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Jen Psaki has to remind Fox news that Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around

So how do we classify the armed drones…?”
If the armed drones are being used to defend the Ukrainian Homeland, then they are at that time, by definition, being used as "defensive weapons". If the Russians were using the drones in their offensive, attacking the Ukrainian Homeland, then they are being used as offensive weapons. Is that clear enough for you?
 
If the armed drones are being used to defend the Ukrainian Homeland, then they are at that time, by definition, being used as "defensive weapons".
You can’t possibly be missing the point here. Good grief….
Then what is wrong with sending them Migs?
 
You can’t possibly be missing the point here. Good grief….
Then what is wrong with sending them Migs?
Apperantly the u.s. thinks it's this might provoke the Russians into a nuclear conflict. As to why, you'd have to ask the government.
 
Apperantly the u.s. thinks it's this might provoke the Russians into a nuclear conflict. As to why, you'd have to ask the government.
The “government” was asked and Psaki answered. She said Migs would be offensive. You and I appear to be in agreement that their use in this case would be defensive. The funny part is this little video posted here is not the dunk you guys think it is.
 
She sure seemed to have asked a legitimate question, and the press secretary sure seemed to have dodged the question.
Yep.

A war that was going on since 2014, and when the Russians decide to help one side of the civil war. The side trying to defect from Ukraine, we help the other.

WWIII anyone?
 
Yep.

A war that was going on since 2014, and when the Russians decide to help one side of the civil war. The side trying to defect from Ukraine, we help the other.

WWIII anyone?

I don't know much about the war.
 
If all weapons Ukraine uses to defend their territory from Russia attacking are considered defensive weapons (< seems oxymoronic), then any and all weapons the USG has already and wants to send to Ukraine would be considered defensive. So, nuclear weapons could be considered defensive weapons. Do nuclear weapons sound defensive?

Next we can use the USG standard of defense: Attack other nations.

Put those two together: Ukraine could use USG nuclear weapons on Russia to defend Ukraine.

Surely the USG has the ability to launch nuclear weapons from the US and/or from US submarines and/or foreign military outposts and/or top secret ways. Why do nuclear weapons have to go through a 'middle man'?
 
Oh Fox, tryin' ta keep those Russian handlers happy, don't ya know.



She dodged the question. That much is clear.

I didn’t think it was a dodge. Tell me what she should have said.

How about why the drew a line between Migs and drones, if the main point is that Ukraine is defending itself.
 
Oh Fox, tryin' ta keep those Russian handlers happy, don't ya know.


I learned that from Kamala:
Speaking slowly, Harris began, “So, Ukraine is a country in Europe.”
“It exists next to another country called Russia,” she continued. “Russia is a bigger country. Russia is a powerful country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine. So, basically, that’s wrong, and it goes against everything that we stand for.”

 
I learned that from Kamala:
Speaking slowly, Harris began, “So, Ukraine is a country in Europe.”
“It exists next to another country called Russia,” she continued. “Russia is a bigger country. Russia is a powerful country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine. So, basically, that’s wrong, and it goes against everything that we stand for.”

Makes one long for the sophisticated way Trump would explain things.
 
Kind of already had my fill of Psaki's lies for the time being.
 
Oh Fox, tryin' ta keep those Russian handlers happy, don't ya know.


What dumb red doesn’t know is what the difference between offensive and defensive weapons are.
 
You would be wrong too. In any case this isn't a contest between the last administration and the current one. This administration refuses to answer very basic questions.
Looked at your tag line, you know what else Bastiat said?

"Under extraordinary circumstances, for urgent cases, the State should set aside some resources to assist certain unfortunate people, to help them adjust to changing conditions".

Bastiat was a huge supporter of free trade and a staunch opponent of socialism (which is fine, I have no use for socialism), but even he understood the concepts of using the profits free trade and allowing the state to manipulate some of that profit to support all classes in the effort for the individual to be protected from "plunder". In Law, he also wrote on the abuses of rich using "plunder" to their own benefit, thereby driving other classes towards the path of socialism. Which also means he had no problem with class warfare if it benefited the individual.

Might want to take a closer look at his works...you may want to change your tagline as a result.
 
i kind of feel bad for the Fox folks that ask her questions all the time. she constantly makes them look stupid.
I agree, but not so much in this case. This is the best question I've seen Fox ask yet, actually. I'll explain in a post.
 
