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I've noticed something has changed about the abortion debate on DP

Roe is by far not one of the worst examples of judicial overreach in our history. I'm not sure at this point if it's you or me that is confused? You support choice but not RvW? If republicans get their way abortion will be outlawed in america, where's your choice then?
It doesn't matter if I support choice or not. The fact is that the court lacks the authority to impose its opinion on choice on all 50 states.

I'm not an ends justify-the-means kind of guy. Many here are.
 
Viability is in no way a required "boundary." It is an opinion on when life ought to begin, no more. The Roe court could have just as easily settled on birth, a beating heart, or conception.
In the course of determining a women's autonomy a boundry was subsequently necessary. Viability was that just boundry/compromise. To wit: The Roe court could have just as easily settled on birth.

What matters is there is nothing in the Constitution that grants the authority to SCOTUS to impose their majority opinion on when life begins on the entire country.
Are you always this thick or is abortion a special issue with you?
Nothing in the constitution forbade SCOTUS from presiding upon an appositeness of the 14th Amendment.
You simply disagree with the general empowerment of women to abort, that's why you conveniently side-step it's motivation and overthink it's judicial terminus.

It's no more than straw man and it's getting old, get over it
 
What matters is there is nothing in the Constitution that grants the authority to SCOTUS to impose their majority opinion on when life begins on the entire country.
Moreover, they didn't. Brush up on the concept and liberty of choice.
You're quite free to believe life begins at conception. Others are free to disagree.
The American way yes?
 
. What matters is there is nothing in the Constitution that grants the authority to SCOTUS to impose their majority opinion on when life begins on the entire country.
Yet, you await the court's exact judgement in your favor.
Does the rich irony and hypocrisy simply evade you?
 
In what sense did inalienable rights matter to a slave in Georgia in 1791?
These silly deflections are silly silliness and boring.
 
How many abortion threads would you say you've started? Ten, twenty but your not advocating one way or the other? I don't read your posts as such, I read them as you are against abortion and think RvW should be overturned. Am I wrong?

What you should gather from what I've written is that I think Roe is among the worst examples of judicial overreach in the history of The Court. You should also gather that if what's in the Dobbs draft is finalized that I will be thrilled as it will be a victory for democracy over well intentioned authoritarianism. What you should not do is try to infer my policy preference on abortion for two reasons: I have not shared it, and if you were to later learn of it it might actually surprise you.

One can reasonably be in favor of choice and opposed to Roe.
Mort, your non-answers are answers enough.
 
I think you are right most conservatives have bought into the religious right's agenda. The theocratic aspects of it give them a sense of security that they have the moral high ground. From that vantage point one can simply declare all other positions immoral and wrong without ever having to look carefully at the reality of a problem. Never having to examine or acknowledge one's own biases or flawed rationalizations is very rewarding. It is not surprising that the Trump/pro-guns/anti-abortion cult is thriving.
Its a religious cult Weaver. You know it. I know it. Trump cultists no it. They throw around Christian values and Jesus name drop to justify hateful, cowardly ideology that is the anti=thesis of the very reason Christianity was created which was to put into practice the Talmudic principle of teekam olam, or healing the world through every day small actions where we give to others and think of others and expect nothing in return. The pith and substance of it was to put that in practice from the Torah (first five books of the Bible) and not just speak it. Now do not get me going on theology because I am a modernist who has evolved past literal translations of any human written stories but I know you know what I mean. Trump et al have tried to pander to Christian Evangelists using the BIble as a coded weapon to attack and engage in intolerance, hatred and violence.
 
What you should gather from what I've written is that I think Roe is among the worst examples of judicial overreach in the history of The Court. You should also gather that if what's in the Dobbs draft is finalized that I will be thrilled as it will be a victory for democracy over well intentioned authoritarianism. What you should not do is try to infer my policy preference on abortion for two reasons: I have not shared it, and if you were to later learn of it it might actually surprise you.

One can reasonably be in favor of choice and opposed to Roe.
There you go again telling people how they can think. Go on explain how one would be against Roe but still favour a woman controlling her body unconditionally. Go on expert. Finish your pontificating. Stop posing an d posturing like some run way drag queen and finish a thought with an example. Are you capable of doing that?
 
What you should gather from what I've written is that I think Roe is among the worst examples of judicial overreach in the history of The Court. You should also gather that if what's in the Dobbs draft is finalized that I will be thrilled as it will be a victory for democracy over well intentioned authoritarianism. What you should not do is try to infer my policy preference on abortion for two reasons: I have not shared it, and if you were to later learn of it it might actually surprise you.

