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Islam IS Innocent of Charge of Terrorism

TimmyBoy

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I have to agree with this Saudi cleric that Islam is widely misunderstood and innocent of the charge of terrorism. I also agree, that their has been hypocricy in the West's foreign policy. However, I do not agree with some of the anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle East:

Saudi cleric says terrorism used to discredit Islam Tue Jan 10, 5:40 AM ET



MECCA, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) - A top Saudi cleric told Muslim pilgrims marking the climax of haj on Tuesday that the West was using the global phenomenon of terrorism to scare people away from Islam and discredit legitimate Muslim causes.

Sheikh Abdulrahman al-Sudeis, the state-appointed preacher at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, also called for stability in Iraq and said Islam was innocent of the charge of "terrorism."

"The campaign against Islam has become fierce and Muslims are being described in insulting terms to distort the image of Islam and scare people away from it," he told the 2.5 million pilgrims in a sermon to mark the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha.

He accused Western countries of hypocrisy in promoting freedom and democracy, citing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"When the oppressor Zionist enemy uses its war of smart bombs and tanks against our brothers in Palestine, violating our holy sites, that's not terrorism to their mind -- but defending land, religion and honor is," Sudeis said.

Israel has largely crushed a Palestinian uprising launched in 2000 and Al-Haram al-Sharif, the site of Islam's holy Al-Aqsa mosque, is in Arab East Jerusalem, which was annexed by Israel after its capture in the 1967 Middle East war in a move that has not been recognised internationally.
"Islam is innocent of this grave phenomenon (of terrorism). The shedding of blood in this country and other Muslim countries is a forbidden criminal act," the cleric said, adding that fighting Islamic rulers was "foolish" and counterproductive.

"We should not forget our brothers in Iraq in the continuing spiral of injustice and murder, and (we should) act seriously to bring security, stability and unity to them," he said.

A campaign of violence to bring down the U.S.-allied Saudi rulers has largely run out of steam over the past year. The kingdom has deployed thousands of security forces at the holy sites to prevent possible attacks during the haj.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060110/wl_nm/haj_saudi_sermon_dc
 

TimmyBoy

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Or I should say that Islam does not teach terrorism and does not teach sucide bombings.
 

oldreliable67

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Ah, yeah, same old stuff: Its okay for the Palestinians to deliberately target innocent civilians including women and kids because its not terrorism, but its not ok for anyone else to target those responsible for such murders.
 

mustafa

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oldreliable67 said:
Ah, yeah, same old stuff: Its okay for the Palestinians to deliberately target innocent civilians including women and kids because its not terrorism, but its not ok for anyone else to target those responsible for such murders.
Palestinians are not deliberately targeting civilians for the heck of it ... Do you know what is Newton's law of motion that states that every force has an equal and opposite force .... that law is applicable here ....
palestinians don't do it because they like to see bloodshed ... They are retaliating for Isreal crimes against their people .... tats all ...
 

Calm2Chaos

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mustafa said:
Palestinians are not deliberately targeting civilians for the heck of it ... Do you know what is Newton's law of motion that states that every force has an equal and opposite force .... that law is applicable here ....
palestinians don't do it because they like to see bloodshed ... They are retaliating for Isreal crimes against their people .... tats all ...

So what your saying is that a bunch of woman and children in a outdoor cafe. one day decided to get up and perform crimes against the paestinians. So they retailiated by going after there headquaters at the cafe killing as many of there civilian woman and children soldiers as possible.... NOw that makes everything clearer.............
 

TimmyBoy

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Loki said:
And yet......they do.:confused:
So what you are saying, that for absolutely no reason at all, Palestinians ate their rice krispies one morning and just for kicks, just for fun, decided to sucide bomb Israeli civilians. Is this what you are saying? And while we are at it, are you also saying this is the same case for the September 11 sucide hijackers? They just woke up one morning, ate their rice krispies and just for absolutely no reason at all, decided "ahh, what the hell, let's just hijack planes and crash them into the WTC even though saint America hasn't done anything to us, we'll do it for no reason at all and just for fun."
 