It seems to me this is a more legitimate topic than some think it is.

What do the phrases 'defensive weapons' and 'offensive weapons' mean, both literally and as used for policy reasons?

I've thought about that before a bit, and it would be a nice neat definition if some weapons were only used against incoming attacks, and others were only used for offensive attacks. But when you think about it, that's not the case. Show me a weapon, and I'll show you a range from 'used more for defense to offense' to 'hard to tell which it's more for', e.g. machine guns.

And so the terms do seem muddy. Not meaningless, not useless, but muddy.

And it gets muddier because the terms seem to be used in order to settle the topic of what weapons are 'ok' to give in order to not provoke or escalate nuclear war. It's a nice neat answer - defensive weapons are ok and offensive weapons aren't - but the initial muddiness makes that a problem, and it's pretty important as the words are being used to decide what weapons are sent.

We are saying 'our anti-tank missiles, anti-air missiles, small arms, and drones we all call "defensive" so they're ok, but Mig aircraft we call offensive and that's the reason we refuse to give them'.

The language implies that the difference lies in the weapon - this weapon is defensive and that one is offensive - but the muddiness leads people to say 'oh, no, that's not it - it's whether they're used for defense or offense, it's their intent'.

And in that light it's a very fair question to ask, why is a drone used to shoot attacker troops and tanks a 'defensive' weapon we can give, while a Mig Aircraft used to shoot attacker troops, tanks and aircraft not a defensive weapon we can give?

It's not the fact it flies, or blows things up, or is clearly extremely more effective or pretty much any other clear difference in function. They're both used by the same side for the purpose.

So - a main point to this - throwing the label "defensive" on the drone and "offensive" on the MiG seems based entirely or nearly entirely on wanting the word to serve the purpose of justifying why one can be given and one can't.

And while it might be argued, 'don't rock the boat on topics around avoiding escalating to nuclear war, just go along', it's a pretty reasonable issue. Both the reporter and Psaki might be criticized for not being clear about it. I think there is a case that Psaki was not really justified with a snarky 'you need a remind who invaded who' answer. ANd normally I'd love to see her give Fox the snarky answers they deserve.

This topic I think deserves a better answer. Now let me speculate possible reason if not justification for Psaki giving a wrong answer.

And it's because the administration is trying to avoid nuclear war, by playing with unclear made-up rules based on nothing where one guy can decide to launch nukes for any reason, and they're trying to find a middle road between helping Ukraine a lot, while not causing escalation that might lead to, say, a tactical nuclear weapon being used.

And for that purpose they're trying to pretend there is this neat division about 'defensive weapons' and 'offensive weapons' so they can say, 'see we are clearly following the (made-up) rules of what we can do that doesn't escalate', and they don't want to put salt on the wound by saying how unclear and arbitrary it is as they decide MiGs won't be given, and so they gloss over it with a snarky answer. Let me remind you who invaded whom. Next?

And in that situation, Psaki did an outstanding job by dodging the question, and Fox was raising a dangerous topic. But it wasn't a ridiculous one.
 
Having said all of that, I think the topic isn't just muddy. there is some use to the words offensive and defensive weapons. As common sense, just think, you're a country being invaded, what weapons will help? Probably ones that destroy an attacker - anti-tank missiles, anti-air missiles. How about, say, tanks? Well, it's arguable that while tanks can be used to fight invading tanks, maybe they're not much better or as good, as rockets; but they ARE good for attacking.

If you want to invade a country, what would you like? Maybe anti-tank rockets have some use, but tanks seem more useful. By the same point, perhaps MiG aircraft are 'more' useful for an invader than a defender. But perhaps the real point is simply the level of escalation the Pentagon thinks a given weapon system will likely cause. Which isn't necessarily based on objective facts.

As if all this weren't muddy enough, today I saw a former Defense Secretary, Leon Panetta, muddy the word "escalation". In an interview talking about escalation as a topic about things that might lead to nuclear war, like the debate of MiGs, he said that Russians using hypersonic missiles for the first time is a clear escalation.

But he meant, I think a different type of escalation. Not one that should have any escalation to nuclear weapons; he meant it's an escalation in conventional warfare. He said it's unacceptable for someone to have missiles fact enough to evade our anti-missile systems, so they're an escalation. Which is a poor choice of words in a discussion about escalation to nuclear weapons.

