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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

jujuman13

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BBC News - Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

Quote(The Palestinian movement Hamas says the Israeli navy has intercepted a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza strip.

Flotilla organisers say 30 people on board were hurt in clashes with Israeli forces. Israel has made no comment.

The reported interception took place in international waters, more than 150km (90 miles) off the coast of Gaza. )

I can well believe that people were hurt, Hamas claims the interception was in International waters, be interesting to hear where Israel claims the interception took place.
 

RyrineaHaruno

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I still need more information before I make my judgment on this matter. This is something Israel will have to answer for, if this is the full story we are getting.
 
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bub

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At least 10 killed during an assault by an Israeli commando.

They say some passengers have attacked the commando with knifes and axes.

Now, if it has happened in international waters, I guess the Israeli raid could be considered as an act of piracy, and what the passengers did was self-defence.
And if it has happened in Israeli territorial waters, then it is also the fault of the humanitarian flotilla, but still, 10 deads during an assault of an humanitarian flotilla, it's not a very smart move in terms of public relations.
 

Hatuey

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There comes a time in every country's life where they stop being the oppressed and become the oppressor.
 

Redress

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Israel's response so far:

"We did not attack any boat, we merely fulfill the Israeli government's decision to prevent anyone from going into the Gaza strip without coordinating with Israel," a statement from the Israeli military said. "The flotilla is a provocation made to de-legitimize Israel. Had they really wanted to deliver the cargo into Gaza they could have done so via Israel as it is done on a daily basis."
Israeli military boards ship in Gaza flotilla - CNN.com
 

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At least 10 killed during an assault by an Israeli commando.

They say some passengers have attacked the commando with knifes and axes.

Now, if it has happened in international waters, I guess the Israeli raid could be considered as an act of piracy, and what the passengers did was self-defence.
And if it has happened in Israeli territorial waters, then it is also the fault of the humanitarian flotilla, but still, 10 deads during an assault of an humanitarian flotilla, it's not a very smart move in terms of public relations.
It happened in international waters. About 65 km from the coast of Gaza.
 

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That's their justification for killing 16 unarmed civillians in international waters?!?! BS
I just posted it, I am not responsible for it. Right now, until we have more firm details, I am not making any judgments. At this point, it looks bad, but all the details are coming from one side. Gunna wait awhile to draw conclusions.
 

Hatuey

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I expect all those up in arms about North Korean sinking a South Korean submarine to be up in arms about this.
 

mbig

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It's a Shame if anyone lost their lives in this PR Stunt-... as Gaza is Not starving nor short of Anything they're bringing.

October, NY times

Rafah Journal
Goods Flood Gaza’s Tunnels, Turning Border Area Into a Shopping Mecca http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/wo...t/22rafah.html
By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY
October 21, 2009
RAFAH, Gaza — Dusty sacks filled with cans of Coca-Cola were being loaded onto trucks by young boys, headed for Supermarkets in Gaza City.
Thousands of Motorcycles were lined up on display in a nearby stadium, ranging in price from $2,000 to $10,000.

At Nijma market, refrigerators, flat-screen televisions, microwaves, air-conditioners, generators and ovens filled the tents,
all at inflated prices, having been spirited into this town on the border with Egypt through tunnels under the sand. Some Gazans have even purchased Cars smuggled in parts into the isolated Palestinian enclave.
[...........]
there are more tunnels now than ever, and Rafah has turned into a Shopping Mecca where the tunnel owners are kings.
[...........]In the past, armed gangs roamed this frontier town with a lawless feel; journalists and humanitarian workers were about the only visitors to venture here. Now, customers flock in from all over Gaza. What started as a few clandestine tunnels dug beneath houses has turned into a booming industry that nobody bothers to hide.

Before the Gaza war the tunnels numbered in the hundreds. Today about 1,500 of them are said to be crammed into an eight-mile stretch along the border, employing in the neighborhood of 30,000 Palestinians from all over the territory. A local merchant has opened a 24-hour grocery store called “Dubai” to cater to them. Only the milk and the yogurt come from Israel. The Soft drinks, Beans, Chocolate, Cookies and Cooking oil come in consignments from under the ground.

