Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Fire degrading structural integrity... is it really that hard to understand?

OK, Fire degrading Structural Integrity .... HOWEVER
just exactly how does it happen that the heat from said fires
would uniformly and totally weaken ALL of the steel in such a manner
as to produce the observed result?

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

OK, Fire degrading Structural Integrity .... HOWEVER
just exactly how does it happen that the heat from said fires
would uniformly and totally weaken ALL of the steel in such a manner
as to produce the observed result?

imo, the fires didn't and they didn't need to "uniformly and totally weaken ALL the steel"

It is clear you have not bothered to study any of the information provided to you or you would not be making such statements.

Just like in CD, not all the steel needs to be wired with explosives.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

OK, Fire degrading Structural Integrity .... HOWEVER
just exactly how does it happen that the heat from said fires
would uniformly and totally weaken ALL of the steel in such a manner
as to produce the observed result?

By the whole floor(s) catching on fire? Seems pretty obvious.

 

[Menard_K]

How about the fact that you are wrong?
The fact that every truther has their own unique CT that cannot coexist with another's CT?
the Fact that there were 4 planes hijacked and crashed on 911?
The fact that you have no facts?

Exactly what evidence supports the hijacked airliners theory?
Where is the smoking gun? the murder weapon?
Can the prosecution present the physical evidence, that is sufficient
aircraft bits of such a type & character as to prove beyond any doubt
that the aircraft identified as FLT11, FLT175, FLT77 & FLT93 actually
existed & indeed were the aircraft crashed into the locations alleged by
the mainstream ( propaganda machine ) .....

what?

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

By the whole floor(s) catching on fire? Seems pretty obvious.

You seem to be missing the point,
By what means was the heat so evenly distributed & at such an intensity
as to make the "collapse" event as fast & uniform as was observed?

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

imo, the fires didn't and they didn't need to "uniformly and totally weaken ALL the steel"

It is clear you have not bothered to study any of the information provided to you or you would not be making such statements.

Just like in CD, not all the steel needs to be wired with explosives.

Not all of the steel is wired for demolition, true
HOWEVER, it is done in a very well planned out pattern,
what we are discussing here is FIRES, that is a totally uncontrolled
phenomenon, producing the same result as an engineered demolition of a building.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Gravity was the main driving force... but it forced the 18,000 cubic yards of air on each floor out of the way...this took place at the rate of about 1 floor (18,000 cu yards of air) per second... that is the floor collapse was about 19 seconds and it was about 90 floors. This air was moving very fast horizontally. In fact the air at the center traveled 60 (or 35) feet to reach the perimeter and blast our the windows. 65' in .1 seconds is 650 feet in 1 sec or over 400 mph. That super tornado force winds... and this over pressure blasted out with it everything between the slabs... ceiling tiles, furniture and everything. In the process this power over pressure destroyed everything on the floors including the windows and it cam out in focused ejection of ground up debris/rubble. The force also likely broke the panels connections... and this led to the facade breaking free in sections and being pushed away... to topple in anything from a single panels to assemblies as wide as the tower and 10 stories high in some cases.

The floors inside the core collapsed down too. But there was less mass because of the shafts. But the falling mass was enough to destroy the braces in the core leaving it too unstable to stand. It toppled from Euler forces and the vibration and forces of the over pressure.

This follows the "total Collapse was inevitable .... " bit, what I find so completely out-of-line here
is the fact that it is assumed that the forces would be uniform enough, and all of the connections
within the tower would be uniform enough to produce this complete & total destruction as observed.
because if say the connections between the outside wall and the deck on the south side of the building were to give way in advance of the other connections on the same floor, the deck would tilt and provide a ramp for tons of material to slide down to street level and therefore deprive the "pile driver' of mass.
total "collapse" was NOT inevitable!

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

And how did you compute this likelyhood when you can't even tell us the tons of steel on each level of the core.

How did it weaken in less than TWO HOURS.

The bottom line is that you don't know and neither does anyone else so you just CLAIM something is likely.

Very Impressive.

So build a model and duplicate the collapse down the building.

