Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

This has gone on for so long, I think the topic should simply be ended, and the consensus be "No, they can't be cured. They are simply to crazy."

lol seriously.

"Something supports what I want to believe? Proof of the conspiracy! Something doesn't support what I want to believe? Proof that people are spreading disinformation, thus proving the conspiracy is real!"

There's no talking sense into these people. Just sit back and enjoy the show. I love going to conspiracy websites (honestly, this one is borderline sometimes) and just watching the crazy. Funny and fascinating.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Quote Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
Absolutely and the maths have been done to prove this. Where is your math?

The problem is, as always that you chose to view the problem through your own personal brand of reality distortion instead of trying to understand how things really work. The twin towers were destroyed one floor at a time. When the portion of the building above the impact points became a dynamic rather than a static load it acted directly on the floor below, exceeding that floors capacity by a factor of 30. Then the dynamic forces kept moving downwards (in the direction of gravity) acting on the floors below one at a time. The Twin Towers were not trees. They were after all about 95% air on the inside.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By the "math" do you include the Bazant paper in your list of prof that the WTC towers "collapsed" exactly as they should have driven by gravity to complete & total destruction? what? How do you explain the wave-front of destruction descending at 64% of the acceleration of gravity?

Fact is, people can produce pages & pages of numbers to "prove" almost anything, and until yet another PHD in math comes along to debunk it .... oh well .... I prefer the common sense approach and given common sense + Newtons laws, the "collapse" of the twin towers & WTC 7 are all obviously Controlled Demolition.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously MARK_F doesn't have an explanation as to why the towers could descend at 64% of the acceleration of gravity.
oh well ......

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Obviously MARK_F doesn't have an explanation as to why the towers could descend at 64% of the acceleration of gravity.
oh well ......

No one can explain that because it didn't happen. This is a made up number and they did not accelerate continuously at ANY rate.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Wow. Some people are just bat**** crazy.

Crazy might be the wrong word, but I get your point.

Cognitive dissonance IMO is an involuntary process. Those in denial, for the most part, cannot help themselves.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Crazy might be the wrong word, but I get your point.

Cognitive dissonance IMO is an involuntary process. Those in denial, for the most part, cannot help themselves.

Again I agree with you HD only we disagree with who is in denial

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

No one can explain that because it didn't happen. This is a made up number and they did not accelerate continuously at ANY rate.

At what point did it stop accelerating and at what speed? & how was it measured?

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

At what point did it stop accelerating and at what speed? & how was it measured?

Interesting you are wanting specifics, yet your claim is all based on just watching a vid from a source you distrust (msm)

How about you lay out the calculations that explains what you think happened.

Here is a clue. Do a search. There is a great deal of information for you to look at.

Try reading some of the post at The 9/11 Forum • View forum - Scientific and Technical Forums.

If you are interested in some technical explanations.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Try reading some of the post at The 9/11 Forum • View forum - Scientific and Technical Forums.

If you are interested in some technical explanations.

The home of Kat Dorman, also known as OneWhiteEye.

But it is really so curious that all of the scientific minds in the nation that put men on the Moon can't build a physical model to demonstrate these complete collapses by skyscrapers in 11 years and 10.5 months. 42 days to go to 12 years.

Didn't Galileo do experiments? Maybe physics would have stagnated if Galileo and Newton had had computers to play with.

psik

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The home of Kat Dorman, also known as OneWhiteEye.

But it is really so curious that all of the scientific minds in the nation that put men on the Moon can't build a physical model to demonstrate these complete collapses by skyscrapers in 11 years and 10.5 months. 42 days to go to 12 years.

Didn't Galileo do experiments? Maybe physics would have stagnated if Galileo and Newton had had computers to play with.

psik

I knew you would comment. Noticed I didn't say if all the data was correct or not. I mearly pointed out its a site with opposing views.

Now, psik. You seem to have it all solved. Why has not your word conviced the world of physics?

I won't debate physics with you. I will grant you have a better understanding than me in some areas.

Yet, the majority of your posts promote your model, belittle the physics world, So what have you done to correct his other than rant and post vids? (I do not mean to demean your stance, mearly asking what you are doing to change what you rant on).

ever thought its not worth their time to build the model you want?

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

At what point did it stop accelerating and at what speed? & how was it measured?

Anything that was at rest.. and then moves has to experience acceleration. The initial motion can and has been plotted and the acceleration has been determined for the exterior... say the roof line. But that disappeared after 3.75 sec in WTC 1. The there was..... if you look at the vids.. a huge flash out and massive expulsion of "dust" and debris from about the 95 floor or so... can't recall now... This debris then fell outside the tower at close to free fall. The first heavy object were seen ahead of this and WERE at free fall. But the close to G descent of the debris obscured most of what was happening... and so little to now data can be gotten from the vids because it was behind the dust.

