Islam at it's core would want to over throw the Constitution

[The Baron]

Yes- I think part of that comes from the way the word "socialism" has evolved.

Socialism hasn't evolved. It is simply a re-packaged turd.

While it is another thread entirely, the fact remains that socialism does not work. Period! It never has. This is not a personal opinion, it is a historical fact. It has always failed.

And--believe me when I say this--it gives me no pleasure to point-out the rather obvious truth that anyone who supports socialism calls into question their own intelligence and credibility.

...like the Nordic model used in Scandinavian countries...

The Scandanavian countries had thriving economies and then in the 70's, adopted Socialistic principles. They abandoned these principles when their economies began to fail. And while "democratic socialist" like Bernie and AOC tout the Nordic model as an example of a successful example of socialism they are simply lying. Today, the Scandinavian countries are not socialistic, a fact that was addressed by the Prime Minister of Denmark in which he plainly stated:

"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."

According to your old understanding and definition of socialism, they would not really qualify.

See above.

But that's what they are choosing to call it, and so it has started to change the meaning of the word. A lot of US politicians who appeal to the term really use it in this latter meaning of the word,..

Socialism is un-American and anti-American.

...while many of their opponents, knowingly or unknowingly, take it to mean the former. I think a lot of this misunderstanding and alarm over the word "socialism" is just coming from talking past each other because we are talking about very different things.

See above comment regarding turds.

 

[The Baron]

Why would that be it, and not, say, the Quran?

It's a fair question.

The whole history of the Koran simply undermines itself. Muhammed said all kinds of things that were written down and collected. Ultimately, you ended up with multiple Korans.

The same is not true of the Bible. Even the most archaic manuscripts are compared to today's Bible and they read the same.

I think I've shared with you in the past (I've certainly shared with someone around here!) there is an entire field of study called Textual Criticism that helps us to know that what we have today are accurate translations. Something that was greatly aided by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls which I'm sure you are, at least, familiar with.

 

[The Baron]

Generational welfare is a much smaller problem than what politicians have used to make hay:

Is it?!?!?!

Today we have an entire families of people who expect to receive a hand-out for not working from people who are forced to pay because they do work. And studies have shown the number one health problem among welfare recipients is obesity! And one of the biggest problems of welfare recipients today is not that they worry about their next meal. No, instead one of the biggest problems among welfare recipients today (and the no. 1 problem according to some sources) is obesity!

And sorry to contradict you, but welfare spending is HUGE!

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

It's not like we're welcoming the devil. We're talking about Christ taking His rightful place.

I get that. And of course, Islam is also all about the God of Abraham taking His rightful place. The US Constitution is all about power remaining divided, so both religions are fundamentally at odds with the US Constitution.

I doubt that you will ever find a Muslim that will agree with me...but it's cute that you think you could.

Muslims want the God of Abraham to rule over all the Earth. Go ahead and tell me that you don't want the God of Abraham to rule over all the Earth.

It was a test. And God did NOT allow Abraham to sacrifice his son. Get the story straight.

I never said it wasn't, and I never said He did. I am quite familiar with the story. Here is the commandment Elohim gave to Abraham:

"Then God said, 'Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.'" Genesis 22:2

Learn your Bible.

Learn something of your history. Even the Framers recognized that the Constitution wasn't perfect and even addressed that fact in one of the Federalist Papers (though I forget which one).

That isn't relevant to the point. Perhaps Islam is justified in overthrowing the US Constitution because the Framers themselves admit that it isn't perfect. Regardless of whether it is justified or not. Islam would like to see man's law supplanted by God's law. Christianity would like the same thing, and for the same reasons.

We would have to believe in the same God for that to be true. Since we don't...it isn't.

See above.

Christians and Muslims both believe in the God of Abraham. Elohim, the Lord of Hosts.

