Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

Chase · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
Again, I've seen no one who's posted evidence that the time he spent in jail was the sole result of the justice system and not partially related to him and to his representatives. Did he seek bail? Was he denied bail and if so why - prior incidents? Did he seek a speedy trial or did he and his representatives delay trial? How many times did he appear in court related to the charges? Were the charges held over on his counsel's request? In the 2 and a half years since release, did he or his family seek compensation? Help for him? Care for him?

Why was he in solitary confinement? Was it for his own safety or because of his actions in jail? In the video, in the gang beating, he is the one who threw the first punch. In the video, he said something to the first guard before he was taken down - what did he say?

Do you have answers for any of this? Or is it just convenient for the justice system to be blamed for a family failing their child and a child taking his own life? One thing we can agree on, I presume, is that his family will be front and center now as they try to collect lottery winnings off the death of their son.

Kalief Browder: The Life and Death of the Man Who Spent 3 Years Without Trial on Rikers Island - ABC News

This may help you fill in some of the gaps.
His parents (who had fostered at least 25other kids Kalief being the youngest) didn't have the &3,550 bail that was set. Yet another testimony to the embalmed justice system. You don't keep,a child (16 yrs old) for stealing a backpack. Which it turns out he didn't even do. Hell, even if he did it's a backpack not the Hope diamond.

As far as the guard throwing him to the ground.....what could he have said that deserved that beating? That's why that guard is supposed to be a PAID PROFESSIONAL? He is the one that is being paid (and good benefits) to take the high road. If he can't handle a kids talking trash to him.....he's in the wrong profession.

The other incident with the other inmates beating him up.....the other kid spit in his face. I would EXPECT someone to fight back after being spat on. I would have thrown the first punch too.....most would.

There is no way to justify this situation.

Your less than humans comment explains a lot though.

CanadaJohn · Jun 10, 2015

Chase said:
Kalief Browder: The Life and Death of the Man Who Spent 3 Years Without Trial on Rikers Island - ABC News

This may help you fill in some of the gaps.
His parents (who had fostered at least 25other kids Kalief being the youngest) didn't have the &3,550 bail that was set. Yet another testimony to the embalmed justice system. You don't keep,a child (16 yrs old) for stealing a backpack. Which it turns out he didn't even do. Hell, even if he did it's a backpack not the Hope diamond.

As far as the guard throwing him to the ground.....what could he have said that deserved that beating? That's why that guard is supposed to be a PAID PROFESSIONAL? He is the one that is being paid (and good benefits) to take the high road. If he can't handle a kids talking trash to him.....he's in the wrong profession.

The other incident with the other inmates beating him up.....the other kid spit in his face. I would EXPECT someone to fight back after being spat on. I would have thrown the first punch too.....most would.

There is no way to justify this situation.

Your less than humans comment explains a lot though.

1. So he was given bail but failed to post it - not the justice system's fault. You're telling me that no one in his family could post the percentage (10% or whatever it is) to a bail bondsman on his behalf to get him out over 3 year's time. I call bull**** on that one.

2. Perhaps because he was a foster child the "family" wasn't interested in helping him. I wonder if the "family" was still collecting child support payments for this young man while he was in jail. A "family" that was giving a home to 25 foster children over the years is either one that has the financial resources to pay the $3,500 bail or they're a "family" that was solely milking the system for their own financial benefit.

3. The guard threw him to the ground - I didn't see any beating by the guard. He restrained him on the ground until other guards came to cuff him. What beating by guards are you talking about?

4. As for throwing the first punch - that could be aggravated assault, but it's assault nonetheless. Pretty stupid to be in a room with dozens of other inmates and throwing the punch that starts a melee. Maybe he should have watched To Kill a Mockingbird to see what a real man does when spat on.

5. My less than humans comment was related to the gang members kicking, stomping on, and beating this guy after he threw the first punch. You, and others, can imply or flat out call me a racist for stating it - I'm fine with that. I know who I am and I'm not afraid to speak the truth simply because some people on the internet want to try to shut me down by ignorantly calling me vile names.

HowardBThiname · Jun 10, 2015

sawdust said:
To the best of my knowledge defendants are due a speedy trial. In Florida that's actually what they call it. There are time limits for arraignment, a bail hearing and trial. Three years is outside the limits of speedy trial. If I have an issue with this it's that someone didn't follow the rules for civil trial.