TimmyBoy

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Calm2Chaos said:
So what your saying is that a bunch of woman and children in a outdoor cafe. one day decided to get up and perform crimes against the paestinians. So they retailiated by going after there headquaters at the cafe killing as many of there civilian woman and children soldiers as possible.... NOw that makes everything clearer.............
No, what the poster is saying, is that the Israeli military decided to kill Palestinian civilians, not to mention, that Palestinians were removed from where they were living through the use of force. So, the Palestinians have treated the Israelis in the same manner as the Israelies treated the Palestinians. Tooth for tooth, eye for Calm, that's what you preach, so I think, by your logic, it is OK for the Palestinians to do this. After all Palestinian civilians were killed so why not Palestinians kill Israeli civilians? Palestinian terrorists have stated that "you kill our civilians so it's only fair we kill your civilians." Not that I agree with your logic Calm or the logic of the Israeli government or the Palestinian terrorists. If you ask me the Israeli government has acted just as much a terrorists as the Palestinian terrorists.
 

Calm2Chaos

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TimmyBoy said:
No, what the poster is saying, is that the Israeli military decided to kill Palestinian civilians, not to mention, that Palestinians were removed from where they were living through the use of force. So, the Palestinians have treated the Israelis in the same manner as the Israelies treated the Palestinians. Tooth for tooth, eye for Calm, that's what you preach, so I think, by your logic, it is OK for the Palestinians to do this. After all Palestinian civilians were killed so why not Palestinians kill Israeli civilians? Palestinian terrorists have stated that "you kill our civilians so it's only fair we kill your civilians." Not that I agree with your logic Calm or the logic of the Israeli government or the Palestinian terrorists. If you ask me the Israeli government has acted just as much a terrorists as the Palestinian terrorists.

Ok ... works for me, live by the sword die by the sword... If your saying that the Isrealis are purposely targeting civilians and killing them for no reason and under no provication. Then your right... eye for an eye. Is that what your saying? That Isreal puposely targets Palestinian civilians for death with no provication?
 

TimmyBoy

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Calm2Chaos said:
Ok ... works for me, live by the sword die by the sword... If your saying that the Isrealis are purposely targeting civilians and killing them for no reason and under no provication. Then your right... eye for an eye. Is that what your saying? That Isreal puposely targets Palestinian civilians for death with no provication?
The Palestinians were provoked first by the Israelies when the Israelies forcefully removed them from the land they were living on through the use of force. Their was also the willful targetting of Palestinian civilians in order to accomplish this, a good example is the Stern Gang. So, I guess, by your own logic, it is a just punishment that Palestinians kill Israeli civilians. It's kind of like Native American Indians showing up at your house and demanding you to leave your home or else. If you refuse, you are shot dead. But the Native Americans would claim they are fully justified in doing what they are doing because, after all, they were on the land first before you.
 

TimmyBoy

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And even if the Israelies are not intentionally targetting civilians today, they still kill civilian bystanders, which lead the family members of those bystanders killed to seek revenge.
 

Calm2Chaos

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TimmyBoy said:
And even if the Israelies are not intentionally targetting civilians today, they still kill civilian bystanders, which lead the family members of those bystanders killed to seek revenge.
Well no... Least in my opinion anyway. There is a monster amount of difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage from a millitary operation. If your going to send people out to a civilian gathering place and detonate c4 or spray them down with sub machine gun fire. Then yes....you need to expect the same treatment back.

Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization. These groups are responsible for 1400 dead civilians. These are group that are not there for revenge though. There sole purpose is the destruction of Isreal. Eye for an eye is fine. But 1400 deaths by targeting civillians seems to have gone past the point of retaliation and jumped dead into terrorism
 

TimmyBoy

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Calm2Chaos said:
Well no... Least in my opinion anyway. There is a monster amount of difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage from a millitary operation. If your going to send people out to a civilian gathering place and detonate c4 or spray them down with sub machine gun fire. Then yes....you need to expect the same treatment back.

Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization. These groups are responsible for 1400 dead civilians. These are group that are not there for revenge though. There sole purpose is the destruction of Isreal. Eye for an eye is fine. But 1400 deaths by targeting civillians seems to have gone past the point of retaliation and jumped dead into terrorism
And Israel has killed a much higher number of civilians than 1400, so I guess by your logic, these Palestinian terrorist groups still have a score to settle to make things even.
 

Calm2Chaos

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TimmyBoy said:
And Israel has killed a much higher number of civilians than 1400, so I guess by your logic, these Palestinian terrorist groups still have a score to settle to make things even.
I am admittedly not on expert on this problem. But I rarely hear about Isreal sending troops in to kill civilians. Is this the case? Does Isreal send a man or two into large gathering places and target just civilians?
 