I suppose I could explain hyperbole to you or that the "cities" that the Jews attacked in Canaan were military post that did not house women and children which "recent" archeological expeditions have been able to validate . I suppose I could tell you about ancient inscriptions from peoples like the Amalekites which have been found and detail military victories against Israel where every "man, women and child" were killed--a claim that is demonstrably untrue as evidenced by the existence of Jews today.

I could explain all of this and the fact that multiple books have been written on these subjects and more but I just don't think it would would make any difference to you at all...

Yeah, I get that the entire Bible is an exercise in hyperbole. Regardless, in the Bible, God said: "Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’” 1 Samuel 15:3

He commanded the genocide of the Amalekite people and took the time to specify not to spare any adorable little infants.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No.

And point-of-fact, the Bible doesn't tell us to burn witches at the stake. Those who did such things did not do so because the Bible required it. You have found a problem with Christians...not with the Christianity.

He's got you there @ataraxia. The Bible says to stone witches to death, not burn them. Get it right.

“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” Leviticus 20:27

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

A white nationalist with the SKULL of a dead person as an avatar invoking MLK and pretending to teach The Bible.

 

[ataraxia]

No.

And point-of-fact, the Bible doesn't tell us to burn witches at the stake. Those who did such things did not do so because the Bible required it. You have found a problem with Christians...not with the Christianity.

So what makes you think you are not one of those Christians?

 

[The Baron]

I get that. And of course, Islam is also all about the God of Abraham taking His rightful place. The US Constitution is all about power remaining divided, so both religions are fundamentally at odds with the US Constitution.

I'd say that was true of Islam but not of Christianity. Our Founding Fathers relied heavily on Christianity to give us the Liberties that we have today.

Muslims want the God of Abraham to rule over all the Earth. Go ahead and tell me that you don't want the God of Abraham to rule over all the Earth.

There are two problems here:

1. Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. Not even remotely true.

2. Your statement assumes that God is not currently in control. He is.

I never said it wasn't, and I never said He did. I am quite familiar with the story. Here is the commandment Elohim gave to Abraham:
"Then God said, 'Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.'" Genesis 22:2
Learn your Bible.

I'm quite familiar with it. And if you are then you are aware that God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice his son. And the bitter irony here is that He did not spare His own Son.

That isn't relevant to the point.

It was very pertinent to my point.

Perhaps Islam is justified in overthrowing the US Constitution because the Framers themselves admit that it isn't perfect. Regardless of whether it is justified or not. Islam would like to see man's law supplanted by God's law. Christianity would like the same thing, and for the same reasons.

Once again, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.

Christians and Muslims both believe in the God of Abraham. Elohim, the Lord of Hosts.

So you're suggesting that Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty--the Creator of the Universe and not just some prophet?

Do I understand you correctly?

Yeah, I get that the entire Bible is an exercise in hyperbole.

I don't think you do as your next statement betrays this claim.

Regardless, in the Bible, God said: "Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’” 1 Samuel 15:3
He commanded the genocide of the Amalekite people and took the time to specify not to spare any adorable little infants.

You insist that the "entire Bible is an exercise in hyperbole" then uncritically accept--in the very next sentence--that the above statement is literal.

You should be more careful.

 

[The Baron]

He's got you there @ataraxia. The Bible says to stone witches to death, not burn them. Get it right.

“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” Leviticus 20:27

Congratulations on taking a verse from the Old Testament which only applied to Old Testament Jews and only during Old Testament times.

This never applied to Christians.

 

[The Baron]

A white nationalist...

I'm not a white nationalist.

And why do you think I'm white?

...with the SKULL of a dead person as an avatar...

Pay attention! It's actually a skull of a demon...a dead one.

And what's wrong with skulls, anyway?

...invoking MLK...

You have a problem with MLK, Jr?

And you call me the "white nationalist"?

...and pretending to teach The Bible.

I'm not pretending.

I'm actually teaching you something.

You should pay attention. You have a lot to learn.

 

[The Baron]

So what makes you think you are not one of those Christians?

Haven't burned a witch at the stake in, at least, six months.