"Civil trials" have nothing to do with this. These are criminal trials. Civil cases are different.

And yes, the judicial system is to strive for speedy trials, it's just that in some places, they're backlogged and NYC is one of those. What are the time limits in New York that you speak of?

The deal is - they know they have a detention problem there and they're working on it:

1,500 Rikers Island Inmates Have Been Behind Bars More Than A Year Without Being Convicted

And, believe it or not - there are some who WANT to stay there, to avoid going to trial.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...er-legal-system-avoid-court-article-1.2219919

My point is that we don't know if this kid killed himself as a result of being detained. We know it was too bad, and we all wish the story ended differently, but he'd gone on Oprah, anonymous donors paid for college but he dropped out - and now - his family wants "change," which typically means they want money. In the three years the kid was in Riker's, his family did not raise the 15% of his bail so he could get out. His bail was $10,000, they needed to raise just $1,000.

Maybe that contributed to his depression - the fact that his family didn't bother to raise the money and let him languish there.

sawdust · Jun 10, 2015

HowardBThiname said:
"Civil trials" have nothing to do with this. These are criminal trials. Civil cases are different.

And yes, the judicial system is to strive for speedy trials, it's just that in some places, they're backlogged and NYC is one of those. What are the time limits in New York that you speak of?

The deal is - they know they have a detention problem there and they're working on it:

1,500 Rikers Island Inmates Have Been Behind Bars More Than A Year Without Being Convicted

And, believe it or not - there are some who WANT to stay there, to avoid going to trial.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...er-legal-system-avoid-court-article-1.2219919

My point is that we don't know if this kid killed himself as a result of being detained. We know it was too bad, and we all wish the story ended differently, but he'd gone on Oprah, anonymous donors paid for college but he dropped out - and now - his family wants "change," which typically means they want money. In the three years the kid was in Riker's, his family did not raise the 15% of his bail so he could get out. His bail was $10,000, they needed to raise just $1,000.

Maybe that contributed to his depression - the fact that his family didn't bother to raise the money and let him languish there.

My bad, criminal. Nitpicker.

Chase · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
1. So he was given bail but failed to post it - not the justice system's fault. You're telling me that no one in his family could post the percentage (10% or whatever it is) to a bail bondsman on his behalf to get him out over 3 year's time. I call bull**** on that one.

2. Perhaps because he was a foster child the "family" wasn't interested in helping him. I wonder if the "family" was still collecting child support payments for this young man while he was in jail. A "family" that was giving a home to 25 foster children over the years is either one that has the financial resources to pay the $3,500 bail or they're a "family" that was solely milking the system for their own financial benefit.

3. The guard threw him to the ground - I didn't see any beating by the guard. He restrained him on the ground until other guards came to cuff him. What beating by guards are you talking about?

4. As for throwing the first punch - that could be aggravated assault, but it's assault nonetheless. Pretty stupid to be in a room with dozens of other inmates and throwing the punch that starts a melee. Maybe he should have watched To Kill a Mockingbird to see what a real man does when spat on.

5. My less than humans comment was related to the gang members kicking, stomping on, and beating this guy after he threw the first punch. You, and others, can imply or flat out call me a racist for stating it - I'm fine with that. I know who I am and I'm not afraid to speak the truth simply because some people on the internet want to try to shut me down by ignorantly calling me vile names.

I just turned 50 yrs old in February. In those 50 yrs, the one one thing that I have learned is.....no matter the circumstances, don't try to tell someone else what they can and can't afford. You have no idea what the family dynamic is in that household. Who are you to say what they (or anyone else for that matter) can and/or can. Not afford. You may live in a $300K house. But I would never tell you that you can't afford a $500 item. It would appear that you could afford it, but in reality you may not be able to afford it.

The kids hands were cuffed behind his back. If nothing else the guard had mechanical advantage over the kid. Throwing him down to the ground was uncalled for. The guard is supposed to be the professional.....not just another thug.
And as far as the spitting part....we will have to agree to disagree. If some one spit on my kid and he/she punched the person that did it......I wouldn't be mad at them.

