Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?[W:272]

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

What does a Truther website and an interview with a former NSA personnel regarding the spying program have to do with the Iraq War and its oil prospects?

Government Bad, okay?!? It fits on a bumper sticker!

 

[kjwins]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Government Bad, okay?!? It fits on a bumper sticker!

For one I'm not talking to you. 2 he's a big boy, he can make up his own mind.

I know one thing that won't fit on a bumper sticker. You're ego

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Its not a truther site. The site is called truth dig. The guy developed the technology the NSA uses to protect us from terror. He also talks about 9/11 & the war. Watch it if you want.

Anyone peddling the idea that the U.S. Government intentionally let 9/11 happen for nefarious purposes is a Truther.

It also has next to nothing to do with what is being discussed.

 

[kjwins]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Anyone peddling the idea that the U.S. Government intentionally let 9/11 happen for nefarious purposes is a Truther.

It also has next to nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Like I said watch if you want, he never says the Government intentionally let 9/11 happen.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

I do think that the administration was hellbent on war with Iraq (witness the immediate aftermath of 9/11, where they were scrambling for anything to tie Saddam to it) and was willing to ignore facts that didn't fit the narrative.

:shrug: you can argue that, sure. The problem is, when trying to build the case "Saddam isn't interested in WMD's anymore", there are precious few facts to build on. There is a reason why Republicans, Democrats, Americans, Russians, French, and everyone else all came to generally the same conclusion about Saddam and WMD - because, given the evidence available at the time, it was the reasonable conclusion to come to.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

For one I'm not talking to you.

That's funny - you quoted me.

2 he's a big boy, he can make up his own mind.

Indeed. That's why he's capable of identifying nuttery.

I know one thing that won't fit on a bumper sticker. You're ego

Actually that would. It's only 8 letters and an apostrophe, after all.

 

[Captain America]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

:shrug: you can argue that, sure. The problem is, when trying to build the case "Saddam isn't interested in WMD's anymore", there are precious few facts to build on. There is a reason why Republicans, Democrats, Americans, Russians, French, and everyone else all came to generally the same conclusion about Saddam and WMD - because, given the evidence available at the time, it was the reasonable conclusion to come to.

Evidence available or evidence presented?

Hey, after 9/11 I was ready to nuke any place that sold turbans and raced camels. I have a feeling most Americans were.

But, I strongly believe that the information put out there was misleading and purposely so. I believe the democrats, the media, the republicans all fell for it hook line and sinker. The timing was perfect. And I believe that Bush Corp. was behind the Great American hoodwink.

Just an opinion, of course. And that opinion is based on my personal observations to the lead-up.

We were ALL played like a fiddle. Some more unwillingly than others, perhaps. But I think we were all duped. Hindsite being 20/20, I believe that today even more than I believed it when it was happening.

 

[kjwins]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

That's funny - you quoted me.



Indeed. That's why he's capable of identifying nuttery.



Actually that would. It's only 8 letters and an apostrophe, after all.

I quoted you, because you quoted me first, on Cheney.

How would you know its nutty.

Only people with big ego's say things like that.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Evidence available or evidence presented?

Available. That's the point of bringing up the fact that multiple administrations of both parties and multiple nations, several of whom were opposed to the invasion all came to the same conclusion - Those who had an incentive to present the counter argument (if the evidence supported it) did not do so. Instead, they all generally agreed that it was likely Saddam was continuing to develop WMDs.

But, I strongly believe that the information put out there was misleading and purposely so. I believe the democrats, the media, the republicans all fell for it hook line and sinker. The timing was perfect. And I believe that Bush Corp. was behind the Great American hoodwink.

:shrug: then I would urge you to self-educate. I've been run through that exact scenario on multiple occasions to demonstrate the inherent uncertainty in analysis - even knowing what we know now to guide us, there is no honest way that you can make the evidence available to decision-makers then stack up to "Saddam isn't pursuing WMD". The most you can push it to is justifying a significant reduction in confidence ratings.

Just an opinion, of course. And that opinion is based on my personal observations to the lead-up.

Then I would suggest that you decide instead to base your opinion on the available data and some common sense. The Democrats had access to every piece of Intelligence the Bush administration did, and much of that evidence dated to before he was even President. Then, being brilliant enough to dupe Democrats, the IC, friends, and enemies alike to agree with his preferred assessment, he is dumb enough to forget to plant the evidence.

It's always fun (and easy!) to think bad things about people we don't like. But a theory where George W is both brilliant enough that he invents time travel to go backwards to the Clinton administration to convince them of his evil secret fraud and smooth-talking enough that he also convinces the intelligence services of France and Russia to publish the same when they know it isn't true isn't one that holds water.