TimmyBoy

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Calm2Chaos said:
I am admittedly not on expert on this problem. But I rarely hear about Isreal sending troops in to kill civilians. Is this the case? Does Isreal send a man or two into large gathering places and target just civilians?
It's because the news media doesn't always report these incidents. I can tell you though, that the US has killed many civilians and in the past has intentionally targetted civilians. It's part of the reason why 3,000 American died on September 11. It was payback. The US is a leading terrorist state. When it comes to Israel and the Palestinians, the conflict is about land and yes, many Palestinian civilians were forceably removed from their land and some were killed intentionally. This injustice, and this cycle of tooth for tooth, eye for eye is what keeps the never-ending conflict going. The terrorists groups targetting Israel want to destroy Israel because they feel Israel has no legitimacy in existing because, they feel their land they were living on for thousands of years was stolen from them by the Jews. The Jews feel like the land is legitimately theirs. My point view and I illustrate it by drawing this hypothetical analogy to Americans. If Native American Indians showed up with tanks and guns and told you that your house doesn't belong to you that you worked for all of your life and that now you must live in poverty in a refugee camp and if you don't like that, then you will be shot, this would not go over very well with alot of Americans. But the Native Americans would argue that in actuality the land belongs to them and they were forced off the land, much like the Jews were thousands of years ago.
 

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I know our foreign policy in the past hasn't been of the greatest quality, and sometimes it has been down right corrupt. But to say that 9/11 was PAYBACK is inane.

We did nothing to deserve 9.11. Yes we backed Osama at one point. Yes we thought Saddam was the lesser evil when compared to the Iotolas(sic?), but we didn't intentionally target 3,000 civilians. Our government has made many mistakes, but right or wrong at the time they thought this was the best course of action at the time.

I also would like to see some valid proof that the Israelis have purposely targeted Palestinian civilians. You claim that this common place and it's a big media conspiracy that these actions carred out by the Isalies are not reported. Care to prove it with credible sources?
 

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SixStringHero said:
I know our foreign policy in the past hasn't been of the greatest quality, and sometimes it has been down right corrupt. But to say that 9/11 was PAYBACK is inane.

We did nothing to deserve 9.11. Yes we backed Osama at one point. Yes we thought Saddam was the lesser evil when compared to the Iotolas(sic?), but we didn't intentionally target 3,000 civilians. Our government has made many mistakes, but right or wrong at the time they thought this was the best course of action at the time.

I also would like to see some valid proof that the Israelis have purposely targeted Palestinian civilians. You claim that this common place and it's a big media conspiracy that these actions carred out by the Isalies are not reported. Care to prove it with credible sources?
September 11 was payback. I was in a foreign country when September 11 happenned. Where I was at, all the natives celebrated September 11, (seriously they did) and this was not a Middle Eastern or Arab country where I was at. These natives were Christians. Some of them considered Bin Laden a hero and others said the US was the real terrorist. Americans have failed to look at themselves in the mirror. And really, we have done much worse than September 11 in the recent past and in many instances, this type of activity never made the news, so the vast majority of Americans were unaware of what their government was doing in their name. One of them came up to me and said, "Now you understand how we felt when US bombers bombed our country." Of course, not to go into specific details, we didn't take it so kindly. But where I was at, many people held big parties in celebration of the September 11 attacks.
 

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Where was this?

I still think our part of the country is much more civillized in mant aspects.

I don't know a single person who was prasing the Tsunami that killed thousands of muslims. We even gave millions in aid yet people like this still hate us.

It makes me wonder why do we even bother trying to make people happy who wish us harm on any given day.
 

TimmyBoy

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SixStringHero said:
Where was this?

I still think our part of the country is much more civillized in mant aspects.

I don't know a single person who was prasing the Tsunami that killed thousands of muslims. We even gave millions in aid yet people like this still hate us.

It makes me wonder why do we even bother trying to make people happy who wish us harm on any given day.
This was in the Republic of Srbska in Bosnia. This part of Bosnia is where the Serbs live. I mean, I am not lying, they literally threw parties to celebrate September 11. We were put on a high state of alert and were on a mission to capture war criminals who were using Tito's underground tunnels to hide out and evade capture. You could hear the cheers from the houses and the clapping. At the time when I heard them, I had no idea what had just happenned. We were just placed on an extreme high alert. After returning back to my base camp, the chow hall had a TV where you could watch CNN and it was their that I learned what happenned.
 