Across the street Abu Raed Alarja, 58, fixes tools that are used to dig the tunnels. Inside his dark store, he also stocks cement, generators and blue plastic barrels strung together with strong ropes, used to drag goods from the Egyptian side....
http://www.economist.com/world/middle-east/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15824034| The Economist
Hamas has done well to survive but it is threatened by Rivalry among Islamists
The Economist, Mar 31st 2010
....The tunnels that snake under Gaza’s border with Egypt have multiplied so fast that supply sometimes exceeds demand. So stiff is commercial competition that tunnel-diggers complain that their work is no longer profitable. As a British parliamentary report recently noted, Israel officially allows Gaza to import only 73 of more than 4,000 items that are available in the strip. The rest is home-made—or acquired illicitly. For instance, cement, which cost 300 Israeli shekels ($80) a sack two years ago, has dropped almost tenfold in price, precipitating a Spate of building for the first time since Israel’s attack a year ago reduced 4,000 houses to ruins. And eyewitnesses say that flashy 4x4 vehicles can actually drive through tunnels built from shipping containers.

Israel’s siege still causes misery. Yet some economists say the strip is growing faster than the West Bank run by Hamas’s rival Palestinian Authority (PA), albeit from a far lower base. The petrol pumped into Gaza by underground pipes and hoses from Egypt costs a third of what it does in Ramallah, the Palestinians’ West Bank capital, where Israel supplies it.
Free health care is more Widely available in Gaza.
Imports travel faster through the tunnels than via Israel’s thickets of bureaucracy...."

As well as lower prices, Gazans benefit from civil-service payrolls. Several outfits pump cash into the strip’s economy: the local Hamas government; the UN, which employs 10,000 Gazans; and Salam Fayyad’s West Bank government, which is the largest employer of all. Payments to Hamas and its connected tunnel-operators boost the economy too. A car-dealer bringing in a new Hyundai saloon through the tunnels stands to make a profit of $13,000.

Above ground things look better, too. In the 14 months since the war ended, Hamas has swept up much of the wreckage. The Islamic University, bombed by Israel’s aircraft, sparkles again. New cafés have opened across Gaza City......"
 
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Tashah

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No official statements from the Israeli government or Navy yet.

Israeli media are reporting that the convoy was instructed by radio to either return to Cyprus or head for the port city of Ashdod where humanitarian supplies would be off-loaded and then transfered to Gaza.

It seems that when neither directive was followed, Israeli helicopter-borne commandos boarded the convoy flagship. Apparently, activists then engaged them with lethal force and the commandos responded with lethal force.

No firm report on fatalities. It is reported that seven wounded (one critical) have been flown to a hospital in Haifa, but is is unknown at this time if these casualties are commandos or activists.

An ugly situation indeed :(
 

Hatuey

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It's a Shame if anyone lost their lives in this PR Stunt-... as Gaza is Not starving nor short of Anything they're bringing.

October, NY times
Rafah Journal
Goods Flood Gaza’s Tunnels, Turning Border Area Into a Shopping Mecca http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/wo...t/22rafah.html
By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY
October 21, 2009

Economist.com The Economist
Hamas has done well to survive but it is threatened by Rivalry among Islamists
The Economist, Mar 31st 2010
60% of Gaza lives under poverty levels. Your links are meaningless and quite dishonest. Black markets with inflated prices are not representative of a populations wealth but of the poverty it is experiencing. What I find best is your selective highlighting.

http://www.immigration-usa.com/wfb2004/west_bank/west_bank_economy.html

GDP:
purchasing power parity - $1.7 billion (2002 est.)

GDP - real growth rate:
-22% (2002 est.)


GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $800 (2002 est.)

GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 9%
industry: 28%
services: 63%
note: includes Gaza Strip (1999 est.)

Population below poverty line:
60% (2003 est.)


Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: NA%
highest 10%: NA%

Inflation rate (consumer prices):
2.2% (includes Gaza Strip) (2001 est.)

Labor force:
NA

Labor force - by occupation:
services 66%, industry 21%, agriculture 13% (1996)

Unemployment rate:
50% (includes Gaza Strip) (2003 est.)


Budget:
revenues: $676.6 million
expenditures: $1.155 billion, including capital expenditures of NA (includes Gaza Strip) (2003 est.)