BUT

There is a portion of the building which can be seen and what you see is debris being expelled through the windows... one floor after the other. This expulsion moves from floor to floor at 65 mph... But soon the fall debris catches up and blocks the view.

Determining the end of the collapse is equally indeterminate. It was obscured too. But the noise stopped and that was about 15 - 18 seconds after the collapse began.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

What I want to know is why after 12 years are all the physicists running away from 9/11 and not one has made a model of the collapse? We go to the moon or mars with rovers... and can't figure out the twin towers? Whazzup?

hahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Anything that was at rest.. and then moves has to experience acceleration. The initial motion can and has been plotted and the acceleration has been determined for the exterior... say the roof line. But that disappeared after 3.75 sec in WTC 1. The there was..... if you look at the vids.. a huge flash out and massive expulsion of "dust" and debris from about the 95 floor or so... can't recall now... This debris then fell outside the tower at close to free fall. The first heavy object were seen ahead of this and WERE at free fall. But the close to G descent of the debris obscured most of what was happening... and so little to now data can be gotten from the vids because it was behind the dust.

BUT

There is a portion of the building which can be seen and what you see is debris being expelled through the windows... one floor after the other. This expulsion moves from floor to floor at 65 mph... But soon the fall debris catches up and blocks the view.

Determining the end of the collapse is equally indeterminate. It was obscured too. But the noise stopped and that was about 15 - 18 seconds after the collapse began.

Forgive me for being a pest about this, but what is the source for the "noise stopped ... 15 - 18 seconds"?
and also who clocked that 65 mph and by what means? .... I really wanna know.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I must have done something right M_K refuses to answer any questions I ask of M_K. (post 2382).

So M_K, I really want to know using the vids you claim shows CD, walk us through the one of the vids. Explain what you see and why it has to be CD.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Forgive me for being a pest about this, but what is the source for the "noise stopped ... 15 - 18 seconds"?
and also who clocked that 65 mph and by what means? .... I really wanna know.

You might spend some time reading the discussions at the 911freeforum. You can learn who did what analysis.

The 9/11 Forum • Index page

 

[Mr.Nick]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Over the decade I listened, evaluated, and have come to believe the truthers are wrong. Far too much evidence they want to or blatantly do ignore proves them wrong. Sadly I have a close family member that is a truther extremist. Is there any way to bring him back to reality. Existing truthers need not apply.

There is a good chance Obama (like his other siblings were) was born abroad however, his mother us a US citizen so the whole "birther" stuff is moot.

Also, Joe Biden is next in line and Biden is a lunatic. Do these "birthers" want Biden as president???

 

[CalGun]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

If you knew the birther movement you'd know that isn't true. The fact his month was underage would have precluded him being a citizen if he were born outside the country. Her parents status would not have mattered.

I never believed the birther movement - I figured if there was anything to that story they'd have an airline record and customs record of mother/son entering the country in Hawaii that week - none of which was ever located.

There is a good chance Obama (like his other siblings were) was born abroad however, his mother us a US citizen so the whole "birther" stuff is moot.

Also, Joe Biden is next in line and Biden is a lunatic. Do these "birthers" want Biden as president???

 

[Mr.Nick]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

If you knew the birther movement you'd know that isn't true. The fact his month was underage would have precluded him being a citizen if he were born outside the country. Her parents status would not have mattered.

I never believed the birther movement - I figured if there was anything to that story they'd have an airline record and customs record of mother/son entering the country in Hawaii that week - none of which was ever located.

The mothers age wouldn't preclude anything.

If one parent is a natural citizen then that child is a natural citizen of the United States - age plays absolutely no role (at least not legally).

Once again these people are idiots considering Biden is 10x more kooky and authoritarian than Obama and he would be the next president if anything - even this unprecedented "birther" insanity were to have Obama removed.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Interesting you are wanting specifics, yet your claim is all based on just watching a vid from a source you distrust (msm)

How about you lay out the calculations that explains what you think happened.

Do I have to explain this .... really(?)

I distrust the MSM because they LIED, they show video of buildings clearly
being demolished in a well planned operation, and attribute the destruction to
chaotic damage & gravity. Even the talking heads on the tube said that the
destruction of the towers & WTC7 reminded them of the events of buildings
intentionally destroyed in the course of urban renewal.

Look at the "collapse" of the South Tower, note that the upper part of the building
starts to tip, and then turns to dust... Just exactly how is that a natural gravity driven event?

and as for the north tower, the roof moves first and so the act of having one story drop
down upon the next story is enough to immediately start the whole mass not only moving,
but accelerating at 64% of G .... amazing!

