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Is this Muslim in the minority? [W:125]

Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


Can you resist the compulsion to split infinitives, garble syntax and indulge in many other strange abuses of the English language even as you attack the posting style of others?

Can you back up even a single thing you say with anything resembling facts, data, or any other form of substantiation?
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

Now that is really comical.

The height of conjecture served as a valid poll analysis and you go into a tizzle?
In due time and when I (not you) decide.

Should we not meet again before, Happy New Year.

I will be interested to see what you concoct, and how your cooking together of your own evidence, pans out.

Places you may want to consider: "Develop the notion that Muslim communities are an important element of a wider civil society response to extremism, and have a voice and, further than this, a say in the development of counter-narratives, community-based projects, and efforts to aid vulnerable members of their communities."

Just a moment...

Just a moment...

"The Pew survey found that British Muslims have a stronger Islamic identity than do Muslims elsewhere in Europe. Fully eight-in-ten (81%) British Muslims think of themselves as Muslims first rather than as British"

In Great Britain, Muslims Worry About Islamic Extremism | Pew Research Center

This, even though it is pretty much accepted that the UK has done the most, by way of multicultural policies, to make Muslims feel accepted.

Another place to look:

British Muslim Perspectives on Multiculturalism

But of course, you'll provide superior sources. I can't wait!
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

No problem with the PEW content. What I miss is how Choudury represents a majority (implied).

And, to lighten things up a bit :mrgreen:before you are also lured into the same alley of obvious frustration that others appear to have hurtled down, it might be interesting to hear what percentage of Brits see themselves as Brits first rather than English, Scottish, Welsh Cornish....whatever.

Call that a false equivalence by all means, I won't disagree. The similarity does however lie in both instances serving as a qualifier for behavior. Better said NOT serving when based on assumption alone.

Before it gets completely forgotten, the BBC drew conclusions from its own survey. Something the Wail chose to largely omit from reporting, instead inserting its own interpretation. That may be perfectly ok for the Wail to do (seeing how it is after all the Wail) but it's not reporting.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

It's an excellent point. I think you'd find 85%+ of Scots identifying as Scottish before British. You'd find 60%+ Yorkshiremen identifying as Yorkies before British, or even English, too. I suspect those who identify as British first will be a tiny minority, I'd guess something around 15%, and they'll be predominantly English and/or with armed forces connections.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


How the hell is that an excellent point! Even if someone were to self identify as Scottish, Welsh etc. that is still a part of the UK:doh Moreover, the Scots recently voted to stay part of the UK.

The last time I looked, Muslim was a religion.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

How the hell is that an excellent point! Even if someone were to self identify as Scottish, Welsh etc. that is still a part of the UK:doh Moreover, the Scots recently voted to stay part of the UK.

The last time I looked, Muslim was a religion.

Identity is about feelings and sympathy and sense of belonging. Everyone's is made up of different elements. For someone supposedly antipathetic towards multiculturalism, you seem very committed to a politics based on affiliation to a rigid and exclusive group mentality.The fact that one could feel most strongly identified as a Muslim doesn't exclude the possibility of feeling wholly British/English/Irish, or gay/woman/Trekkie.

As with most nationalist arguments, yours seems to see something sinister about the idea that their (contrived) nationality might not be their strongest point of identification. Your 'Britishness', whatever that might be, may well be the thing that defines you to yourself the most, but we aren't all you. The fact that not everyone feels like you doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't is a potential terrorist sympathiser.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

I've seen Muslims eat fish'n chips. That should clinch it.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


A sense of belonging! The irony:rofl
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

No one has labeled "every adherent of that religion a threat"
You just used the #1 Strawman in the world and this message board for the last decade: "All Muslims are terrorists."
Though Islam is very Inordinately violent and intolerant.

and we are Not talking about national or religious crime rates (everyone has robbers and rapists), we are talking Crimes committed in the NAME of one religion against another, because of that difference.
Those are the ones that would make a religion a threat to others.
And on that front, Islam 'wins' in a Landslide/exponentially.
 
