Jewish guy enters Mecca, causes kerfuffle because non-Muslims may not go there.

[Logician Man]

Saudi Arabia is one of the safest and most orderly countries in the world. >>>

Not for homosexuals or Jews.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Not for homosexuals or Jews.

I don’t think there’s any danger for them at all unless they try to challenge Islam.

 

[Juin]

If you visited Aparthied South Africa you would have to follow South Africa’s laws just like you would have to follow Saudi Arabia’s.

I believe the matter is a little different. It is over whether one can object to the system. The impression I get from some is that Saudis should be left alone because it is their country.

The technicalities of Apartheid aside, because many American activists believe Aparthied was a system analogous to JimCrow in the south, which was blatantly wrong under US constitutional law as well as morally, which it was not, there were key differences, Saudi Arabia is not engaging in Aparthied, it is a near completely homogenous Arab Islamic state, there isn’t any communities of Jews being trod underfoot. The laws involving the holy city are meant to protect the sacred nature of the city as a site of prayer and homage, this man was a foreigner who came to desecrate the city and to film devoted Muslims in prayer as an object of voyeurism for television audiences

Saudis also have their own dissidents. And it is more than just about the Jewish guy. It boils down to Separation of Mosque and State. There is also, for example, the question of places of worship for other religions. Ideally, the more conservative segments of Saudi Arabia prefer Saudi Arabia preserve its purity and allow no places of worship for other religions. But even the government appears to concede that all those "guest workers" have to be allowed to worship somehow. At the moment I believe the idea is that they have places of worship but just not make it public

 

[Juin]

I think that the reason people go to Christianity's flaws when Islam's are raised is because Islam has been trashed in parts of our country. Trump called for a complete ban, there has been absurd legislation proposed to ban Sharia law, and there was controversy over a mosque in lower Manhattan. Am reminded of an obscure reference from "Jaws." (Yeah, I know it's wierd.) The mayor says to the sheriff, something like "you say barracuda, and people respond 'wha?' You say shark, and we'll have a panic on our hands." So you say Hindu, and people think India and sacred cows. Buddhism, and they think of a chubby tummyYou say Islam, and not without reason, people think terror. The anti-Catolic prejudice, pretty extreme at times, more or less ended with JFK.

None of this should prevent us from criticizing the absurdities we see in say, Afghanistan, e.g., it's cruelty towards women. But some of this stuff is as much cultural as religious. Years ago, I worked on the issue of female genital mutiliation(FGM). This horrible practice is often associated with Islam, but Christians and animists in some countries practice it as well. Islam is so huge that a bias against it is like a bias against Christianity, given the latter's variety. Frankly, what I would like to see is western reporters -- assuming they could get them -- do interviews and respectfully inquire of Islamic leaders about the practices they fail to condemn. (I assume the latter would counter about the West's exploitation of women as sex objects.)

Islam is a major world religion with a billon to two of adherants. It should answer for its shortcomings like anyother religion or political ideology. And especially because it is a major world religion it cannot be treated with kid gloves like as if it was some small sect about to vanish. This is a religion that is the ruling ideology of dozens of countries. In my estimation for far too long Islam has lagged behind when it comes to certain fundamental concepts of individual rights, freedom to worship as one pleases. Why should an ideology that ordains death for apostates have a place in the 21st Century?

 

[Juin]

Apartheid South Africa did what was necessary to uphold the nation that was distinctly forged by Boers. It was justified

But was Apartheid South Africa free to do as it pleased her? No, she was not. That is why Apartheid is gone.

 

[Nickyjo]

Islam is a major world religion with a billon to two of adherants. It should answer for its shortcomings like anyother religion or political ideology. And especially because it is a major world religion it cannot be treated with kid gloves like as if it was some small sect about to vanish. This is a religion that is the ruling ideology of dozens of countries. In my estimation for far too long Islam has lagged behind when it comes to certain fundamental concepts of individual rights, freedom to worship as one pleases. Why should an ideology that ordains death for apostates have a place in the 21st Century?

Probably because in most places it doesn’t carry out executions of apostates. Don’t mistake the part for the whole.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I believe the matter is a little different. It is over whether one can object to the system. The impression I get from some is that Saudis should be left alone because it is their country.

Oh, let me be unambiguous about that, the Saudi should be left alone about how they run the internal politics of their country. No impressions are needed I will explicitly say it for your convenience.

Saudis also have their own dissidents. And it is more than just about the Jewish guy. It boils down to Separation of Mosque and State.

There is no such thing as separation of “mosque and state” in Saudi Arabia.

There is also, for example, the question of places of worship for other religions. Ideally, the more conservative segments of Saudi Arabia prefer Saudi Arabia preserve its purity and allow no places of worship for other religions.

Correct

But even the government appears to concede that all those "guest workers" have to be allowed to worship somehow. At the moment I believe the idea is that they have places of worship but just not make it public

This is something for the Saudis to decide. In any event, this has no bearing On a foreign reporter committing fraud to enter Mecca and then filming Muslims on the hajj like they are animals on a National Geographic special.

