about women.

 

[Spock]

1-There are no such thing as trans-women...there are delusional men that THINK they are women and have been lied to.
2-There are significant instances of women's sports being dominated by men...to the detriment of women.
3-Proponents want to claim that men that pretend they are women have no advantage, some even going so far as to make the moronic argument that there is really no difference in men and women's athletic abilities...but for some reason balk at the idea of ending gendered sporting categories.
4-Downplaying the physical damage done to women as well as simply the elimination of the opportunity to excel BY women in women's sports pretty clearly demonstrates that the pro trans movement doesnt give a **** about women.

What are we going to do with those cis-women who are stronger, faster, and more coordinated than other cis-women?

There is more variation within the specific group of XX humans than between the entire collection of humans who are either XX or XY. IOW, intragroup variation is greater than intergroup.

 

[Phys251]

1-There are no such thing as trans-women...

No need to read past this tripe any further.

there are delusional men that THINK they are women and have been lied to.
2-There are significant instances of women's sports being dominated by men...to the detriment of women.
3-Proponents want to claim that men that pretend they are women have no advantage, some even going so far as to make the moronic argument that there is really no difference in men and women's athletic abilities...but for some reason balk at the idea of ending gendered sporting categories.
4-Downplaying the physical damage done to women as well as simply the elimination of the opportunity to excel BY women in women's sports pretty clearly demonstrates that the pro trans movement doesnt give a **** about women.

 

[CLAX1911]

What are we going to do with those cis-women who are stronger, faster, and more coordinated than other cis-women?

Nothing. Women competing with women is more level a playing grind than men competing with women

There is more variation within the specific group of XX humans than between the entire collection of humans who are either XX or XY.

Lol that's denial of really.

IOW, intragroup variation is greater than intergroup.

Dumbest post to date.

 

[Bodi]

John Oliver is a pretentious douche bag that rarely says anything correct.

He just needs to shut the **** up...



d

 

[tharock220]

True, but so what? My point is: Why does that matter? I know you're not implying that she went "man to woman" so to improve her standing in college swimming.

I was disagreeing that William Thomas was a star swimmer, at the collegiate level at least. He was undoubtedly a good high school swimmer.

The Olympics allows transgender women to compete on the ladies side, if they met hormonal requirements.

Nope. World Aquatics has banned transgender women who went through puberty as men from competing against women.

Just look at what Trump said a couple of months ago. This is an example of the argument being based on dishonesty. Trump said that a "man pretending to be a woman" won a cycling competition in Arizona by 5 and a half hours, which he called a "record-breaker" and called it a "shame". What he doesn't tell you that it was a co-ed event and the transgender women's record was broken later that month by a man.

This is why Oliver mocks the anti-transgender right. Have an honest conversation about the subject matter, and we can come up with a solution.

John Oliver doesn't have an honest conversation about anything. That's why his show is a monologue rather than a discussion like Bill Maher's. Oliver knocks over strawmen by creating the opposing arguments himself. His inability to sustain an actual discussion is the primary reason why Trevor Noah leapfrogged Oliver and got the Daily Show hosting gig. He had the part where the host just hurled insult down, but he became a stuttering, stammering mess during interview segments.

 

[Phys251]

John Oliver doesn't have an honest conversation about anything.

 

[Spock]

I was disagreeing that William Thomas was a star swimmer, at the collegiate level at least. He was undoubtedly a good high school swimmer.



Nope. World Aquatics has banned transgender women who went through puberty as men from competing against women.

John Oliver doesn't have an honest conversation about anything. That's why his show is a monologue rather than a discussion like Bill Maher's. Oliver knocks over strawmen by creating the opposing arguments himself. His inability to sustain an actual discussion is the primary reason why Trevor Noah leapfrogged Oliver and got the Daily Show hosting gig. He had the part where the host just hurled insult down, but he became a stuttering, stammering mess during interview segments.

It is all opinion, not science. For example, would you be open to the possibility of transwomen competition in women's sports?

 

[Spock]

Everyone thinking about trans issues should become familiar with the case of Caster Semenya:

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[maquiscat]

Everyone thinking about trans issues should become familiar with the case of Caster Semenya:

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While I am not agreeing or disagreeing as to the medical claims of Semenya and her testosterone levels given her an advantage over other cis women, it highlights what I said about using ability instead of sex for divisions, especially if it can be proven her testosterone levels give her an advantage.

 

[j brown's body]

Right-wing persecution of trans is accurately described as "a blood sacrifice for women after taking away their right to control their own bodies."

"Chin up ladies, look whose suffering worse."

 

[CLAX1911]

John Oliver is a pretentious douche bag that rarely says anything correct.

He just needs to shut the **** up...



d

I would make the point that he's a comedian and he's going for the things that get the biggest laughs not for the things that are the most true.

Say what you want about his humor it's rarely to my taste but there's people that think he's hilarious.

Either way you don't go to clown college to get an education and social structures.

 

[CLAX1911]

Right-wing persecution of trans

Persecution in what way? Provide some examples and explain how they are right wing.

is accurately described as "a blood sacrifice for women after taking away their right to control their own bodies."

What are you talking about control of their own bodies are you talking about some sort of forced breeding program? Or slavery

"Chin up ladies, look whose suffering worse."

Oppression Olympics is only relevant to the left.