Is there any way to cure a truther?[W:2707]

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

If no plane crashed in Pennsylvania. how do explain away the cell phone calls from people on the plane to their families? If the plane never crashed where are all the people who were allegedly on the plane? Are you claiming that "someone" just made all that crap up and the passengers on that flight and their families never existed? or that they are somehow all "in on" the cover up?

I take that as a straight question, and I will give a straight answer.

Cell phones are designed for pedestrian and vehicular traffic. The entire system is designed for people on the ground.

I know from personal experience that they do not work above about 1500 AGL and about 120 knots. I have observed this in both airplanes and helicopters. In helicopters down low and slow, they DO work, somewhat. Fairly well, depending upon how close to a tower you are. Above 1500 feet, the Nextel and ATT systems both display "No Service" on your phone. Other people besides me have come to the same conclusion and published more precise data than mine on the internet.

Therefore, the cell phone calls that are the very cornerstone of the official story are impossible and faked. Further, close reading of the transcripts of those supposed conversations reveal a theatric quality to them. Staged and unnatural.

I do not know where those people are, and I do not know what became of the plane. I do know that ACARS records show that the airplane that was assigned to be UA93 on that day was still logged in to the ACARS system 30 minutes after the time it supposedly crashed in Shanksville, and at that time it was somewhere in Illinois because the VHF outlet that recorded its being logged in was somewhere in Illinois.

If you examine the biographies of the passengers, a remarkable fact is that many, probably the solid majority of them, were employed in the defense industry, with Boeing and Raytheon fairly well represented.

My personal guess is that most of the passengers were cooperating individuals who were given new identities and substantial, probably never-ending, bank accounts. But that's just a guess, and there are notable exceptions.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I take that as a straight question, and I will give a straight answer.

Cell phones are designed for pedestrian and vehicular traffic. The entire system is designed for people on the ground.

I know from personal experience that they do not work above about 1500 AGL and about 120 knots. I have observed this in both airplanes and helicopters. In helicopters down low and slow, they DO work, somewhat. Fairly well, depending upon how close to a tower you are. Above 1500 feet, the Nextel and ATT systems both display "No Service" on your phone. Other people besides me have come to the same conclusion and published more precise data than mine on the internet.
BS you have never been in a plane or helicopter in your life. I can tell you from personal experience that cell phones will work under 6000' and speed has no effect on them.

Therefore, the cell phone calls that are the very cornerstone of the official story are impossible and faked. Further, close reading of the transcripts of those supposed conversations reveal a theatric quality to them. Staged and unnatural.
BS see above
I do not know where those people are, and I do not know what became of the plane. I do know that ACARS records show that the airplane that was assigned to be UA93 on that day was still logged in to the ACARS system 30 minutes after the time it supposedly crashed in Shanksville, and at that time it was somewhere in Illinois because the VHF outlet that recorded its being logged in was somewhere in Illinois.

You have no understanding of the acars system it does not show the plane being in the air 30 mins after the crash. sorry total fail!

If you examine the biographies of the passengers, a remarkable fact is that many, probably the solid majority of them, were employed in the defense industry, with Boeing and Raytheon fairly well represented.

Pure speculation and utter bs from mr bs himself
My personal guess is that most of the passengers were cooperating individuals who were given new identities and substantial, probably never-ending, bank accounts. But that's just a guess, and there are notable exceptions.

Guess is best you can do but it is not based on any facts merely fantasy of a guy who likes to pretend he can fly when he really is too scared to go up an escalator!

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Guess is best you can do but it is not based on any facts merely fantasy of a guy who likes to pretend he can fly when he really is too scared to go up an escalator!

I will admit that I have disobeyed the flight attendants and used my cell phone to make calls while traveling at 30,000 feet on more than one occasion.

we can talk to the ISS (some 1 million+ feet above the earth) but you can't make a cell phone call from 1/40th the distance?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

An excellent point Oozle! And it is the proverbial double-edged sword, cutting both ways.