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Re: Islam IS Innocent of Charge of Terrorism

TimmyBoy said:
I have to agree with this Saudi cleric that Islam is widely misunderstood and innocent of the charge of terrorism. I also agree, that their has been hypocricy in the West's foreign policy. However, I do not agree with some of the anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle East:
Here’s another bunch of quotes from the most holy writings of Islam. We are talking here about the word of Allah as set forth by The Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). The most perfect human who ever walked this planet.

The holy Koran and the Hadiths (sayings about the prophet cover the issue of terrorism in great detail.

Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”
Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”
Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”
Tabari IX:42 “We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.”
Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”
Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
That’s just a tiny sample. As you can see from the link, it goes on for nine pages and it fully covers the teachings of Islam as regards terrorism.

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes1.html#terrorism

PS. In case it’s not clear from the context, the “Apostle” in the quotes above refers to no less than the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
 

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It is PC crap to suggest that Islam is a nonviolent religion.

Islam was born in violence, and that is where it has remained.

The only talk of peaceful co-existence in the Koran is AFTER you have put a sword to the throats of all the infidels and converted them or killed them. Once you have bestowed rightful Islam onto the infidels, then you are to treat them as brothers.

Their unprovoked attacks on civilizations ranged from Spain to the Phillipines, and their fanatical bloodlust has been at or near the root of just about EVERY major bloody conflict in the last hudred years.

Even WWI could have been avoided if not for the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand at the hands of a bloody Turkish Muslim group called, "the Black Hand."

History is just overwhelmed with examples. Islam is far MORE guilty of terrorism than people realize, not LESS!
 

TimmyBoy

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aquapub said:
It is PC crap to suggest that Islam is a nonviolent religion.

Islam was born in violence, and that is where it has remained.

The only talk of peaceful co-existence in the Koran is AFTER you have put a sword to the throats of all the infidels and converted them or killed them. Once you have bestowed rightful Islam onto the infidels, then you are to treat them as brothers.

Their unprovoked attacks on civilizations ranged from Spain to the Phillipines, and their fanatical bloodlust has been at or near the root of just about EVERY major bloody conflict in the last hudred years.

Even WWI could have been avoided if not for the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand at the hands of a bloody Turkish Muslim group called, "the Black Hand."

History is just overwhelmed with examples. Islam is far MORE guilty of terrorism than people realize, not LESS!
I am famaliar with this piece of World War I history because I have been to the city where that assisination took place. Sarajevo. The Black Hand was not a Muslim group, this was a Serb nationalist group that wanted independence from the Austrian Hungarian Empire. Given that the Black Hand was a Serb group, if you want to label a religious affiliation to it, you would have to label it as a Christian group, because Serbs are orthodox christian. I see alot of racist and uneducated statements about Islam. Why don't you seriously take the time to learn or study Islam from a scholar of Islam. I learned a little bit about Islam in my Middle East Politics class and while I was in Bosnia. My professor used to work for the CIA and she lived many years in the Middle East. You have fundamentalists in all religions, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism. Fundamentalists exist in all religions. Actually, I think here in the US we have more christian fundaementalists who are more extreme than the Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East.
 

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Religion equals violence no matter how you cut it.:roll:

Why did bin laden turn on the US? That is an easy one. He got pissed because the Saudi king chose the USA to protect Saudi soil in the first Gulf War.


Why do the Serbs dislike the US?
Well we did stop the murdering A-holes:2wave:
 

TimmyBoy

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cherokee said:
Religion equals violence no matter how you cut it.:roll:

Why did bin laden turn on the US? That is an easy one. He got pissed because the Saudi king chose the USA to protect Saudi soil in the first Gulf War.


Why do the Serbs dislike the US?
Well we did stop the murdering A-holes:2wave:
Religion doesn't equal violence so that human nature equals violence. The anti-religion communists were some of the most violent people in history. America's founding fathers presided over the genocide of the Native Americans (heh and hence the Cherokee, btw, I have a little bit of Cherokee blood in me, though, I am not a true Cherokee, true Cherokees can be white as snow or black as charcoal, blood is not what makes a cherokee). Anybody from any background is capable of anything in the name of their religious or political ideology. That doesn't make the religion or political ideology bad as it simply is human nature to be prone to violence at times and to justify such violence by twisting and distorting religious and political ideas.
 
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TimmyBoy said:
Or I should say that Islam does not teach terrorism and does not teach sucide bombings.
Oh really?

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame.

This is not to say that all Muslims or all of Islam is bad but these are the types of things that are taught to children since grade school, the fact of the matter is that the majority of the Muslim world is controlled by Fundamentalist Muslims who teach radical Islam which is a direct cause of Islamic Terrorism.
 
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