Industries:
generally small family businesses that produce cement, textiles, soap, olive-wood carvings, and mother-of-pearl souvenirs; the Israelis have established some small-scale, modern industries in the settlements and industrial centers

Industrial production growth rate:
NA%

Electricity - production:
NA kWh; note - most electricity imported from Israel; East Jerusalem Electric Company buys and distributes electricity to Palestinians in East Jerusalem and its concession in the West Bank; the Israel Electric Company directly supplies electricity to most Jewish residents and military facilities; some Palestinian municipalities, such as Nablus and Janin, generate their own electricity from small power plants

Electricity - production by source:
fossil fuel: 100%
hydro: 0%
nuclear: 0%
other: 0% (2001)

Electricity - consumption:
NA kWh

Electricity - imports:
NA kWh

Agriculture - products:
olives, citrus, vegetables; beef, dairy products

Exports:
$603 million f.o.b., includes Gaza Strip

Exports - commodities:
olives, fruit, vegetables, limestone

Exports - partners:
Israel, Jordan, Gaza Strip (2000)

Imports:
$1.9 billion c.i.f., includes Gaza Strip

Imports - commodities:
food, consumer goods, construction materials

Imports - partners:
Israel, Jordan, Gaza Strip (2000)

Debt - external:
$108 million (includes Gaza Strip) (1997 est.)

Economic aid - recipient:
$2 billion (includes Gaza Strip) (2001-02 est.)

Currency:
new Israeli shekel (ILS); Jordanian dinar (JOD)

Currency code:
ILS; JOD
 
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mbig

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60% of Gaza lives under poverty levels. Your links are meaningless and quite dishonest. Black markets with inflated prices are not representative of a populations wealth but of the poverty it is experiencing. What I find best is your selective highlighting.
My links from the Economist and NY Times are "Dishonest"?
Fabricating the Booming market in Gaza -- but in such great DETAIL.. thousand of motorcycles no less.
What shall we call your Undocumented Crap then?
What's Dishonest?
Those are from reporters reporting the actual on-the-ground situation.
Much more With Pictures available.

Gazans have all the goods and services they can afford and more.
The UNRWA, their very own agency which we pay for, keeps them overall much better than less well known similar ones mentioned below.

Many Gazans do live in poverty... of course.. no worse poverty than other countries with a median age of 17 and growing the population 40% every 10 years. (doubling every 20 yrs)

They're simply No place for them to work.
Only the Arab Gulf states can afford the Arab fertility rate, and even the Saudi GDP per person is falling.
Think Condoms!
They are in no worse shape the the residents of Cairo overall
or any other Place with similar demographics (Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc).
But that can hardly be attributed to Israel.
As someone who is fluent on this topic and made most of his posts here on it and in the M-E section, it's amusing/Insulting/Laughable to get a lecture from a total Rookie who just read todays' headlines.

And this is hardly New/News for me.. even tho it is for You.
3/20/2010
My string debunking this ongoing BS.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/68581-gaza-open-air-prison-ghetto-refugee-camp.html
 
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bub

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No official statements from the Israeli government or Navy yet.

Israeli media are reporting that the convoy was instructed by radio to either return to Cyprus or head for the port city of Ashdod where humanitarian supplies would be off-loaded and then transfered to Gaza.

It seems that when neither directive was followed, Israeli helicopter-borne commandos boarded the convoy flagship. Apparently, activists then engaged them with lethal force and the commandos responded with lethal force.

No firm report on fatalities. It is reported that seven wounded (one critical) have been flown to a hospital in Haifa, but is is unknown at this time if these casualties are commandos or activists.

An ugly situation indeed :(
If we assume (as newspapers report) that it has happened in international waters, do you think that the israeli commando had the right to board these ships?

And, second question, let's also assume that the deads are not Israeli (that's also very likely, but newspapers have to confirm that), don't you think that the use of force (10 killed apparently) is totally out of proportion with the danger caused by these ships (humanitarian ships loaded with wheelchairs and food, with several European MEP and apparently some guys who had knives)?
 

Redress

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No official statements from the Israeli government or Navy yet.

Israeli media are reporting that the convoy was instructed by radio to either return to Cyprus or head for the port city of Ashdod where humanitarian supplies would be off-loaded and then transfered to Gaza.

It seems that when neither directive was followed, Israeli helicopter-borne commandos boarded the convoy flagship. Apparently, activists then engaged them with lethal force and the commandos responded with lethal force.

No firm report on fatalities. It is reported that seven wounded (one critical) have been flown to a hospital in Haifa, but is is unknown at this time if these casualties are commandos or activists.