What magic kept all the mass of the alleged pile driver centered over the building so as to
keep pounding it into dust, Please think about this, all of the bolts, welds, rivets ( etc )
in the WTC had been the work of humans, fallible humans, there is no way to guarantee
PERFECT workmanship on every connection & joint in a large structure such as any skyscraper,
so in the event of catastrophic failure, the bits that are weakest will fail first. So at some point
the floor trusses would have a stronger connection to the central core, than to the bits at the
outside of the tower, therefore the floor slab would be supported at the center, but at the outside
edges would drop and form a ramp for all of that rubble to slide off & down to street level.

In any case where there is complete destruction of anything, it calls for an INVESTIGATION
that is one worthy of the name. On 9/11/2001 we have the complete & total destruction of
3 buildings and there was an "investigation" in name only. WE THE PEOPLE have been lied to.
where is the taxpayer outrage?

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Do I have to explain this .... really(?)

I distrust the MSM because they LIED, they show video of buildings clearly
being demolished in a well planned operation, and attribute the destruction to
chaotic damage & gravity. Even the talking heads on the tube said that the
destruction of the towers & WTC7 reminded them of the events of buildings
intentionally destroyed in the course of urban renewal.

Look at the "collapse" of the South Tower, note that the upper part of the building
starts to tip, and then turns to dust... Just exactly how is that a natural gravity driven event?

and as for the north tower, the roof moves first and so the act of having one story drop
down upon the next story is enough to immediately start the whole mass not only moving,
but accelerating at 64% of G .... amazing!

What magic kept all the mass of the alleged pile driver centered over the building so as to
keep pounding it into dust, Please think about this, all of the bolts, welds, rivets ( etc )
in the WTC had been the work of humans, fallible humans, there is no way to guarantee
PERFECT workmanship on every connection & joint in a large structure such as any skyscraper,
so in the event of catastrophic failure, the bits that are weakest will fail first. So at some point
the floor trusses would have a stronger connection to the central core, than to the bits at the
outside of the tower, therefore the floor slab would be supported at the center, but at the outside
edges would drop and form a ramp for all of that rubble to slide off & down to street level.

In any case where there is complete destruction of anything, it calls for an INVESTIGATION
that is one worthy of the name. On 9/11/2001 we have the complete & total destruction of
3 buildings and there was an "investigation" in name only. WE THE PEOPLE have been lied to.
where is the taxpayer outrage?

well we don't agree.

Personally, I am leaning more to the towards the buildings (towers) had a faulty design.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

well we don't agree.

Personally, I am leaning more to the towards the buildings (towers) had a faulty design.

even with "faulty design" WHY should chaotic damage cause coherent "collapse" & into complete destruction.

 

[CalGun]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Go back and research it for the year obama was born - you are speaking of now - not then. Rules have changed.

The mothers age wouldn't preclude anything.

If one parent is a natural citizen then that child is a natural citizen of the United States - age plays absolutely no role (at least not legally).

Once again these people are idiots considering Biden is 10x more kooky and authoritarian than Obama and he would be the next president if anything - even this unprecedented "birther" insanity were to have Obama removed.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

well we don't agree.

Personally, I am leaning more to the towards the buildings (towers) had a faulty design.

It was faulty in that these designs were unsustainable and unsafe. What happened is that the designs could not arrest a large falling mass in the case of the twins which was "freed" by massive mechanical damage from the plane strike and then fires which raged and were not suppressed. The design then with its large column free office space and very light weight construction which was all bolted together could do nothing to arrest the fall of the tens of thousands of tons of mass falling down. It was not the column strength that would stop the collapse but a stronger (much) floor system. But this was hardly practical ... designing a light weight floor to support 20 - 30 times the load. It would then mean thicker and heavier floors and then more mass would be dropping and the design would have to be thicker and so on. INSANE not practical. Once the tops section lost axial support... the towers were goners.

Building 7 had a very unusual design... with massive load transfer structures required because the tower was build of the Con Ed power station. It also had massive amounts of diesel fuel to power emergency power systems. It apparently lost its fire suppression systems early on when an electrical short caused electrical equipment to explode in the load transfer region. Unsuppressed fires likely worked on the joints / connections in the load transfer region, failing the trusses... causing load redistribution and then more failure until the core area had no support and dropped... destroying all the remaining structure below floor 8... which left 40 stories of the curtain wall and the structure it was attached to to plummet to the ground with virtually no resistance for 8 stories.

The above is what the observations of the three buildings' shows. We don't and can't know the precise details of the initiation because in all three cases it took place where there were no cameras present and recording or transducers of any sort working.

