Japan NOT attacking USA

[calamity]

What would have/ could have happened had Japan not attacked the USA? I have my thoughts but am interested in hearing other's.

Europe and half of Northern Asia today speaks German. Britain serves as an outpost, chock full of German missile silos and radar installations. Our stuff is in Greenland and NE Canada is heavily armored.

 

[CRUE CAB]

8 Battleships, 8 Cruisers, 30 Destroyers. 2 Aircraft Carriers within 500 miles

2 Army Divisions, 75 fighters, 45 bombers

and RADAR.

There are arguments about how it was used, etc, but I never saw a reference to Pearl Harbor being undefended.

Read the accounts of the day. They were not prepared, or on a heightened state of awareness of an attack.
Ships were moored, fighters on the ground with nothing more than ground crews within reach. Only a handful of fighters ever made it to the air, no bombers that I have ever read made it off the ground and radar didn't pick anything up until it was too late.
The Arizona is still not on the bottom because they had anything near a fighting chance.

 

[Sherman123]

Really mister University man? When was that attack from Germany on US soil again? I cant seem to remember.

Well since they declared war...

 

[CRUE CAB]

Well since they declared war...

Nice deflection, when did they attack?

 

[Sherman123]

Nice deflection, when did they attack?

I don't understand what you are getting at or what you want me to say. The original comment that I saw was someone remarking that 'Agreed. Hence my other thread... and Hitler handed it to him too.' which he did... by declaring war on the United States. As the other poster pointed out.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I don't understand what you are getting at or what you want me to say. The original comment that I saw was someone remarking that 'Agreed. Hence my other thread... and Hitler handed it to him too.' which he did... by declaring war on the United States. As the other poster pointed out.

There was a point about what Germany did or didn't do to get us in the war. Declaring war on us meant nothing. They must have had the misguided opinion that Japan was going to win on our homeland and not get their little island almost burned off the face of the earth.

 

[Sherman123]

There was a point about what Germany did or didn't do to get us in the war. Declaring war on us meant nothing. They must have had the misguided opinion that Japan was going to win on our homeland and not get their little island almost burned off the face of the earth.

They declared war on the United States most probably because Hitler believed a US declaration of war was imminent and desired to buttress his Japanese allies willingness to press the campaign which would alleviate pressure on Germany.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

Read the accounts of the day. They were not prepared, or on a heightened state of awareness of an attack.
Ships were moored, fighters on the ground with nothing more than ground crews within reach. Only a handful of fighters ever made it to the air, no bombers that I have ever read made it off the ground and radar didn't pick anything up until it was too late.
The Arizona is still not on the bottom because they had anything near a fighting chance.

Agreed, but they weren't undefended--at least not due to anything FDR failed to do.

Radar picked up everything but due to human failings, the readings were ignored.

 

[apdst]

Read the accounts of the day. They were not prepared, or on a heightened state of awareness of an attack.
Ships were moored, fighters on the ground with nothing more than ground crews within reach. Only a handful of fighters ever made it to the air, no bombers that I have ever read made it off the ground and radar didn't pick anything up until it was too late.
The Arizona is still not on the bottom because they had anything near a fighting chance.

Pearl Harbor was defended, but not on alert. As far as nyone knew, the Japanese navy was still 2,000 miles away. IMO, we acted appropriately, based on the current information.

 

[apdst]

Agreed, but they weren't undefended--at least not due to anything FDR failed to do.

Radar picked up everything but due to human failings, the readings were ignored.

Even if the radar station had correctly identified the Japanese aircraft, the radar operators had no way to inform anyone.

 

[Hamster Buddha]

There was a point about what Germany did or didn't do to get us in the war. Declaring war on us meant nothing. They must have had the misguided opinion that Japan was going to win on our homeland and not get their little island almost burned off the face of the earth.

They declared war on the United States most probably because Hitler believed a US declaration of war was imminent and desired to buttress his Japanese allies willingness to press the campaign which would alleviate pressure on Germany.

First off, Japan had no choice but to attack the US after we initiated a blockade to cut off their oil supplies. War with the US was never something the Japanese wanted, with some even going so far as pronouncing that they could only have six months before the US was on the offensive. The reason Germany declared war on the US was in the misguided hope that Japan would declare war on Russia, thus opening a second front. That of course, never happened.

 

[CRUE CAB]

First off, Japan had no choice but to attack the US after we initiated a blockade to cut off their oil supplies. War with the US was never something the Japanese wanted, with some even going so far as pronouncing that they could only have six months before the US was on the offensive. The reason Germany declared war on the US was in the misguided hope that Japan would declare war on Russia, thus opening a second front. That of course, never happened.

I disagree with the no choice thing.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Pearl Harbor was defended, but not on alert. As far as nyone knew, the Japanese navy was still 2,000 miles away. IMO, we acted appropriately, based on the current information.

I don't see how you call that appropriate.