An ugly situation indeed :(
I saw the comment about the convey being instructed to turn back or go to Ashdod. If that is true, it certainly sheds some more light onto the situation. The question will probably end up being why did the Israeli forces open fire. Unless the convey made a hostile move(other than not turning, which really is not hostile), opening fire at that point was premature at best. Still waiting for more details before anything is firm though. Still way too much not known to make an effective judgment on the actions.
 

Hatuey

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My links from the Economist and NY Times are "Dishonest" or me?
You.

What shall we call your Undocumented Crap then?
Which undocumented crap? The one that says over 50% of Palestinians live in poverty? Lol. Hardly undocumented.

What's Dishonest?
You. We went over this above.

Those are from reporters on the ground reporting the actuial on-the-ground situation.
Much more With Pictures available.
Irrelevant, people on the ground reporting that there are black markets with inflated prices while forgetting the majority of the population lives in poverty are simply paying lip service to Israel's defenders. Nothing more, nothing less.
Gazans have all the goods and services they can afford and more.
Only the majority of them can't afford it. As over 50% of them live in poverty and prices as your articles say are inflated. Oh I'm sorry? Am I exposing your dishonesty? Here, I'll highlight the part you forgot:

RAFAH, Gaza — Dusty sacks filled with cans of Coca-Cola were being loaded onto trucks by young boys, headed for Supermarkets in Gaza City.
Thousands of Motorcycles were lined up on display in a nearby stadium, ranging in price from $2,000 to $10,000.

At Nijma market, refrigerators, flat-screen televisions, microwaves, air-conditioners, generators and ovens filled the tents, all at inflated prices, having been spirited into this town on the border with Egypt through tunnels under the sand. Some Gazans have even purchased Cars smuggled in parts into the isolated Palestinian enclave.
The UNRWA, their very own agency which we pay for, keeps them overall much better than less well known similar ones mentioned below.

Many Gazans do live in poverty... of course.. no worse poverty than other countries with a median age of 17 and growing the population 40% every 10 years. (doubling every 20 yrs)

They're simply No place for them to work.
Only the Arab Gulf states can afford the Arab fertility rate, and even the Saudi GDP per person is falling.
Think Condoms!
They are in no worse shape the the residents of Cairo overall
or any other Place with similar demographics (Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc).
But that can hardly be attributed to Israel.
As someone who is fluent on this topic and made most of his posts here on it and in the M-E section, it's amusing/Insdulting/Laughable to get a lecture from a total Rookie who just read todays' headlines.

But this is hardly News for me.. even tho it is for You.
3/20/2010
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/68581-gaza-open-air-prison-ghetto-refugee-camp.html
Laughable. Somalia has over 50 years of oppression at the hands of foreign and local establishments. Pakistan only became a country this century and for most of it's history has been engulfed in various wars. Yemen had a civil war less than 20 years ago. Comparing Gaza to them only serves to cement my point. Not yours. Now stop this. You're making yourself look simple.
 

Redress

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IDF: Soldiers were met by well-planned lynch in Gaza waters

Israel is trying too justify this massacre thought they also forget a 85 year old Holocaust survivor was on the Flotilla.
From your source, some questions start to be answered:

According to IDF reports, at least 10 acitivists were killed during the ensuing clashes as well as six Navy commandos, some of them from gunfire and at least one in serious condition with a head wound. Foreign reports claimed that the number of dead was close to 15. Some of the wounded were evacuated to Israeli hospital by Air Force helicopters.

Upon boarding the ships, the soldiers encountered fierce resistance from the passangers who were armed with knives, bats and metal pipes. The soldiers used non-lethal measures to disperse the crowd. The activists succeeded in stealing the weapon from one of the IDF’s soldiers and reportedly opened fire, leading to an escalation in violence.
Still too early to say anything for sure, and conflicting reports from both sides leaves some things in question.
 

mbig

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Well then, you've committed an infraction. Or, Rather, have been forced to accuse me of Dishonesty because you could NOT refute my links.. NY Tiimes and Economist mag.
Accusing them of Dishonesty, your Original intent, of course only Discredits YOU.
So you switched.. but switched into a persoanl insult.
Out of my frying pan.. into the fire.

Cement has dropped Tenfold in price, Gasoline costs 1/3 of what it does in the West Bank, "Supply often exceeds demand", Tunnelers complain it no longer pays (after 1000 in 8 miles). Motorcycles lined up by the Thousands. 30,000 people now working in the Booming Biz.... etc etc etc.. yet we have this PR "Supply Ship" STUNT.