 

[Captain America]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Available. That's the point of bringing up the fact that multiple administrations of both parties and multiple nations, several of whom were opposed to the invasion all came to the same conclusion - Those who had an incentive to present the counter argument (if the evidence supported it) did not do so. Instead, they all generally agreed that it was likely Saddam was continuing to develop WMDs.



:shrug: then I would urge you to self-educate. I've been run through that exact scenario on multiple occasions to demonstrate the inherent uncertainty in analysis - even knowing what we know now to guide us, there is no honest way that you can make the evidence available to decision-makers then stack up to "Saddam isn't pursuing WMD". The most you can push it to is justifying a significant reduction in confidence ratings.



Then I would suggest that you decide instead to base your opinion on the available data and some common sense. The Democrats had access to every piece of Intelligence the Bush administration did, and much of that evidence dated to before he was even President. Then, being brilliant enough to dupe Democrats, the IC, friends, and enemies alike to agree with his preferred assessment, he is dumb enough to forget to plant the evidence.

It's always fun (and easy!) to think bad things about people we don't like. But a theory where George W is both brilliant enough that he invents time travel to go backwards to the Clinton administration to convince them of his evil secret fraud and smooth-talking enough that he also convinces the intelligence services of France and Russia to publish the same when they know it isn't true isn't one that holds water.

Thanks for your reply. Dude was right. Your ego wouldn't fit on a bumper sticker. LOL!

But I wouldn't love ya any other way. Have a great day CP!

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

I quoted you, because you quoted me first, on Cheney.

How would you know its nutty.

:shrug: because I've been following this issue since the get-go, and have a couple of years of personal experience even taking part. Yes. It's nuttier than squirrel-poop.

Only people with big ego's say things like that.

Well, I'd like to say I'm the firsts person to admit I'm a bit of an a$$hole, but unfortunately there are probably quite a few people on the board who are faster typists

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Thanks for your reply. Dude was right. Your ego wouldn't fit on a bumper sticker. LOL!

...did you miss the several years in which we knew each other during which I was an active-duty United States Marine?


It's not a Big Ego. It's Correctly Sized for my Level of Awesome :mrgreen:

But I wouldn't love ya any other way. Have a great day CP!

You as well, cap.

But seriously, look into the conspiracy theory nuttery. You'll find it's no better than any other conspiracy nutter. There's only one Conspiracy Theory out there that happens to be true, and that ain't it.


But if you do come to the conclusion that George W was an evil, hyper-intelligent, smooth-talking time traveler with mind-powers and the greatest acting talent in the history of man, let me know I will buy you a beer to hear that one explained.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
tell me if that is not good enough...
And as for the later question, that has nothing to do with the thread topic... And that problem is a direct result of the poorly handled Iraq war...

We harbored some of those very same terrorist organizations and protected them in the aftermath of the invasion.
GWB's defense policy board chairman helped this particular terrorist group raise money in the US on "accident".

:shrug:

Should we have overthrown the US govt as well?

 

[Captain America]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

...did you miss the several years in which we knew each other during which I was an active-duty United States Marine?


It's not a Big Ego. It's Correctly Sized for my Level of Awesome :mrgreen:




You as well, cap.

But seriously, look into the conspiracy theory nuttery. You'll find it's no better than any other conspiracy nutter. There's only one Conspiracy Theory out there that happens to be true, and that ain't it.

Well, just voicing my opinion. I know you sold your encyclopedias because you already know it all but I still think you haven't been paying very close attention. Either that or you see blue and call it red. (When we all know it's really purple. LOL!) Seriously, I respect your input (always do) even though I think you are a bit short-sighted and have a selective memory on this one. I don't think you could ever convince yourself you're not the smartest person in the class and I'll not try to convince you otherwise. But you're still one of the better members here, IMO.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Well, just voicing my opinion. I know you sold your encyclopedias because you already know it all but I still think you haven't been paying very close attention. Either that or you see blue and call it red. (When we all know it's really purple. LOL!) Seriously, I respect your input (always do) even though I think you are a bit short-sighted and have a selective memory on this one. I don't think you could ever convince yourself you're not the smartest person in the class and I'll not try to convince you otherwise. But you're still one of the better members here, IMO.

You know, I think that is the sneakiest, most flattering way anyone has ever told me I am not as smart as I think I am :lol: Thank you Cap - coming from you, that actually means quite a lot.



:shrug: we were both there when the debate was going on. When I switched over to military intel, it became a matter of professional study. The conspiracy theories are just that, man - conspiracy theories.


Except, of course, when it comes to the Bank for International Settlements. That happens to be true. And worrisome.

 

[Captain America]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

You know, I think that is the sneakiest, most flattering way anyone has ever told me I am not as smart as I think I am :lol:

:shrug: we were both there when the debate was going on. When I switched over to military intel, it became a matter of professional study. The conspiracy theories are just that - conspiracy theories.

