Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

[John Liberty]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Over the decade I listened, evaluated, and have come to believe the truthers are wrong. Far too much evidence they want to or blatantly do ignore proves them wrong. Sadly I have a close family member that is a truther extremist. Is there any way to bring him back to reality. Existing truthers need not apply.

I find this thread extremely narcissistic. Talking about curing people with different beliefs?? Are you a statistic?? I want you to know I nearly choked on my lunch when I saw your post. I am thoroughly disturbed now. I don't care what views someone has, it's not a disease to believe something different from someone else.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

But we are supposed to believe the steel heated enough to weaken in less than two hours even though no steel frame building had done that before and none since and we are not given data on the quantity of steel?

psik

no steel frame bldg was hit by a plane and lost columns... and had no fire suppression at all.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I find this thread extremely narcissistic. Talking about curing people with different beliefs?? Are you a statistic?? I want you to know I nearly choked on my lunch when I saw your post. I am thoroughly disturbed now. I don't care what views someone has, it's not a disease to believe something different from someone else.

How about the fact that most seem to be paranoid and delusional?

Look, I am all for "different beliefs". I think Green is the best colour, you think it is Red. Somebody else thinks it is Blue, big deal. Those are different beliefs.

These kind of beliefs however go way beyond just a "difference of opinion" and straight into mental illness. Gigantic omnipresent organizations that can implant images into people's minds and alter photos, and all visual records, as well as bring down 2 buildings without anybody knowing is not a "difference of belief", it is a serious disconnect from reality.

And when you talk to most of these people, it accompanies typical paranoid-persecution behaviors, that nobody believes them simply because they are "being silenced by a vast conspiracy".

 

[CalGun]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Not understanding that a dillsuional belief can be a contributor to many illnesses is very sad.

I find this thread extremely narcissistic. Talking about curing people with different beliefs?? Are you a statistic?? I want you to know I nearly choked on my lunch when I saw your post. I am thoroughly disturbed now. I don't care what views someone has, it's not a disease to believe something different from someone else.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Not understanding that a dillsuional belief can be a contributor to many illnesses is very sad.

A delusional belief is thinking for a moment that any gov't can be trusted.

A delusional belief is that a given mass can completely destroy an object ten times it's mass without extreme velocities.

It's not my opinion... it's the law. Physics... gotta love it!

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

A delusional belief is that a given mass can completely destroy an object ten times it's mass without extreme velocities.

However, it was not the impact that doomed the towers, it was the fires. We have had fires bring down huge structures for hundreds of years, with no impact at all. And the buildings were designed with the idea of survind an aircraft strike from their very design. And they were designed to withstand an impact from the largest passenger aircraft at the time of their design, a Boeing 707.

Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707.

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

Business | Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision | Seattle Times Newspaper

Now notice the date of that article, 1993.

Now the Boeing 707 carries just over 17,000 gallons of fuel.

AA Flight 11 struck Tower 1 with a Boeing 767, with a fuel load of over 24,000 gallons.
UAL Flight 175 struck Tower 2, also a Boeing 767 with over 24,000 gallons of fuel.

So not only were the aircraft much heavier then those it was designed to withstand (122,000 lbs for the 707, 181,000 for the 767), they had in addition almost 1/3 more fuel on board at the time of impact. But the greater mass was inconsequential compared to that of the fires.

 

[sKiTzo]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

charges going off? Or things exploding?

All bombs explode, but not all explosions are bombs.

I would love to be able to look at it that way but I can't because there were explosions in parts of the building that were so far away from where the fires were.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

However, it was not the impact that doomed the towers, it was the fires. We have had fires bring down huge structures for hundreds of years, with no impact at all. And the buildings were designed with the idea of survind an aircraft strike from their very design. And they were designed to withstand an impact from the largest passenger aircraft at the time of their design, a Boeing 707.


Business | Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision | Seattle Times Newspaper

Now notice the date of that article, 1993.

Now the Boeing 707 carries just over 17,000 gallons of fuel.

AA Flight 11 struck Tower 1 with a Boeing 767, with a fuel load of over 24,000 gallons.
UAL Flight 175 struck Tower 2, also a Boeing 767 with over 24,000 gallons of fuel.

So not only were the aircraft much heavier then those it was designed to withstand (122,000 lbs for the 707, 181,000 for the 767), they had in addition almost 1/3 more fuel on board at the time of impact. But the greater mass was inconsequential compared to that of the fires.

You are wrong about the maximum fuel capacity of a 707-320B that the building was designed to withstand a hit from, It was 23,000 gallons.