The truth movement adherents refuse to both understand and admit that progressive failures due to multiple contributing factors could lead to complete loss of axial strength and rapid collapse from gravity. The collapses look exactly as predicted with loss of support in the regions mentioned above. There is not a thing remarkable about the FORM of the collapse which is explained by the forces present including over pressure of air which expelled enormous about of debris outward as the destructive mass flowed down in the case of the twins. WTC 7 looked like a CD because in most CDs the lower structure is destroyed and the mass above drops down. And so the lower structure WAS destroyed but it was a vulnerable one to massive fires which were not fought but weakened that structure past the point of no return.

There are those who will deny that there was enough fire of heat inside the cores. This denial almost supports the notions of a gravity driven collapse. And without evidence of precisely what was going on in those cores we can only infer from the building movement which was "telegraphed" in some cases to the exterior which we could see... such as the drop of the East Penthouse... or the east west movement of the entire building... or the inward bowing of the north wall as it descended.

The case for planted devices is simply not there... no one has put forth a coherent explanation linking said devices to the building movements. PERIOD.

There are issues of concern to be investigated which relate to the design decisions and to determine precisely what was the sequence of runaway failures and could a different design arrest this. That seems to not have taken place. Odd.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

even with "faulty design" WHY should chaotic damage cause coherent "collapse" & into complete destruction.

I will use your typical answer. Look at the vid.:mrgreen: If no CD was used, it has to be faulty design, and damage done by fire and collision. Now doesn't it?

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

It was faulty in that these designs were unsustainable and unsafe. What happened is that the designs could not arrest a large falling mass in the case of the twins which was "freed" by massive mechanical damage from the plane strike and then fires which raged and were not suppressed. The design then with its large column free office space and very light weight construction which was all bolted together could do nothing to arrest the fall of the tens of thousands of tons of mass falling down. It was not the column strength that would stop the collapse but a stronger (much) floor system. But this was hardly practical ... designing a light weight floor to support 20 - 30 times the load. It would then mean thicker and heavier floors and then more mass would be dropping and the design would have to be thicker and so on. INSANE not practical. Once the tops section lost axial support... the towers were goners.

Building 7 had a very unusual design... with massive load transfer structures required because the tower was build of the Con Ed power station. It also had massive amounts of diesel fuel to power emergency power systems. It apparently lost its fire suppression systems early on when an electrical short caused electrical equipment to explode in the load transfer region. Unsuppressed fires likely worked on the joints / connections in the load transfer region, failing the trusses... causing load redistribution and then more failure until the core area had no support and dropped... destroying all the remaining structure below floor 8... which left 40 stories of the curtain wall and the structure it was attached to to plummet to the ground with virtually no resistance for 8 stories.

The above is what the observations of the three buildings' shows. We don't and can't know the precise details of the initiation because in all three cases it took place where there were no cameras present and recording or transducers of any sort working.

The truth movement adherents refuse to both understand and admit that progressive failures due to multiple contributing factors could lead to complete loss of axial strength and rapid collapse from gravity. The collapses look exactly as predicted with loss of support in the regions mentioned above. There is not a thing remarkable about the FORM of the collapse which is explained by the forces present including over pressure of air which expelled enormous about of debris outward as the destructive mass flowed down in the case of the twins. WTC 7 looked like a CD because in most CDs the lower structure is destroyed and the mass above drops down. And so the lower structure WAS destroyed but it was a vulnerable one to massive fires which were not fought but weakened that structure past the point of no return.

There are those who will deny that there was enough fire of heat inside the cores. This denial almost supports the notions of a gravity driven collapse. And without evidence of precisely what was going on in those cores we can only infer from the building movement which was "telegraphed" in some cases to the exterior which we could see... such as the drop of the East Penthouse... or the east west movement of the entire building... or the inward bowing of the north wall as it descended.

The case for planted devices is simply not there... no one has put forth a coherent explanation linking said devices to the building movements. PERIOD.

There are issues of concern to be investigated which relate to the design decisions and to determine precisely what was the sequence of runaway failures and could a different design arrest this. That seems to not have taken place. Odd.

Your opening is what I basically believe. While the designers may have thought they had a safe design. It shows that is was not as good as they thought.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

It was faulty in that these designs were unsustainable and unsafe. What happened is that the designs could not arrest a large falling mass in the case of the twins which was "freed" by massive mechanical damage from the plane strike and then fires which raged and were not suppressed. The design then with its large column free office space and very light weight construction which was all bolted together could do nothing to arrest the fall of the tens of thousands of tons of mass falling down.

So why hasn't this been PROVEN experimentally in 11 years and 10.5 months?

Instead we are just supposed to BELIEVE people's empty claims. We can't even get trustworthy data on the mass of steel and concrete on every level from any official source. A good computer model can't even be made without that data. The so called "scientific simulation" done by Purdue only deals with the top 20 stories of the north tower and contradicts the empirical data collected by the NIST on the south tower.

psik