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Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

Of course, that won't be the 51% who sympathise with hate preachers
I get it, those that sympathize with hate preachers wouldn't be seen dead eating fish'n chips.

Guess that puts me under suspicion then.

do you actually read articles in their entirety from time to time. Or just what you feel supports your agenda?

Like
Mind you, looking at some of the attitudes here, I would not be surprised how many support such opinions.
Looking at some of the attitudes on here, I would not be surprised if any more sensible address were not shreddered from the start. By application of the same anti-Muslim agenda one gets to see more and more.

If 45 pct, 51 pct or whatever higher percentage that suits the day and convenient agenda are put under general suspicion, I guess it won't be long before alienation of all of Muslims will have been completed. So to follow up on Nawaz's observation, you yourself are doing the opposite of what he proposes.
 
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Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

How the hell is that an excellent point! Even if someone were to self identify as Scottish, Welsh etc. that is still a part of the UK:doh Moreover, the Scots recently voted to stay part of the UK.

The last time I looked, Muslim was a religion.
Try, if you please, not to get too confused on terms and terminology.

The UK is a geographical and political entity, to identify as British (or Welsh etc. before that) a completely different ball game).

Most Britons identify as being from their country first of all. Those countries being Scotland, Wales and England. Heck they each even have their own football team.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

It can obviously also mean that the person being dismissed isn't worth wasting anymore time trying to educate...

In his case it means I know more than he does on this issue, and he can't bluster his way past the facts I've laid out like he usually does in every post!
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

:lamo:lamo:lamo
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

The moment I saw the Anjem, I knew the manner the "debate" will take: Tunnel visioned monologue.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

I believe that Anjem speaks in behalf of the majority except that they do not show it. The more successful Anjem becomes the more the majority gains confidence and coming forth.

Since Islam is a culture and society also then that means that they can be biased. Thereby even the monologue may be considered as a victory with them, while be perceived as a cornered rat speaking in monologues trying to get away while disregarding questions made. Just showing up on Youtube or TV can be considered as victory, anything can really.
 
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Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


How the hell is that an excellent point! Even if someone were to self identify as Scottish, Welsh etc. that is still a part of the UK:doh Moreover, the Scots recently voted to stay part of the UK.

The last time I looked, Muslim was a religion.

You have said nothing that contradicts, what I wrote. So, do those countries form part of the UK? Yes or No...




Where have I said I do not support those Muslims, standing against extremism? Actually, can you post links to those groups I'd be inclined to sign up and offer some much needed support. They have a fight on their hands for sure, considering the traction of extreme ideology sweeping large parts of the world.
It would be nice if you offered a 'single' source in support of what you're saying (I'm not even sure what it amounts too). I noticed sometime back you drew conclusions on something you thought could be 'implicitly' taken from my argument. I do not think the majority of Muslims in the UK are terrorists. What I do believe is the majority hold some very questionable beliefs; and those beliefs are counter to a free, tolerant and liberal society. I'll give you another example:

"Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published today" [...]

"The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. 1,001 non-Muslim Britons were interviewed" [...]

Very alarming, wouldn't you say?

"She expressed concern that British Muslims were less happier and less "thriving" than Muslims overseas. "The British Muslim community is disproportionately unemployed."

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll | UK news | The Guardian

This last bit should come as no surprise, if you've done any form of study on minority communities. Acculturation in the UK is in a woeful state. a multiculturalism that encourages policies on migrants own groups may hinder the development of social contracts across ethnic boundaries, lack of language skills is a particular hindrance' (Koopmans 2010, p.10). You only have to look at the numerous work by Ted Cantle et al: "notions that, 'early forms of multiculturalism spoke only to separate communities, separately and in effect maintained an essentialism of minority communities hindering dialogue with the majority community" (Cantle 2012, p.58). Moreover, many British Muslim attitudes towards integration were, 'staunchly neo-orthodox defining an incompatibility of Western values and Islam, with 70% of Muslim leaders wanting a dualism system of Religious Sharia law' (Joppke 2009, p.454).
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

You have said nothing that contradicts, what I wrote. So, do those countries form part of the UK? Yes or No...
Of course they are but I really don't know where you think you're going with this.