CanadaJohn · Jun 10, 2015

Chase said:
I just turned 50 yrs old in February. In those 50 yrs, the one one thing that I have learned is.....no matter the circumstances, don't try to tell someone else what they can and can't afford. You have no idea what the family dynamic is in that household. Who are you to say what they (or anyone else for that matter) can and/or can. Not afford. You may live in a $300K house. But I would never tell you that you can't afford a $500 item. It would appear that you could afford it, but in reality you may not be able to afford it.

The kids hands were cuffed behind his back. If nothing else the guard had mechanical advantage over the kid. Throwing him down to the ground was uncalled for. The guard is supposed to be the professional.....not just another thug.
And as far as the spitting part....we will have to agree to disagree. If some one spit on my kid and he/she punched the person that did it......I wouldn't be mad at them.

1. 50 years of living has taught you not to judge what another person may or may not be able to afford but those same 50 years haven't apparently stopped you from judging a person you don't know and never will know to be a racist? Got it.

2. 50 years of living has taught you not to judge what another person may or may not be able to afford but those same 50 years haven't apparently stopped you from judging a jail guard a "thug" with little or no evidence of the situation or to back up your characterization of the man? Got it.

3. 50 years of living has taught you not to judge what another person may or may not be able to afford but those same 50 years haven't apparently taught you that attempting to exact an eye for an eye isn't always the prudent or civil thing to do.

Perhaps in another 50 years you might develop some common sense.

Chase · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
It's impossible to know, from the video, what part the young man played in his own troubles in the jail. In each of the first two incidents I saw in the video, he said something to the guard and he also said something to one of the other inmates and then started the incident by punching another of the inmates in the face. Unless we know what he said, we can't know why he was attacked. And in the gang attack, he started the fight so he got what he deserved.

Secondly, I'd note that in the first incident, with the guards, all the guards who roughed him up were black. In the second incident, the two guards who protected him and got him to safety were white.

Thirdly, he was out of the jail for 2 and a half years before he killed himself - what happened both to him and for him in those intervening years between jail and death? Anyone know?

Finally, I'd say this video does nothing to support the "black lives matter" nonsense since I didn't see a single black person in the video who gave a **** about black life they were trying to end.

This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets.

CanadaJohn said:
1. 50 years of living has taught you not to judge what another person may or may not be able to afford but those same 50 years haven't apparently stopped you from judging a person you don't know and never will know to be a racist? Got it.

2. 50 years of living has taught you not to judge what another person may or may not be able to afford but those same 50 years haven't apparently stopped you from judging a jail guard a "thug" with little or no evide
nce of the situation or to back up your characterization of the man? Got it.

3. 50 years of living has taught you not to judge what another person may or may not be able to afford but those same 50 years haven't apparently taught you that attempting to exact an eye for an eye isn't always the prudent or civil thing to do.

Perhaps in another 50 years you might develop some common sense.

And that statement coming from the same guy the made this statement......"This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets."

You lost your credibility with your first post in this thread. Sorry. Anything you have said after that statement is worthless.

CanadaJohn · Jun 10, 2015

Chase said:
And that statement coming from the same guy the made this statement......"This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets."

You lost your credibility with your first post in this thread. Sorry. Anything you have said after that statement is worthless.

Good for you - feel superior now? Glad I could help.

And I notice you gave up trying to defend your position, since it's indefensible. That's fine too.

Have a great day.

Chase · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
Good for you - feel superior now? Glad I could help.

And I notice you gave up trying to defend your position, since it's indefensible. That's fine too.

Have a great day.

No I haven't given up my position. I still feel that this kid was completely let down by the system. It totally work against him in every way.
Sorry if I made you feel inferior....that wasn't my intention. You enjoy your day also.

clownboy · Jun 10, 2015

MathewSmith said:
Kalief Browder, a young man from New York City who had gained national renown in recent years as a symbol of America's broken criminal justice system, took his own life this weekend, according to a report from The New Yorker. He was 22.

The Death Of Kalief Browder Is An 'American Tragedy Almost Beyond Words'

They broke his mind keeping him in solitary. He was too young to survive such torture. RIP. They won't hurt you anymore. What can I say...I'm not afraid of ISIS, I'm not afraid of Russia, I'm not afraid of Boko Haram, I'm not afraid of parachute jump. I'm afraid of our American Justice System. There are many people responsible for this young death. Unfortunately, l doubt that any of them will ever pay a price.