You are also wrong about the amount of fuel on board the 767-200ER aircraft which struck the two towers. While they did have 24,000 gallon capacities that was for a 7,700 mile range. Aircraft only carry enough for the flight plus some reserve. The planes were going from Boston to California or about 3,000 miles. They had 10,000 gallons of fuel on board when they left Boston. That is a documented reality.

You are also wrong about the weight of the 767s that actually hit the buildings vs. the 707-320B the buildings were designed to withstand. The planes that actually hit the buildings weighed about 285,000 lbs. at impact since they were not maximally fueled and only had about 50 passengers on board. The 707-320B had a max. takeoff weight of 336,000 lbs. and the building was designed to take a hit from it maximally fueled at 600 mph.

The buildings were designed for a hit with about 33% more kinetic energy than either aircraft delivered.

 

[sKiTzo]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I question anything which is presented as factual and appears not to be... regardless of who makes the statement.

Then you must not be a supporter of the official story since nearly ALL of it raises questions upon questions (sorry for not knowing which side you are on I just jumped in the thread)

 

[sKiTzo]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

By the way there Jeffrey, you seem to be avoiding my question to you about the column temperatures in the North Tower you think were required for a natural collapse initiation, since you constantly claim that is what occurred.

The jet fuel being so hot that it melted the columns explanation was the very first thing they went with. At first, everyone went wow I can't believe it was that hot. That story worked for a couple of days (for most of us anyway) until people hit the books. Research and expert testimony revealed the unpopular truth: couldn't happen - jet fuel or no jet fuel. That has been established so many times and for so long that anyone who brings it up still, must have some mental disability.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I don't have a specific answer. Heat weakens steel... destroying its ability to support loads. we don't have adequate data to know how hot each piece and each section of steel got.... or the connections. It's all educated guesses.

We have data on the sizes, materials, and yield strengths of the 98th floor columns where the collapse initiated in the North Tower, as well as the building load above them.

All I asked you was with 20% of the columns removed how hot would the remaining columns need to get to lose enough strength to collapse under their load, since this is what you insist happened.

It is quite a stretch to call what you have been saying in regard to the collapse initiation an educated guess.

P.S. Based on their capacity and the building load of 33 x 10e6 kg above them the remaining 80% of the columns in the North Tower would have to have been heated to at least 650 degrees C (1,202 degrees F) to lose enough strength to just start to collapse. The additionally interesting thing is the 5.1 m/s^2 (16.7 ft/s^2) that the first story of the collapse accelerated at. There is no chance the situation involved columns being heated to the point where they would just start to collapse and then have that kind of acceleration.

You should educate yourself on these points.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I would love to be able to look at it that way but I can't because there were explosions in parts of the building that were so far away from where the fires were.

electrical explosions.. voltage spikes.. how bout that?

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Then you must not be a supporter of the official story since nearly ALL of it raises questions upon questions (sorry for not knowing which side you are on I just jumped in the thread)

I question the conclusions of NIST.. ie their theory about the initiations of the three collapses.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You don't know enough about this and really shouldn't be continuing to comment as though you do.

hahahaha.. you were there with temperature transducers/thermocouples on all the steel?

You keep going on about the columns failing at 98 and I told you that the columns were 3 stories tall and the movement may have begun at 98... but the damage was to the structure BELOW 98. Stop being so dense.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You are wrong about the maximum fuel capacity of a 707-320B that the building was designed to withstand a hit from, It was 23,000 gallons.

Actually this is half-true. The WTC was designed in 1962. 1962 was also the year the first prototype of the 707-320B made it's maiden flight, with commercial deliveries starting in late 1963 (when the WTC designs were already finalized). The WTC specifications were made around the older 707-120 configuration, not the 320B which was still being developed at the same time.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

hahahaha.. you were there with temperature transducers/thermocouples on all the steel?

You keep going on about the columns failing at 98 and I told you that the columns were 3 stories tall and the movement may have begun at 98... but the damage was to the structure BELOW 98. Stop being so dense.

You are showing yourself to be foolish here. You don't need thermocouples to calculate what temperature the steel would start to yield at knowing its size, yield strength at room temperature, and the load above it.

The collapse of the North Tower initiated at the 98th floor. That is well documented. There is also no chance for a 3 story buckle. That is inane to even postulate.

All of your hypotheticals on the collapses seem born of desperation.

 

[sKiTzo]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You were the one who made the silly its never happened before claim. it is not an argument so why would you even say it?