You Haven't Refuted a Single word in the Articles.
Hatuey has been utterly gutted by Credible Sources ....and reverts to personal insult.

Which undocumented crap? The one that says over 50% of Palestinians live in poverty? Lol. Hardly undocumented.
What's not documented yet is the death toll You trumpeted gleefully, and perhaps why they are dead.. (some reports say thet tried to wrestle weapons from Israeli soldiers). and what's also not Refuted is WHY they live in Poverty.
NOT Israel.

You. We went over this above.
And you had no real answer then either.


Irrelevant, people on the ground reporting that there are black markets with inflated prices while forgetting the majority of the population lives in poverty are simply paying lip service to Israel's defenders. Nothing more, nothing less.
Already covered.
Gazans live far better than others in other countries without the UNRWA support net and without Billions of aid coming in.
Already explained is why many do live in poverty... untenable Demographics.
Untouched.

Only the majority of them can't afford it. As over 50% of them live in poverty and prices as your articles say are inflated. Oh I'm sorry?
Am I exposing your dishonesty? Here, I'll highlight the part you forgot:
Again, I already said many Gazans (and Cairenes and Somalis and Yemenis and Pakistanis, etc) lived in Poverty and Explained why-- while you innuendo against the Jewish State without documentation of why.
So no, you are Not exposing my "Dishonesty" and I resent this.. but rather your posts betray a Total lack of knowledge about this topic.
-
Laughable. Somalia has over 50 years of oppression at the hands of foreign and local establishments. Pakistan only became a country this century and for most of it's history has been engulfed in various wars. Yemen had a civil war less than 20 years ago. Comparing Gaza to them only serves to cement my point. Not yours. Now stop this. You're making yourself look simple.
And Gaza has a history of terrorism which brought on the Blockade.. nonetheless they are also No worse off the Cairenes just 200 miles away, or Yemenis, nor Pakistanis. ALL of the latter you HAD to Drop as you could NOT explain it away.
 
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If we assume (as newspapers report) that it has happened in international waters, do you think that the israeli commando had the right to board these ships?
I have not seen any reports that it was actually in international waters, can you offer a link please?

In terms of legal issues, if Israel is in an open state of conflict with Hamas, which I think they are, then imposing a blockade is not actually illegal, and it is not illegal to prevent ships from entering the blockade area, regardless of their purpose or intent.

And, second question, let's also assume that the deads are not Israeli (that's also very likely, but newspapers have to confirm that), don't you think that the use of force (10 killed apparently) is totally out of proportion with the danger caused by these ships (humanitarian ships loaded with wheelchairs and food, with several European MEP and apparently some guys who had knives)?
I saw reports that the crew attacked soldiers with bats, knives, etc, and wrestled a gun from one IDF soldier and opened fire, resulting in fire being returned.

Just need to wait for more info.
 
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PeteEU

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I have not seen any reports that it was actually in international waters, can you offer a link please?
Unless they were 24 miles off the coast of Israel, then they were not in Israeli waters. A number of 65 miles off the coast has been floated, and if true, then they we have a legal problem of epic proportions.

In terms of legal issues, if Israel is in an open state of conflict with Hamas, which I think they are, then imposing a blockade is not actually illegal, and it is not illegal to prevent ships from entering the blockade area, regardless of their purpose or intent.
That might be, but that still does not green light piracy, murder and acts of terror. No wait, Israel is special after all and allowed to do whatever they wish.

I saw reports that the crew attacked soldiers with bats, knives, etc, and wrestled a gun from one IDF soldier and opened fire, resulting in fire being returned.
So the crew are not allowed to defend themselves and their passengers form pirates now? So people on boats being attacked by Somalia pirates should not fight back because it is illegal?

Just need to wait for more info.
The IDF info will be watered down, lack actual facts and of course portrait the IDF as the victim. They are already doing this on international TV. They are yet again pulling the defense of "defending ourselves against unarmed fanatics"..

The Hamas version will be blown out of proportion and ignored by the IDF, even though they were the first to say that 19 were killed at least.

The International version from others will also be ignored by the IDF, just as they have done every time despite being taken with their pants down. Lets remind everyone.. The IDF does not torture.. err okay we did, but we dont do anymore! The IDF does not use human shields.. err yea that video of our troops using human shields, well.. moving on.. But the international version will be anti-Israeli according to the IDF of course, so it will be ignored.
 
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