Well, since I'm usually the smartest person in class, the confidence of knowing that allows me to make certain concessions with other people who think they are. LOL!

I was active Navy. (Another testament to my superior intellect.)

Seriously, did I ever tell you "thanks" for your service. If not, THANK YOU!!!" I have enjoyed watching you mature here at Debate Politics. It's been a long time. Stick with me kid and I'll make ya as smart as me someday.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Well, since I'm usually the smartest person in class, the confidence of knowing that allows me to make certain concessions with other people who think they are. LOL!

I was active Navy. (Another testament to my superior intellect.)

Seriously, did I ever tell you "thanks" for your service. If not, THANK YOU!!!" I have enjoyed watching you mature here at Debate Politics. It's been a long time. Stick with me kid and I'll make ya as smart as me someday.

And for yours as well. I can't say (and I'll bet you can commiserate) it was always a pleasure, but it was always an honor.

But as for the Navy? I served on a MEU once. No thanks. Boats are like fat, ugly, cruel women - I'm glad God made someone to love them, and I'm glad it ain't me.

I appreciate the offer of guidance and training. But how do you know I won't become a whiny B----, secretly marry a princess, lose my hand, and eventually become the apprentice of a Sith Lord?

 

[Captain America]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

And for yours as well. I can't say (and I'll bet you can commiserate) it was always a pleasure, but it was always an honor.

But as for the Navy? I served on a MEU once. No thanks. Boats are like fat, ugly, cruel women - I'm glad God made someone to love them, and I'm glad it ain't me.

I appreciate the offer of guidance and training. But how do you know I won't become a whiny B----, secretly marry a princess, lose my hand, and eventually become the apprentice of a Sith Lord?

Right!?!?

I have come to learn that anything is possible! Ever since I read "Renae." NEVER, in a million-zillion years, did I see that coming.

Ahem.... Anyways,

It took me a while to get used to my shield, but, secretly, I always wanted to have a cape. I thought about coming out donning a floor-length, red, white and blue cape at the Comic-con but I was afraid my admirers would accuse me of being a Batman wannabe. Yes, I admit it. I always knew I was a cape man more than a shield-er. But what would the guy's down at Marvel say?

 

[cpwill]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Right!?!?

I have come to learn that anything is possible! Ever since I read "Renae." NEVER, in a million-zillion years, did I see that coming.

Ahem.... Anyways,

It took me a while to get used to my shield, but, secretly, I always wanted to have a cape. I thought about coming out donning a floor-length, red, white and blue cape at the Comic-con but I was afraid my admirers would accuse me of being a Batman wannabe. Yes, I admit it. I always knew I was a cape man more than a shield-er. But what would the guy's down at Marvel say?

Capes are awesome, but unfortunately often lethal (for their owners). The Incredibles did a good job breaking that down. I think deep hoods are better, all around.

 

[joG]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Iraq was no threat to the US, nor was Afghanistan for that matter. Security for public good? You mean like the NSA surveillance that does nothing to protect us against terror.

Why does the US set up military bases all over the world. Which Bush wanted to do in Iraq. To protect economic interest, in the case of Iraq their's nothing to protect but oil.

You have a very anecdotal way of thinking, it would appear. That is fine, if you have a good way of sorting them. But your questions seem to indicate you do not.

 

[joG]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

I don't think international law cares what country it is. An act of aggression is a war crime. Do you know that Bush & Cheney can not travel to certain countries without being arrested.

You seem to fall prey to semantics and poor categorization. An act of aggression is not necessarily a war crime and a local political interpretation of right and wrong does not mean something is a crime anywhere else. You must find better arguments than that.

 

[kjwins]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

You have a very anecdotal way of thinking, it would appear. That is fine, if you have a good way of sorting them. But your questions seem to indicate you do not.

Still don't make it false. Sure as hell does not make you right. What else you got?

 

[kjwins]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

You seem to fall prey to semantics and poor categorization. An act of aggression is not necessarily a war crime and a local political interpretation of right and wrong does not mean something is a crime anywhere else. You must find better arguments than that.

Did Iraq attack us? Did they have anything to do with 9/11? Did we attack them for no reason?

 

[kjwins]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

You seem to fall prey to semantics and poor categorization. An act of aggression is not necessarily a war crime and a local political interpretation of right and wrong does not mean something is a crime anywhere else. You must find better arguments than that.

Principle VI
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation
of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts
mentioned under (i).
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, illtreatment
or deportation to slave-labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in
occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the seas, killing of
hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages,
or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhuman acts done against any
civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds, when such acts are
3
done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against
peace or any war crime.
P

 

[joG]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Still don't make it false. Sure as hell does not make you right. What else you got?

I think that considering what you have put forth that it was already overkill.