The reason it is of worthy mention is because while it proves nothing, it does bolster the argument immensely by jogging the common sense. If it happened all the time, we wouldn't think twice about it. If it has never happened before in history, there is a reason why that is. Never before in history then suddenly 3 times in one day and the patriot act ALREADY DRAWN UP.......this is unusual. Which one of the white house cronies had said (before 911) "we need a new pearl harbor", was it kissinger?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The jet fuel being so hot that it melted the columns explanation was the very first thing they went with. At first, everyone went wow I can't believe it was that hot. That story worked for a couple of days (for most of us anyway) until people hit the books. Research and expert testimony revealed the unpopular truth: couldn't happen - jet fuel or no jet fuel. That has been established so many times and for so long that anyone who brings it up still, must have some mental disability.

Yes, Jeffrey (SanderO) seems desperate for a natural collapse explanation instead of just calling it the way it is. He needs electrical devices to cause the explosions that were heard and felt. He needs heat to soften the columns enough to instigate the collapse even though he doesn't know how much heat. He needs inertia to be non-existent so the columns can miss each other in the beginning of the collapse to keep from having to face the lack of deceleration as a problem.

It seems Jeffrey is the one with the problem.

 

[sKiTzo]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

electrical explosions.. voltage spikes.. how bout that?

Not possible as an explanation for the amount of damage incurred on lower floors and basement. Small electrical explosions are not that strong. Even if a transformer blew up it would not cause that level of damage.

 

[sKiTzo]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I question the conclusions of NIST.. ie their theory about the initiations of the three collapses.

I don't even question NIST, I just dismiss the entire report. Their job was to come up with filler, and hide the truth.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

no steel frame bldg was hit by a plane and lost columns... and had no fire suppression at all.

And the south tower deflected 15 inches and oscillated for four minutes. Whooppee!

So how did the top 28 stories tilt/rotate 50 minutes later? Where are the physicists explaining that?

psik

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

The reason it is of worthy mention is because while it proves nothing, it does bolster the argument immensely by jogging the common sense. If it happened all the time, we wouldn't think twice about it. If it has never happened before in history, there is a reason why that is. Never before in history then suddenly 3 times in one day and the patriot act ALREADY DRAWN UP.......this is unusual. Which one of the white house cronies had said (before 911) "we need a new pearl harbor", was it kissinger?

No it is a silly argument as it implies that if something has never happened before it cannot happen. Well there were lots of firsts that day. First time passengers jets were deliberately flown at high speed into skyscrapers. First time skyscrapers were left to burn uncontrollably etc etc...
its a pathetic argument that shouldn't be used by anyone who isn't a child.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Actually this is half-true. The WTC was designed in 1962. 1962 was also the year the first prototype of the 707-320B made it's maiden flight, with commercial deliveries starting in late 1963 (when the WTC designs were already finalized). The WTC specifications were made around the older 707-120 configuration, not the 320B which was still being developed at the same time.

Can we see a citation for your claim that the WTC design was for an impact by a 707-120 and not a 707-320B?

I have read it was a 707-320B and the three page white paper that John Skilling mentions was written in February of 1964. I believe the white paper says the building was designed for a hit by a 707-320B moving at 600 mph.

The FEMA report shows it was a 707-320B. See page 19 in Chapter 1. The FEMA report can be found here http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=1728

The NIST report also explains that the 767-200ER aircraft that hit the buildings had 10,000 gallons on them and a light passenger and cargo load and weighed approximately 275,000 to 285,000 lbs.

So your initial post on this was incorrect on both the fuel load and weight of the aircraft. The 707-320B impact which was designed for would have contained significantly more kinetic energy than the actual impacts on Sept. 11, 2001.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

And the south tower deflected 15 inches and oscillated for four minutes. Whooppee!

So how did the top 28 stories tilt/rotate 50 minutes later? Where are the physicists explaining that?

psik

They did.. no rules of nature were violated.

 

[SanderO]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You are showing yourself to be foolish here. You don't need thermocouples to calculate what temperature the steel would start to yield at knowing its size, yield strength at room temperature, and the load above it.

The collapse of the North Tower initiated at the 98th floor. That is well documented. There is also no chance for a 3 story buckle. That is inane to even postulate.

All of your hypotheticals on the collapses seem born of desperation.

not really...perfectly logical... a "three story buckle" what's dat? I said the heat damage extending over mutiple floors and the columns were 3 stories tall. A column can go kittywhampus anywhere along its length and the entire load it supports loses a path to the foundations.

You asked me the temps. You can look up steel performance under heat stress. Now prove that that amount of heat was not present without thermocouple data.