 

[Hamster Buddha]

I disagree with the no choice thing.

How so? Japan as an island could only exist as long as it could import the raw materials it needed. It would be like cutting off the UK from oil imports, eventually for the health of their economy (and country as a whole), they would have to strike back.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Agreed, but they weren't undefended--at least not due to anything FDR failed to do.

Radar picked up everything but due to human failings, the readings were ignored.

You can believe that. But FDR also knew that it was not out of the realm of possibility that the embargo would cause a conflict.

 

[apdst]

I don't see how you call that appropriate.

Given that nothing pointed to an imminent attack, US forces did what the situation called for.

 

[Bodi]

Read the accounts of the day. They were not prepared, or on a heightened state of awareness of an attack.
Ships were moored, fighters on the ground with nothing more than ground crews within reach. Only a handful of fighters ever made it to the air, no bombers that I have ever read made it off the ground and radar didn't pick anything up until it was too late.
The Arizona is still not on the bottom because they had anything near a fighting chance.

General Short had been told the two essential facts: 1) a war with Japan is threatening, 2) hostile action by Japan is possible at any moment. Given these two facts, both of which were stated without equivocation in the message of Nov. 27, the outpost commander should be on the alert to make his fight. . . . To cluster his airplanes in such groups and positions that in an emergency they could not take the air for several hours, and to keep his antiaircraft ammunition so stored that it could not be promptly and immediately available, and to use his best reconnaissance system, the radar, only for a very small fraction of the day and night, in my opinion betrayed a misconception of his real duty which was almost beyond belief. . . .

National Affairs: PEARL HARBOR: HENRY STIMSON'S VIEW - TIME

 

[CRUE CAB]

Given that nothing pointed to an imminent attack, US forces did what the situation called for.

Granted no one knew exactly what was going to happen and when. Though many say otherwise. There are a lot of theories, some with a ring of truth to them, that are still being floated around to this day.
You would have to read a lot of history books and follow all the conspiracies out there to get a good handle on that answer, but I fully believe that Roosevelt knew something was afoot in the Pacific.
Iam not even saying he was wrong or should be vilified for what knowledge he had or didn't have, but a lot of things in hindsight don't add up.

 

[Sherman123]

First off, Japan had no choice but to attack the US after we initiated a blockade to cut off their oil supplies. War with the US was never something the Japanese wanted, with some even going so far as pronouncing that they could only have six months before the US was on the offensive. The reason Germany declared war on the US was in the misguided hope that Japan would declare war on Russia, thus opening a second front. That of course, never happened.

We didn't initiate a blockade, we issued an embargo forbidding American companies and state reserves from selling strategic resources to Japan. The possibility of war with the United States was on the minds of Japanese military planners as early as the 1920's and the inevitability of a future conflict had hardened by the 1930's. Yes Hitler also did hope that at some point the Japanese might make war on the Soviet Union but it does not seem to have been something they expected to occur.

 

[CRUE CAB]

How so? Japan as an island could only exist as long as it could import the raw materials it needed. It would be like cutting off the UK from oil imports, eventually for the health of their economy (and country as a whole), they would have to strike back.

They could have negotiated their way out of the situation. They could have withdrew from China for a start.

 

[Bodi]

First off, Japan had no choice but to attack the US after we initiated a blockade to cut off their oil supplies. War with the US was never something the Japanese wanted, with some even going so far as pronouncing that they could only have six months before the US was on the offensive. The reason Germany declared war on the US was in the misguided hope that Japan would declare war on Russia, thus opening a second front. That of course, never happened.

Of course they had a choice. They could have stayed clear of British and American interests in the Pacific quite easily, attained supplies and oil over much of South East Asia.

 

[Sherman123]

How so? Japan as an island could only exist as long as it could import the raw materials it needed. It would be like cutting off the UK from oil imports, eventually for the health of their economy (and country as a whole), they would have to strike back.

They could have chosen to not be a fascist & racist Imperial regime with a rapacious desire for territory and resources.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

Even if the radar station had correctly identified the Japanese aircraft, the radar operators had no way to inform anyone.

Except those radios for which they reported and were told to shut down for the day.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

You can believe that. But FDR also knew that it was not out of the realm of possibility that the embargo would cause a conflict.

Yes, he expected conflict in Southeast Asia.

It's not that I believe that they weren't undefended. I listed the major assets that were in Hawaii. Since you have some definition of undefended in your head, what additional assets would you have placed in Hawaii to that you would not have considered them undefended?

A few more army divisions?
A few thousand planes?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Yes, he expected conflict in Southeast Asia.

It's not that I believe that they weren't undefended. I listed the major assets that were in Hawaii. Since you have some definition of undefended in your head, what additional assets would you have placed in Hawaii to that you would not have considered them undefended?

A few more army divisions?
A few thousand planes?

Carriers closer to base, fighter pilots on alert, air patrols and reconnaissance, battle ships spread out or anchored and not moored.