 

[ataraxia]

Haven't burned a witch at the stake in, at least, six months.

I am so glad- but that’s a personal interpretation. That says more about you than anything about scripture.

But I bet if you really wanted to, you could find ways to “properly interpret” scripture to have it command it. Scripture is vague, nebulous, self-contradictory, and random enough to match any current taste, opinion, temperament, or mood. It can even accommodate changing tastes, opinions,and moods.

In the mood for war? Peace? Love? Hate? Tolerance? Exclusion? Sift through all the passages, cherry pick and choose the stuff you like, “properly interpret” and “historicize” away the stuff you don’t, and you will be good to go! There is something there for everyone!

 

[The Baron]

I am so glad- but that’s a personal interpretation. That says more about you and scripture.

Not at all true. Christ did away with the Law. The New Testament is quite clear about this point. We are now under grace and not the Law.

I bet if you really wanted to, you could find ways to “properly interpret” scripture to have it command it. Scripture is vague, nebulous, self-contradictory, and random enough to match any current taste, opinion, temperament, or mood. It can even accommodate changing tastes, opinions,and moods.

Oh, I'm certain I could but I couldn't do it and still be honest about what I was saying.

TV evangelist are a great example of what you're saying.

In the mood for war? Peace? Love? Hate? Tolerance? Exclusion? Sift through all the passages, cherry pick and choose the stuff you like, “properly interpret” and “historicize” away the stuff you don’t, and you will be good to go! There is something there for everyone!

Again, you can do that but you can't do it and be honest about what you're doing nor can you be correct in what you're saying. There is a way of proper interpretation.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I'd say that was true of Islam but not of Christianity. Our Founding Fathers relied heavily on Christianity to give us the Liberties that we have today.

Whether or not that is true doesn't matter. Do Christians want the US Consitutuion to limited the power of government, or would they rather have the God of Abraham to be the government and rule with unlimited power, unrestricted by the US Constitution?

1. Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. Not even remotely true.

2. Your statement assumes that God is not currently in control. He is.

Ok then. Muslims worship the God to whom Abraham nearly sacrificed his son. Are you saying that you don't worship the God of Abraham?

I'm quite familiar with it. And if you are then you are aware that God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice his son. And the bitter irony here is that He did not spare His own Son.

I never said He did.

It was very pertinent to my point.

To recap the subject under debate, my position is that Christianity at its core would want to do away with the US Constitution. Your position is that it wouldn't. Presenting a justification for why it's okay for Christians to want to do away with the US. Constitution, since even the framers admitted that it isn't perfect, only addresses the point insofar as it is a tacit admission that position is the correct one, and that Christianity at it's core seeks to supplant the US. Constitution.

Once again, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.

To be clear, you are saying that you do not worship the God of Abraham? I'm telling Him you said that.

So you're suggesting that Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty--the Creator of the Universe and not just some prophet?

Do I understand you correctly?

Nope. I'm saying that Muslims and Christians both worship the God of Abraham.

Some Christians think that Jesus has a complex and incomprehensible triune relationship with the God of Abraham, wherein He is the Son of the God of Abraham, but is also one with the God of Abraham. That the God of Abraham is one God, but has three aspects, and that Jesus is one of those aspects. And Jesus doesn't know all the things that the father knows, but is still not a separate entity from the Father for reasons not comprehensible to the limited minds of mortal men.

Other Christians think that triune business is a bunch of hokum and that Jesus is just the Son of the God of Abraham, full stop.

Regardless of the specific nuances of ecclesiastical differences between various sects, folks who worship the God of Abraham, the same that guided David's hand when he slew Goliath, are worshiping the same God. Pretending like you worship completely different beings just because you don't agree on a few specifics is just juvenile.

I don't think you do as your next statement betrays this claim.

You insist that the "entire Bible is an exercise in hyperbole" then uncritically accept--in the very next sentence--that the above statement is literal.

You should be more careful.