I made a comparison to your original statement that Muslims identify as Muslims first, before identifying as British. To show that Britishness appears to be of equally lesser importance even to those one might call indigenous. Yet that form of identification or non-identification all on its own not to be representative of enmity towards the concept or nationality as such. Something you appear to be implying nevertheless. Or why ever bring it up?

Try to follow logic a bit in understanding the secondariness of identifying as British not being confined to just Muslims, eh?

Well, if that's your take, good. Seeing how you live in the country and I haven't for a long time, why not go find those yourself instead of asking for links from someone over 2,000 kms away?
Well, as long as you show capacity and willingness to differentiate between those (and not to discount the rest of your post), that's just great. It's not an impression that you gave (least not to me) so far but I'll agree on the subjectiveness of perceptions.

So what solution, if I may ask, can you think of in addressing beliefs held questionable?

I have for instance addressed the desired duality of British and Sharia law elsewhere (possibly even in here, can't remember) by advocating the abolishment of religious arbitration courts altogether. ALL such courts, irrespective of creed.

Your turn.
 
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Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

So, after Pages of persistent and empty denial of the numbers...
You now post (without ever conceding) that there IS a problem..
But... the Burden [Shift routine/trick] is somehow again on your Opponent and it's "His turn" to answer with a "Solution" for a "problem" you denied existed/minimized for many pages and in response to many posters.
Because you post No real info, just challenge it without citation of your own, we always and necessarily see this 'technique'.

and speaking of citation..
As Paul probably remembers, I posted that Gallup poll/Guardian Link as an OP 6 Years ago:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html
He was [at least] post #10 on Page One of that long-running contentious string. (after 'liking' my denialist/apologetic opponent on post #9)
My, how the board has changed/come around since!
 
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Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


Looking back at what I wrote I don't think it was too far, from where I sit today. The biggest shift in my thinking is that the Muslim community has to take their portion of blame (something I previously neglected to consider). Their lack of integration has exasperated the problem. I'm comfortable with my opinions.
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


Again, how could it possibly be my turn? You've said absolutely nothing substantive or provided any counter evidence. You can't just tweak and adjust what I write, and pretend it is some form of polemic.

So I'm clear, you do believe there are problems within the Muslim community?
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

Again, how could it possibly be my turn? You've said absolutely nothing substantive ...........
does reading it again help?
or provided any counter evidence.
what are you on about? not provided any counter evidence to what? Your interpretations, arrived at in whatever manner you please, of actual (original) poll conclusions? You haven't even provided the BBC poll without the convenient negation of its conclusions by someone else.
You can't just tweak and adjust what I write, and pretend it is some form of polemic.
Look pot, just don't get into calling games with kettles, eh? Practice what you preach or discussing this any further with you will become pointless.
So I'm clear, you do believe there are problems within the Muslim community?
Of course I do. Just because one is kept too busy on here in combating the summary condemnations levelled by people that like to generalize everything, doesn't mean the other priority remains unnoticed.

So, having asked you your solution to an issue specified and having gone ahead by addressing a part of it myself, what do you find so objectionable about "your turn"?
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?


I don't think I've ever encountered someone so adept at saying so much, without saying anything :?

"Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published"

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll | UK news | The Guardian

As you've neglected to say anything specific on the link previously, can you please show i've drawn "generalisations" from a poll that was unanimous?
 
Re: Is this Muslim in the minority?

I don't think I've ever encountered someone so adept at saying so much, without saying anything :?
Well, if that's your conclusion on the matter, I guess we might as well end this here (as was to be expected).

You obviously want to push your stance on the matter and discuss nothing at all beyond that agenda, then, when others won't comply with that design, copping out by accusing them of the very same thing you are most guilty of.

So, seeing how I don't find discussing anything with posters of your stance remotely constructive, have a nice one.
 
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