PROVE that can even happen. It appears to be so difficult for all of our engineering schools that they won't even discuss trying it. But we are all supposed to BELIEVE.

psik

Of course I don't know... and know knows because no one was there as it happened. What people do is propose LIKELY scenarios based on settled science and engineering... like what it takes to destroy a WTC floor slab and what it can support... Do we know how much heat was present? Not really... But we know the fires were not found because the sprinkler system was destroyed... We know that there were likely some columns destroyed and that heat weakens steel.. and the connections of the sections... they were more vulnerable that the heavier members. We can know that the ejections were not explosions from bombs but over pressures because of the speed. There's lots we can know from engineering and science and we don't have make a full scale model to prove it and we KNOW a small scale model CAN'T prove anything.

Some people understand this... others refuse to.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This follows the "total Collapse was inevitable .... " bit, what I find so completely out-of-line here
is the fact that it is assumed that the forces would be uniform enough, and all of the connections
within the tower would be uniform enough to produce this complete & total destruction as observed.
because if say the connections between the outside wall and the deck on the south side of the building were to give way in advance of the other connections on the same floor, the deck would tilt and provide a ramp for tons of material to slide down to street level and therefore deprive the "pile driver' of mass.
total "collapse" was NOT inevitable!

Nonsense... when the tops came apart the weight dropping was relatively uniform over the entire footprint. It did no tilt and it wouldn't matter much one the mass came down.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Not all of the steel is wired for demolition, true
HOWEVER, it is done in a very well planned out pattern,
what we are discussing here is FIRES, that is a totally uncontrolled
phenomenon, producing the same result as an engineered demolition of a building.

crap happens.

also you continue to never mention the damage done by the crash and the resulting compromise of the fire proofing on critical structures. If you would have studied some of the links to information you would have a much greater understanding.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

here is a question

Why did it take Jones till 2006 to suggest that CD with nanothermite was used to take the WTC buildings down?
Why did it take Harrit another 3 years to get a paper out on nanothermite? They could have gotten the paper out on the web instead of waiting for the open source journal to accept the paper.

Could it be that DRG, Jones, etc needed to add something for their readers to relish on?

Surely, they could have gotten dust samples in September of 2001. Is there a conspiracy here by some of the CT main stream authors? Or do they prefer to just bash reports that goes against their way of thinking.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Is there any way to cure a truther?

No.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Nonsense... when the tops came apart the weight dropping was relatively uniform over the entire footprint. It did no tilt and it wouldn't matter much one the mass came down.

Having trouble parsing this out
"It did no tilt and it wouldn't matter much one the mass came down."

what did you mean?

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Sorry... The mass was not displaced when the rotation took place. This is true even for 2WTC... the CG was inside the tower and the vast majprity of the mass came straight down (the way gravity works) inside the footprint and on the slabs. Once the ROOSD began it had 70 something floors of floors aligned one atop the other which pretty much made the collapse flow stay inside the footprint. Any lateral force was much less than that of gravity. Yes some bit rotated outside the footprint and when the entire top section broke apart those bits fell down outside the foot print... but the vast majority of the mass simply remained pretty much insider the tower's footprint.

 

[Quag]

Exactly what evidence supports the hijacked airliners theory?
Where is the smoking gun? the murder weapon?
Can the prosecution present the physical evidence, that is sufficient
aircraft bits of such a type & character as to prove beyond any doubt
that the aircraft identified as FLT11, FLT175, FLT77 & FLT93 actually
existed & indeed were the aircraft crashed into the locations alleged by
the mainstream ( propaganda machine ) .....

what?

What?
This has already been posted ad-nauseum. Not my fault if you refuse to learn.
What we are all waiting for with baited breath is your proof there was no planes. so far all I have seen from your side is wild speculation.
heres a little bit of news for you speculation is not evidence.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This follows the "total Collapse was inevitable .... " bit, what I find so completely out-of-line here
is the fact that it is assumed that the forces would be uniform enough, and all of the connections
within the tower would be uniform enough to produce this complete & total destruction as observed.
because if say the connections between the outside wall and the deck on the south side of the building were to give way in advance of the other connections on the same floor, the deck would tilt and provide a ramp for tons of material to slide down to street level and therefore deprive the "pile driver' of mass.
total "collapse" was NOT inevitable!

Once again just because you don't get it doesn't mean its impossible it just means it is beyond your understanding.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Sorry... The mass was not displaced when the rotation took place. This is true even for 2WTC... the CG was inside the tower and the vast majprity of the mass came straight down (the way gravity works) inside the footprint and on the slabs.

The slab outside the core?

But the core supported 53% of the building's weight. Was the center of mass still inside the perimeter of the core? What would happen if the weight was on one side of the slab outside the core? The core was only 85 feet wide on one side so the center of mass would only have to move 43 feet in a certain direction.