Well, I don't think He literally said that. I think the 'character' of God said that in the context of a symbolic mythology about the nature of humanity and its relationship to nature and the cosmos. Certainly, the character literally said that in the book, regardless of whether that book is literally true, or merely a hyperbolic mythology that exaggerates deeds and histories and anthropomorphizes the forces at work in the universe for dramatic effect.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Not at all true. Christ did away with the Law. The New Testament is quite clear about this point. We are now under grace and not the Law.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." -Matt 5:17-20

 

[Jredbaron96]

Frankly, the differences between Christianity and Islam are simply too many to list here.

Would be news to some, who hold that certain sects of Christianity are more different to each other than to Islam.

Islam says you will submit to Islam or you'll be killed.

Would be a surprise to the Caliphates, many of whom held substantial populations of Christians and Jews for centuries.

By contradistinction, Islam teaches that Muslims may lie. It's called "taqiyya".

Allowing believers to lie about their faith to protect their lives and loved ones is hardly a knock against the Muslim faith.

 

[ataraxia]

Not at all true. Christ did away with the Law. The New Testament is quite clear about this point. We are now under grace and not the Law.

So why are Christians so eager to push laws on things such as abortion or gay marriage?

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

[The Baron]

Whether or not that is true doesn't matter.

It matters greatly!

If our rights come from God the government has no right to take our rights away. If our rights come from government, then government has every right to take them away as they please.

Yours is a very naïve view.

Do Christians want the US Consitutuion to limited the power of government....

Yes, government can't be trusted.

...or would they rather have the God of Abraham to be the government and rule with unlimited power, unrestricted by the US Constitution?

Yes, God can be trusted.

Ok then. Muslims worship the God to whom Abraham nearly sacrificed his son. Are you saying that you don't worship the God of Abraham?

No, I'm saying they don't.

To recap the subject under debate, my position is that Christianity at its core would want to do away with the US Constitution.

I've no desire to do away with it. I'm not aware of anyone that does except left-wingers and other un-American losers. That's why you see left-wingers, Democrats, progressives, liberals, socialist and other associated collectivist attacking our rights to free speech, right to worship, right to peaceful assembly, etc. These are the real threats to our Constitution and our American way of life.

It was Christians that crafted our Constitution. It is secularist that seek to replace it.

Pay attention to what is actually happening.

Your position is that it wouldn't. Presenting a justification for why it's okay for Christians to want to do away with the US. Constitution, since even the framers admitted that it isn't perfect, only addresses the point insofar as it is a tacit admission that position is the correct one, and that Christianity at it's core seeks to supplant the US. Constitution.

I will say it quite clearly--there is nothing in Christianity's doctrine that would have any of us to wish for the replacement of our Constitution. Do I think that God will one day rule the entire Earth?

Yes, I do.

Does that require us (Christians) to seek to somehow undermine our Constitution?

Absolutely not.

And again, you ignore that our Constitution is being undermined already--not by Christians--but by leftist.

You have simply created a strawman argument to demonize Christians.

To be clear, you are saying that you do not worship the God of Abraham? I'm telling Him you said that.

Once again, I'm saying that Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham.

They worship a moon god. This is him...

 

[The Baron]

Nope. I'm saying that Muslims and Christians both worship the God of Abraham.

That is demonstrably false. Once again, go ask any Muslim if they worship Jesus Christ as the Lord God Almighty, Creator of the Universe.

When they say, "no", then you will know you are wrong.

Some Christians think that Jesus has a complex and incomprehensible triune relationship with the God of Abraham, wherein He is the Son of the God of Abraham, but is also one with the God of Abraham. That the God of Abraham is one God, but has three aspects, and that Jesus is one of those aspects. And Jesus doesn't know all the things that the father knows, but is still not a separate entity from the Father for reasons not comprehensible to the limited minds of mortal men.

This is also incorrect.

Christians believe that God exists in three persons but with a single essence. There is only one God and He exists in three persons.