One can reasonably be in favor of choice and opposed to Roe.
You are against woman having a choice. Your comments show how full of it you are. Your first set of words contradicts the second. You blather. You haven't a clue what Roe actually said in terms of principles to be applied in actual life choice decisions, not a clue,
 
Well, I'm back now, so the Abortion forum is automatically 1,000% more fun. Meat's back on the menu, boys!
Maybe you want to wear underwear and zip it up. This aint no delicatessen and sausages aint kosher. Have a nice day. Please don't tell me its salami.
 
Oh look, a nothing-post.
..another passive aggressive retort to try deflect and compensate from having no idea how to respond to what I said. Lo. hank you-you for again demonstrating the very same behaviour you accuse me of and showing you have zero insight into the inconsistency and contradiction in what you say. Brilliant.

Listen let me try explain it on a level you might understand:

1655397707560.webp
 
Maybe you want to wear underwear and zip it up.
You wear underwear that has zippers on it? Doesn't that chafe?


This aint no delicatessen and sausages aint kosher. Have a nice day. Please don't tell me its salami.
I can be plenty delicate when I'm of a mind to be. Besides, who says I'm trying to feed you? German sausages are meant to be served whole.
 
It doesn't matter if I support choice or not. The fact is that the court lacks the authority to impose its opinion on choice on all 50 states.

I'm not an ends justify-the-means kind of guy. Many here are.
Of course you are. This is precisely why you support laws being imposed on women regulating how the control their body and then in the next breath are anti any law that imposes control of weapons.

Good God man your complete detachment from the crap you offer is past absurd.

1655398555555.webp I am not fat.1655399200860.webp I'm not fat. 1655399275155.webp
 
No, I'm not. I have not stated my prefered policy in this thread or anywhere on DP.

I'm not here advocating for a specific policy. I'm advocating for who gets to decide what the policy should be. The zealots here cannot separate those two concepts. Can you?

It's very obvious what your position is. Your denials are just silly. You're fooling no one that's followed along.
 
Then make up your mind. When I accused you of having that position you claimed it was a joke.

Regardless, you're still wrong. Even under Roe a fetal right to life can be established in the third trimester and has in over 40 states. You can ignore these laws if you like, but they still exist.
Roe does not use the term "fetal right to life". This is something you have made up. Roe says the state has a compelling interest in protecting the health and potential life of the fetus. This is about the 4th time you have been told this. Why do you keep insisting that states can confer "right to life" or "personhood"on a fetus. State laws cannot ignore the US Code.And they have not. No state has established a right to life law. If you think they have please give some links and quote the language used. I've looked and cannot find any state that has done so.
It doesn't matter if I support choice or not. The fact is that the court lacks the authority to impose its opinion on choice on all 50 states.
This was a class action question: had the lower court reached a valid decision about Roe's and other women's right to sue the state of Texas to make them stop prohibiting all women from getting an abortion? The lower court had said that the law banning abortion except for the health of the mother was vague and infringed on Roe's and all other women's 9th and 14th Amendments. The state disagreed with with lower courts decision and appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court was being asked whether the lower court had made the correct decision.

("A pregnant single woman (Roe) brought a class action challenging the constitutionality of the Texas criminal abortion laws, which proscribe procuring or attempting an abortion except on medical advice for the purpose of saving the mother's life. ...... A three-judge District Court, which consolidated the actions, held that Roe ..... had standing to sue and presented justiciable controversies. Ruling that declaratory, though not injunctive, relief was warranted, the court declared the abortion statutes void as vague and over-broadly infringing those plaintiffs' Ninth and Fourteenth Amendment rights. .... Appellants directly appealed to this Court on the injunctive rulings, and appellee cross-appealed from the District Court's grant of declaratory relief to Roe....")

The SC was asked for declaratory relief: Declaratory relief refers to a court's judgment stating the rights of parties without ordering any specific action or listing awards for damages. When a party is requesting a declaratory judgment, the party is seeking an official declaration regarding the status of the controversy in issue. The SC was not asked for injunctive relief which would have been a declarations by the SC that the Texas law was wrong and had to be changed or eliminated.

It looks like to me what the SC decision did was to say the lower court's decision that all women's 9th and 14th Amendment rights had been infringed upon or denied and was unconstitutional. That doesn't sound like making law that sounds like what the SC was asked to do by the Constitution.
The Constitution says:"Section 2: The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.


Overturning Roe really has almost nothing to do with abortion. It is the beginning salvo in an effort to deny the SC right to make decisions against states and push the country into a federal system rather than a united state. Overturning Roe reinforces the right of each state to make all it's own laws without central government interference. The central government is maintained for military defense only and has no jurisdiction over any state laws. It is not what the founding father envisioned for the United States of America when they wrote the Constitution.
 
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In the course of determining a women's autonomy a boundry was subsequently necessary. Viability was that just boundry/compromise. To wit: The Roe court could have just as easily settled on birth.
A compromise they did not have the authority to make.