It would still be within the perimeter of the building and would get no support from the perimeter on the opposite side from the tilt. So about 75% of the weight would be on one side of the perimeter.

psik

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

There was a lot of grinding and who knows how fine the particulate grinding was... and with the heat of friction very small masses behave differently to heat than larger masses.

Are you never embarrassed to spout such nonsense? Egads, you are so deeply in denial.

There was no "grinding" my friend, there was a mini China Syndrome going on in the bowels of the buildings. It took 3 months to stop it, including the use of Pyrocool. There was literally boiling metal, and THAT is what gave off the aersols.

Grinding...:doh Would that be related to "bumping and grinding?" :lamo

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

here is a question

Why did it take Jones till 2006 to suggest that CD with nanothermite was used to take the WTC buildings down?
Why did it take Harrit another 3 years to get a paper out on nanothermite? They could have gotten the paper out on the web instead of waiting for the open source journal to accept the paper.

Could it be that DRG, Jones, etc needed to add something for their readers to relish on?

Surely, they could have gotten dust samples in September of 2001. Is there a conspiracy here by some of the CT main stream authors? Or do they prefer to just bash reports that goes against their way of thinking.

Considering that Jones had worked with nuclear fusion for a number of years, and was quite educated about matters nuclear, one possible answer to your question regarding the time it took him to get the paper out, could be that he was trying to steer the discussion away from nuclear devices, which he might have already known.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Like I said, it doesn't look like a 757.

Occam's Razor applies.

It doesn't look like a 757 because it is not a 757.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The slab outside the core?

But the core supported 53% of the building's weight. Was the center of mass still inside the perimeter of the core? What would happen if the weight was on one side of the slab outside the core? The core was only 85 feet wide on one side so the center of mass would only have to move 43 feet in a certain direction.

It would still be within the perimeter of the building and would get no support from the perimeter on the opposite side from the tilt. So about 75% of the weight would be on one side of the perimeter.

psik

Who said the core supported 53% of the building's weight? The facade columns supported about 54% (IRRC) of the outside the core floor loads. The core area was quite a bit smaller... no? and there were many shafts with no floors or live loads on them.

I assume you are referring to the tipping top of tower 2. No way was 75% of the mass be outside the footprint. You are making stuff up... in the grand Szamboti tradition.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Are you never embarrassed to spout such nonsense? Egads, you are so deeply in denial.

There was no "grinding" my friend, there was a mini China Syndrome going on in the bowels of the buildings. It took 3 months to stop it, including the use of Pyrocool. There was literally boiling metal, and THAT is what gave off the aersols.

Grinding...:doh Would that be related to "bumping and grinding?" :lamo

How long would it take to lower the temps of 1.5millions tons of debris material 20 degrees F? How would you do it? Pour water on at room temps?

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Who said the core supported 53% of the building's weight? The facade columns supported about 54% (IRRC) of the outside the core floor loads. The core area was quite a bit smaller... no? and there were many shafts with no floors or live loads on them.

I assume you are referring to the tipping top of tower 2. No way was 75% of the mass be outside the footprint. You are making stuff up... in the grand Szamboti tradition.

I told you the NIST said it back in February

http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/142849-9-11-wtc-collapses-70-print.html

Did you complain then?

I didn't say outside the footprint of the building. I said if the center of gravity was outside of the core than that much of the weight would be on the floor slab on that side outside of the core.

psik

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I told you the NIST said it back in February

http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/142849-9-11-wtc-collapses-70-print.html

Did you complain then?

I didn't say outside the footprint of the building. I said if the center of gravity was outside of the core than that much of the weight would be on the floor slab on that side outside of the core.

psik

I don't know if I agree with the 53% regardless of who says it. I need to see how it was determined. I don't believe the CG moved outside the footprint but it was did move outside the core area toward the end so to speak as top was pretty much destroyed.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

How long would it take to lower the temps of 1.5millions tons of debris material 20 degrees F? How would you do it? Pour water on at room temps?

Are you familiar with the properties and success of Pyrocool?

A better question would be "how does a jetfuel and gravity collapse GENERATE such temperatures?"

Those 'hot spots' recorded by AVIRIS, flown by NASA and JPL over the site on September 16, 18, 22 and 23? After it rained on September 14?

What is it about an hour old jetfuel fire that can boil metal?

No Sander, I don't expect a straight answer from you.