Then it's a good idea that you stay well away from America. I know we won't miss you one bit.

The video is absurd. He was out for almost three years before he killed himself.

VanceMack · Jun 10, 2015

Deuce said:
Being locked up for 3 years without trial, regardless of reason, isn't just abnormal, it's a violation of basic civil rights. Bail is irrelevant. That length of time fits no conceivable definition of a "speedy" trial.

But that doesnt answer the question. Do you know why he was jailed without trial and why it took so long?

VanceMack · Jun 10, 2015

sawdust said:
Don't I get what? WTF are you talking about, or are you just talking to hear yourself?

Im guessing you might have been missing his point, which was essentially agreeing with you by being sarcastic. Ironically...CanadaJohn then agreed with YOU which makes this whole thing kind of a funny/tragic three ring circus.

reinoe · Jun 10, 2015

Chase said:
And that statement coming from the same guy the made this statement......"This video says more about blacks in America than it does about the American Justice System. Americans should be glad these less than humans are off the streets."

You lost your credibility with your first post in this thread. Sorry. Anything you have said after that statement is worthless.

CanadaJohn is desperately backpedaling on that disgusting comment.

Chase · Jun 10, 2015

VanceMack said:
But that doesnt answer the question. Do you know why he was jailed without trial and why it took so long?

It took so long because 1.His family didn't have the money to post bail for him. 2. They kept getting continuances for his trial. 3. He refused to enter a plea of guilty for something he didn't do.

iliveonramen · Jun 10, 2015

spud_meister said:
Why aren't all of DP's constitutional scholars up in arms over this?

The conservative constitution only includes the first 2 amendments.

americanwoman · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
1. So he was given bail but failed to post it - not the justice system's fault. You're telling me that no one in his family could post the percentage (10% or whatever it is) to a bail bondsman on his behalf to get him out over 3 year's time. I call bull**** on that one.

2. Perhaps because he was a foster child the "family" wasn't interested in helping him. I wonder if the "family" was still collecting child support payments for this young man while he was in jail. A "family" that was giving a home to 25 foster children over the years is either one that has the financial resources to pay the $3,500 bail or they're a "family" that was solely milking the system for their own financial benefit.

3. The guard threw him to the ground - I didn't see any beating by the guard. He restrained him on the ground until other guards came to cuff him. What beating by guards are you talking about?

4. As for throwing the first punch - that could be aggravated assault, but it's assault nonetheless. Pretty stupid to be in a room with dozens of other inmates and throwing the punch that starts a melee. Maybe he should have watched To Kill a Mockingbird to see what a real man does when spat on.

5. My less than humans comment was related to the gang members kicking, stomping on, and beating this guy after he threw the first punch. You, and others, can imply or flat out call me a racist for stating it - I'm fine with that. I know who I am and I'm not afraid to speak the truth simply because some people on the internet want to try to shut me down by ignorantly calling me vile names.

FYI on your #1 some states, like Nebraska, don't have bail bondsmen and you have to post a percentage of the bail yourself, which is then returned if you are convicted or found not guilty. For some it's just not that easy to come up with the money and if you don't have anyone to borrow it from your screwed. I don't know about how NY works though.

clownboy · Jun 10, 2015

americanwoman said:
FYI on your #1 some states, like Nebraska, don't have bail bondsmen and you have to post a percentage of the bail yourself, which is then returned if you are convicted or found not guilty. For some it's just not that easy to come up with the money and if you don't have anyone to borrow it from your screwed. I don't know about how NY works though.

Umm, that's what you do with a bail bondsman, you post a percentage of the bail yourself. Not everyone has even the tenth of the bail typically asked for. Those folks stay in jail. That's how bail works.

americanwoman · Jun 10, 2015

clownboy said:
Umm, that's what you do with a bail bondsman, you post a percentage of the bail yourself. Not everyone has even the tenth of the bail typically asked for. Those folks stay in jail. That's how bail works.

Yes but bondsmen typically don't return the money to you so that's taken as a total loss while posting bail yourself is just a temporary loss of money. So in a state where bondsmen are not legal it's easier to get help to make bail because the person knows (hopes) they are more likely to get the money back and may be easier to get a loan.