Are you always this thick or is abortion a special issue with you?
That you're resorting to personal attacks shows the weakness in your argument, not mine.

Nothing in the constitution forbade SCOTUS from presiding upon an appositeness of the 14th Amendment.
You simply disagree with the general empowerment of women to abort, that's why you conveniently side-step it's motivation and overthink it's judicial terminus.
That is a lie. You do not know my position on abortion and have been reminded of that several times. That you claim a supposed position is my motivation is another example of your reasoning running dry. Stick to what I have said, not what you imagine I might say.

It's no more than straw man and it's getting old, get over it
Limitations on federal authority are no strawman. There were as fundamental a concept held by the framers as any other.
 
Yet, you await the court's exact judgement in your favor.
Does the rich irony and hypocrisy simply evade you?
In my favor? Look at my profile and see where I live. Roe's repeal will change nothing here.
 
There you go again telling people how they can think. Go on explain how one would be against Roe but still favour a woman controlling her body unconditionally. Go on expert. Finish your pontificating. Stop posing an d posturing like some run way drag queen and finish a thought with an example. Are you capable of doing that?
And more personal attacks. You folks are starting to show just how weak your arguments really are.

But let me address your point by take it out of the highly charged issue of abortion and demonstrate the same principle with another matter, capital punishment. There have been attempts in the past to get capital punishment found as unconstitutional under the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause of the 8th Amendment. I have a personal belief that capital punishment is wrong, and I oppose it. But those who wrote and ratified the 8th Amendment back in 1791 had no issues with capital punishment. Executions were common then in all jurisdictions. And even elsewhere in the Bill of Rights it describes under what conditions it is permissible for the state to deny someone their life. If SCOTUS suddenly decided to outlaw capital punishment based on the 8th, I would oppose that decision even though I oppose capital punishment. And my opposition would be based on the exact same reason I oppose Roe: the court lacks the authority.

So again, my principal objection to Roe is not based on a moral position about abortion. My reasons are political; they vastly exceeded their authority, and I couldn't be more thrilled the current majority agrees with me.
 
You are against woman having a choice. Your comments show how full of it you are. Your first set of words contradicts the second. You blather. You haven't a clue what Roe actually said in terms of principles to be applied in actual life choice decisions, not a clue,
You are completely ignorant of my views on abortion. Fact, not opinion.
 
Roe does not use the term "fetal right to life". This is something you have made up. Roe says the state has a compelling interest in protecting the health and potential life of the fetus.
You can stop right there (again). Those statements mean the same thing.
 
Christianity was created which was to put into practice the Talmudic principle of teekam olam, or healing the world through every day small actions where we give to others and think of others and expect nothing in return. The pith and substance of it was to put that in practice from the Torah (first five books of the Bible) and not just speak it. Now do not get me going on theology because I am a modernist who has evolved past literal translations of any human written stories but I know you know what I mean.
I do know what you mean. Rabbi Michael Lerner comes to mind. I heard him speak about 20 years ago. He articulated and explained the hostility and divineness of our culture and made a case for a society based on healing, a sense of community, shared work and tolerance that was electrifying in it's common sense.

“Instead of a bottom-line based on money and power, we need a new bottom-line that defines productivity and creativity as where corporations, governments, schools, public institutions, and social practices are judged as efficient, rational and productive not only to the extent they maximize money and power, but to the extent they maximize love and caring, ethical and ecological sensitivity, and our capacities to respond with awe and wonder at the grandeur of creation.”
 
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You can stop right there (again). Those statements mean the same thing.

No they dont. If they do, please explain why the forests and wildlife and livestock that states also take a compelling interest in protecting those lives of also dont recognize rights for them?

SCOTUS chose to be very explicit, so your imagined 'implied' claim fails. You have never once proven it, quoted law where states recognized rights for the unborn.

Once again, here's the explicit text that proves you wrong. If they'd wanted to say what you 'claim,' they'd have been just as explicit. See the red below. It proves you clearly wrong.

"On 22 January 1973, in Roe v. Wade, the United States Supreme Court declared that an unborn child enjoys no constitutional protection before he or she emerges from the womb. Even after viability, the fetus in utero counts only as a "potentiality of human life.""
--and--​
The Supreme Court’s abortion rulings include four principal elements: 1. The unborn child is a non-person and therefore has no constitutional rights; 2. The right of his mother to kill that non-person is a “ liberty Charles E. Rice 3 interest” protected by the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment; 3. The states may impose some marginal restrictions on abortion but are barred from effectively prohibiting abortion at any stage of pregnancy; 4. Efforts undertaken in the vicinity of an abortuary to dissuade women from abortion are subject to more stringent restrictions than are other forms of speech, assembly and association.
 
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