Other Christians think that triune business is a bunch of hokum and that Jesus is just the Son of the God of Abraham, full stop.

And they're both wrong and un-biblical.

Regardless of the specific nuances of ecclesiastical differences between various sects, folks who worship the God of Abraham, the same that guided David's hand when he slew Goliath, are worshiping the same God.

See above.

Pretending like you worship completely different beings just because you don't agree on a few specifics is just juvenile.

See above.

Well, I don't think He literally said that. I think the 'character' of God said that in the context of a symbolic mythology about the nature of humanity and its relationship to nature and the cosmos. Certainly, the character literally said that in the book, regardless of whether that book is literally true, or merely a hyperbolic mythology that exaggerates deeds and histories and anthropomorphizes the forces at work in the universe for dramatic effect.

...this reads like a Thesaurus threw-up on your keyboard...

 

[The Baron]

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." -Matt 5:17-20

Amen.

Romans 6:14
...because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[The Baron]

Would be news to some, who hold that certain sects of Christianity are more different to each other than to Islam.

And who would that be?

Would be a surprise to the Caliphates, many of whom held substantial populations of Christians and Jews for centuries.

Only if they pay the jizya.

Allowing believers to lie about their faith to protect their lives and loved ones is hardly a knock against the Muslim faith.

It's not about allowing Muslims to lie to protect their lives or the lives of their loved ones.

It's about allowing them to lie.

 

[Jredbaron96]

And who would that be?

Vladimir Putin.

Only if they pay the jizya.

And they don't have to pay the zakat.

It's not about allowing Muslims to lie to protect their lives or the lives of their loved ones.

Yes it is. That's exactly what it says in the Koran. Taqiyya comes from the word "caution".

"The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from Allah. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution." - Quran 3:28

 

[The Baron]

So why are Christians so eager to push laws on things such as abortion or gay marriage?

Why are leftist so eager to promote the passage of laws such as abortion and gay marriage.

Ultimately what all of this revolves around is a war of world-views. And in this war there are many that wish Christians would simply "lay down their arms" and surrender.

And I've no intention of surrendering.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

[ataraxia]

Ultimately what all of this revolves around is a war of world-views. And in this war there are many that wish Christians would simply "lay down their arms" and surrender.

And I've no intention of surrendering.

View attachment 67353228

The battle of worldviews ultimately comes down to one one of belief in external authority as ultimate source of morality versus an internal individual/social one: one thinks that reason, personal conscience, and debate and rational discussion in a society should be the basis of morality.

The problem with the appeal to external authority is that you can’t have a rational debate with someone who’s only argument is “because God says so”. It’s a conversation stopper. No amount of facts, rational argumentation, data, is ever going to convince them to change their mind or compromise. It’s all just about asserting authority. This sort of worldview is fundamentally incompatible with modern democracy.

 

[The Baron]

Vladimir Putin.

You could have quoted any theologian / scholar / apologist in the world and you chose...Vladimir Putin.

Obviously you're not taking this serious.

And they don't have to pay the zakat.

Which does NOT change the fact that in Islamic communities you have to pay the tax or convert to the "religion of peace" or be killed.

I've no idea what you were trying to accomplish with that last comment.

Yes it is. That's exactly what it says in the Koran. Taqiyya comes from the word "caution".
"The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from Allah. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution." - Quran 3:28

From the source I provided that you ignored at your own peril...

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences" or "gain the upper-hand over an enemy." There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya (the Shia name). These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Quran​ Quran (16:106)- Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie. Quran (3:28) - This verse instructs believers not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly. Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49) Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..." For today's reader, the circumstances for betraying your word are not specified, leaving this verse open to interpretation. According to Yusuf Ali in his commentary: "if your vows prevent you from doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons, you should expiate the vow." (Presumably, whatever advances the cause of Islam would qualify as 'doing good'). Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers. Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" (see also 5:89) Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means 'cunning,' 'guile' and 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21) Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.