In judging Psaki, perhaps there's a case not judging her simply on clearly answering a question, but rather on her helping to keep the diplomacy around the dangerous, arbitrary, subjective risks in nuclear brinksmanship under control with the administration saying, 'it makes clear sense why we're not provoking Russia here'. Should Psaki give a class on the issue, maybe info like my post above? Not necessarily.

Should she just say, 'look, this is unclear, it's just juggling dangers in destroying the world as both sides try to get away with what they can'? Probably not even if it's accurate. It would make for a hell of a headline - administration admits chaos around preventing nuclear war - and could be used by Russia for all kinds of misinformation and justification. Not really what she is trying to do. Even if Fox is happy to if it makes Biden look bad.

But I won't accuse Fox if being reckless there.

Clueless seems all that's needed. While Psaki might well have seemed to not just be a partisan hack being snarky for the sake of it, but being snarky for a good reason.
 
What about MiG's? Well if nothing has changed, there was no problem with Poland donating their MiG's and NATO couldn't stop them anyway. The problem was Poland wanted to fly them through Rammstein giving the appearance of them being a NATO not Polish donation.
 
You would be wrong too. In any case this isn't a contest between the last administration and the current one. This administration refuses to answer very basic questions.
Better to refuse to answer than to gaslight with lots of falsehoods. One thing you could always depend on with the last admin was they would have an answer for everything. As to the validity of those answers is another discussion.
 
And for that purpose they're trying to pretend there is this neat division about 'defensive weapons' and 'offensive weapons' so they can say, 'see we are clearly following the (made-up) rules of what we can do that doesn't escalate', and they don't want to put salt on the wound by saying how unclear and arbitrary it is as they decide MiGs won't be given, and so they gloss over it with a snarky answer. Let me remind you who invaded whom. Next?

And in that situation, Psaki did an outstanding job by dodging the question, and Fox was raising a dangerous topic.

"That's how all of this materiel would be categorized" -- end of answer.

Does that include MiG's? Maybe, maybe not. But it clearly includes drones, which was the question. I'm not seeing how she dodged.

If the Fox journalist wanted confirmation of MiG's being offensive, she should have asked that. Perhaps it would help if we had some footage of Psaki saying MiG's were offensive weapons ...
 
Flew right past you, didn't it?
Not at all. What’s flown past those of you thinking this video is a dunk on Fox is the glaring reality that Psaki can’t defend her position so she resorted to being a smart ass.
 
Why are you doing these mental gymnastics just to agree with Psaki? So of the weapons supplied only a Mig could be used offensively?

Ah. This is the sense in which the Fox reporter "got" Psaki. Did Psaki contradict herself ("all of this materiel" meaning all that was mentioned) or did she draw an arbitrary line between drones and MiG's ("all of this materiel" being all the US is supplying)? It's not a dodge to ignore a false premise in a question, and it's not a dodge to draw an arbitrary line (though the President probably wouldn't thank her for that: the US may still choose to send warplanes.)

It really comes down to what Psaki previously said about MiG's being offensive. Did she mention NATO? I never tire of making the distinction between weapons supplied by member countries, and weapons supplied by NATO. It's a very real difference to Russia, so it should matter to us too.

Fox News don't consider it newsworthy. Just to get this nothing-nugget in proportion.
 
E
Ah. This is the sense in which the Fox reporter "got" Psaki. Did Psaki contradict herself ("all of this materiel" meaning all that was mentioned) or did she draw an arbitrary line between drones and MiG's ("all of this materiel" being all the US is supplying)? It's not a dodge to ignore a false premise in a question, and it's not a dodge to draw an arbitrary line (though the President probably wouldn't thank her for that: the US may still choose to send warplanes.)

It really comes down to what Psaki previously said about MiG's being offensive. Did she mention NATO? I never tire of making the distinction between weapons supplied by member countries, and weapons supplied by NATO. It's a very real difference to Russia, so it should matter to us too.

Fox News don't consider it newsworthy. Just to get this nothing-nugget in proportion.
Read Post 66. That’s all.
 
A mig can be used to attack on the offence, or defend for the defence.
Okay, then why can't a drone, also? I'm honestly just curious, I don't know anything about drones. I thought they flew and carried explosives. Isn't that the idea behind the MIG's, too?
 
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