VanceMack · Jun 10, 2015

Chase said:
It took so long because 1.His family didn't have the money to post bail for him. 2. They kept getting continuances for his trial. 3. He refused to enter a plea of guilty for something he didn't do.

AND there was the initial component...he was already on parole (for something that he ALSO said he didnt do...might be a bit of a pattern there). That meant that unlike his friend, he couldnt be released without bail.

We can acknowledge it was a tragic situation. Obviously something should be done about the caseload. I'm not sure how they do that without simply offering more plea bargains. Quadruple the available justices, prosecutors, and legal defense teams? But the facts as presented in 3 different articles were that he was picked out by a witness who was willing to swear out a complaint, he did face a grand jury, and the grand jury did find sufficient cause to proceed with charges.

CanadaJohn · Jun 10, 2015

americanwoman said:
FYI on your #1 some states, like Nebraska, don't have bail bondsmen and you have to post a percentage of the bail yourself, which is then returned if you are convicted or found not guilty. For some it's just not that easy to come up with the money and if you don't have anyone to borrow it from your screwed. I don't know about how NY works though.

I'm guessing, a city the size of New York has an abundance of bail bondsmen. If, as noted by Chase, the bail was $3500, that takes a personal note of about $350 plus fees to get the bail posted. Don't try to tell me that a family that cares about a "son" can't come up with $350 in the course of 3 years. I'm not buying it. And if a couple who apparently have fostered 25 children over the years can't come up with $350, they shouldn't be fostering children. It makes no sense on its face.

CanadaJohn · Jun 10, 2015

reinoe said:
CanadaJohn is desperately backpedaling on that disgusting comment.

Speak for yourself - I'm not backpedaling from any comment I've made in this thread.

CanadaJohn · Jun 10, 2015

VanceMack said:
AND there was the initial component...he was already on parole (for something that he ALSO said he didnt do...might be a bit of a pattern there). That meant that unlike his friend, he couldnt be released without bail.

We can acknowledge it was a tragic situation. Obviously something should be done about the caseload. I'm not sure how they do that without simply offering more plea bargains. Quadruple the available justices, prosecutors, and legal defense teams? But the facts as presented in 3 different articles were that he was picked out by a witness who was willing to swear out a complaint, he did face a grand jury, and the grand jury did find sufficient cause to proceed with charges.

Likes not working for me now, so I'll do it this way

JasperL · Jun 10, 2015

clownboy said:
Then it's a good idea that you stay well away from America. I know we won't miss you one bit.

The video is absurd. He was out for almost three years before he killed himself.

Just curious, there are perhaps 10s of thousands of vets suffering PTSD and other mental illnesses long (years!!) after they were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Suicide among returning vets, along with substance abuse, depression, etc. is a serious problem. I guess you'll blame the combat veterans, too, when they kill themselves, tell the family it was their fault for not taking better care of their veteran spouse, or their husband/wife was just a weak loser? Yeah, right...

It's always shocking how misinformed the American public is about mental health issues.

JasperL · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
I'm guessing, a city the size of New York has an abundance of bail bondsmen. If, as noted by Chase, the bail was $3500, that takes a personal note of about $350 plus fees to get the bail posted. Don't try to tell me that a family that cares about a "son" can't come up with $350 in the course of 3 years. I'm not buying it. And if a couple who apparently have fostered 25 children over the years can't come up with $350, they shouldn't be fostering children. It makes no sense on its face.

What makes no sense? He didn't post bond, spent three years in jail, never tried or convicted, spent 2 years in solitary of those 3. It doesn't have to "make sense," it's fact, what happened.

JasperL · Jun 10, 2015

CanadaJohn said:
Tell us why. Do you know, or are you just assuming the worst?

Why no bail? First time offense? Stealing a backpack and staying locked up for 3 years isn't normal, so what's the reason?

Is the justice system responsible for the seeming lack of care his family got him for the 2 and a half years he was out of jail after the charges were dropped? Does every juvenile who gets in trouble commit suicide when they get out?

Does every veteran of Iraq or Afghanistan commit suicide? No. So f'em all if they can't handle civilian life after combat. Right? It's either the soldiers' fault or their families, so there's no issue for anyone else to worry about.....

Jailed For Years Without Trial, Kills Himself

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