 

[TypicalRussian]

But was Apartheid South Africa free to do as it pleased her? No, she was not. That is why Apartheid is gone.

Are boers not allowed to be in the institutions that they exclusively created? Was there a government before they came in the 17th century?

 

[TypicalRussian]

No, apartheid was not “justified” in any way, shape or form, Hitler fanboy.

Yes it was

 

[Juin]

Are boers not allowed to be in the institutions that they exclusively created? Was there a government before they came in the 17th century?

I am not sure what you are getting at. I was pointing out that there is a precedent aside from Saudi Arabia of a nation not being let alone to do as it pleased because that is, or was its sovereign right. Maybe the Apartheid system was legit, or may be it wasnt, but the inescapable fact is that the South Africans were not left alone

 

[TypicalRussian]

I am not sure what you are getting at. I was pointing out that there is a precedent aside from Saudi Arabia of a nation not being let alone to do as it pleased because that is, or was its sovereign right. Maybe the Apartheid system was legit, or may be it wasnt, but the inescapable fact is that the South Africans were not left alone

who cares if they weren't "left alone"

1.Boers originally created the SA government in effect today
2.Boers have a right to make up that government and rule it

anything wrong with that?

 

[Tigerace117]

Yes it was

And your evidence for the ludicrous idea that apartheid was “justified” is…..what?

 

[Juin]

who cares if they weren't "left alone"

It was an argument I used as a rebuttal to another poster. He had pointed out that what Saudis did was no body's business as they were sovereign. I pointed out that being sovereign doesnt protect anyone from interference by others. South Africa being a case in point.

1.Boers originally created the SA government in effect today
2.Boers have a right to make up that government and rule it

anything wrong with that?

2 does not follow from 1. It is more whether one is able to than a right.

 

[yankintx]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-712575

Waiting to see if Saudi Arabia gets a condemnation from the UN Commission on Human Rights for discriminating against non-Muslims. Travel restrictions based on religion are serious violations of human rights. This kind of law, barring people from entry to a city because they are haram or just because they are Jewish or Christian or polytheist -- well, that contributes to the world climate of Christophobia, Jewiphobia, Buddhiphobia, and Hinduphobia. In this case, the Jewphobes were out in droves, making hateful comments criticizing this Jewish man's visit to the holy city of Mecca.

I live in Saudi, have done for 4 years.

Non Muslims are not allowed into Mecca. The authorities are vigilant at the chrck points. They will ask for an Igama or other proof you are Muslim.

You visit others countries you respect obey their laws, traditions. If your not interested in doing so don't visit. Clear cut

 

[Manc Skipper]

Are boers not allowed to be in the institutions that they exclusively created? Was there a government before they came in the 17th century?

Apartheid began in 1948.

 

[yankintx]

A couple of years ago, trying to figure out why Muslims think like they do, I bought a copy of the Quran. I gingerly opened the cover, expecting flames to jump out at me, and began reading. I fell asleep in about 10 pages. This book is about as exciting as reading the Code of Federal Regulations! I still don't understand Islamic extremism, but suspect that a lot of it comes from many generations of twisted interpretations by "clergy".

Similiar to the old and new testament. But you can't beat that Christian fire and threats of hell

 

[Juin]

I live in Saudi, have done for 4 years.
Non Muslims are not allowed into Mecca. The authorities are vigilant at the chrck points. They will ask for an Igama or other proof you are Muslim.<<

And you approved of that?

You visit others countries you respect obey their laws, traditions. If your not interested in doing so don't visit. Clear cut

Would you have held the same position towards Apartheid South Africa, or the ante bellum South?

 

[yankintx]

And you approved of that?





Would you have held the same position towards Apartheid South Africa, or the ante bellum South?

You won't get with me with that trap

Do better ok

 

[Juin]

Apartheid began in 1948.

You touch on something. South Africa as such was not created by Boers. The Boers set up bits and pieces, but South Africa was cobbled together by the English. The Boers obtained the political power to set up Apartheid in 1948.

 

[Juin]

You won't get with me with that trap
Do better ok

The ramifications of a position you take are an opportunity to review the position.

 

[yankintx]

The ramifications of a position you take are an opportunity to review the position.

I don't think so

Good night

 

[yankintx]

Not for homosexuals or Jews.

I am gay and live here

Sitting in Khamis, not far from Yemen

Ask away, get it first hand

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Apartheid began in 1948.

Largely because the South African government (correctly) realized the British were going to aggressively push majority rule in their former colonies

 

[TypicalRussian]

Apartheid began in 1948.

No it didn't. If you think blacks had equal role in government before 1948 you're delusional

 

[TypicalRussian]

It was an argument I used as a rebuttal to another poster. He had pointed out that what Saudis did was no body's business as they were sovereign. I pointed out that being sovereign doesnt protect anyone from interference by others. South Africa being a case in point.





2 does not follow from 1. It is more whether one is able to than a right.

2 does follow from 1. Businesses can run in the family after all, they don't forced integration by venture capitalist bankers at the hand of necklacers-where they put a burning tire on your head