Yes, many government plans and records, top secret and otherwise classified, HAVE INDEED made it into the public domain. Northwoods, U.S. v. Reynolds, Pentagon Papers and the items you mentioned.

BUT it is equally true that those revelations have also made it certain that government PRACTICES deception and fraud. It may be revealed (or not) eventually, but government does frequently lie and deceive. That is the point.

And as was demonstrated by Jim Garrison in New Orleans with the JFK assassination, once a serious and principled prosecutor begins to investigate certain events, certain critical witnesses suddenly and mysteriously die. That theme has been repeated many many times, in this country and everywhere else.

Several witnesses, or possible witnesses, regarding the events of 11 September have mysteriously died. A pretty long list.

And can you name us a real life example of this which does not involve another conspiracy theory?

"Oh look, the Government lied about Roswell, therefore they are lying about 9-11 also!"

Sorry, supporting argument failure.

First off, you have to realize that when it comes to secrets, they generally fall into 2 different compartments. One of them is the "Keep secret until XX of YYYY". D-Day is a great example of this, as is the Invasion of Grenada. Yes, these were among the ultimate in secrets, but within 3 days of each happening, the need for secrecy is no longer needed. This is typical of most "secrets" that our government has. It is also why FOIA works so well in most cases.

A good example of this in contemporary is the type of SECRET reports I did daily when I was deployed. The status of our PATRIOT missile forces, manpower levels, alert status, and things like that. It was all SECRET (and even TOP SECRET), but what real value does it have now to anybody, 3-4 years later? Well, quite frankly none.

Then you have the secrets that would get people killed if they were released. The full and unadulterated JFK reports is part of this, because at least some of the information in it came from spies, both Soviet in the US and US in the Soviet Union. Now since the fall of that country it is not as likely that if the names came out they would face a firing squad, but are you willing to take that chance just to know who they are? I know I am not, so knowing their names is not that important to me. These secrets also have a set time frame to expire and become public knowledge, some time in the future after all involved are dead and gone.

Not much unlike the identity of "Deep Throat". Bob Woodward never revealed who it was, and said he never would until after he was dead. It was Mark Felt himself who went public with his identity.

So my challenge to you remains as it has to most other conspiracy theorists. Give me an example of this, not of a conspiracy but of something that actually and factually happened, where even the Government came out and admitted what it did. Good luck, I have made this challenge for years and never once had anybody uncover one that was not just another conspiracy theory.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I will admit that I have disobeyed the flight attendants and used my cell phone to make calls while traveling at 30,000 feet on more than one occasion.

we can talk to the ISS (some 1 million+ feet above the earth) but you can't make a cell phone call from 1/40th the distance?

The International Space Station (ISS) would have very high gain parabolic dishes for transmitting and receiving and so would the earth bound antennas used to communicate with the Space Station.

There is no comparison between that system and a cell phone system, where a tower is needed every 4 to 8 miles.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Because there is something operating called "illusion", that's why.

What might seem obvious to anybody sometimes is an illusion, a mirage, deliberately created by others.

Yes, it is so hard to get thruthers to see the illusions they believe.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

I will admit that I have disobeyed the flight attendants and used my cell phone to make calls while traveling at 30,000 feet on more than one occasion.

we can talk to the ISS (some 1 million+ feet above the earth) but you can't make a cell phone call from 1/40th the distance?

To refresh your memory, the 'cellphone calls' we are talking about happened in 2001.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

And can you name us a real life example of this which does not involve another conspiracy theory?

"Oh look, the Government lied about Roswell, therefore they are lying about 9-11 also!"

Sorry, supporting argument failure.

First off, you have to realize that when it comes to secrets, they generally fall into 2 different compartments. One of them is the "Keep secret until XX of YYYY". D-Day is a great example of this, as is the Invasion of Grenada. Yes, these were among the ultimate in secrets, but within 3 days of each happening, the need for secrecy is no longer needed. This is typical of most "secrets" that our government has. It is also why FOIA works so well in most cases.

A good example of this in contemporary is the type of SECRET reports I did daily when I was deployed. The status of our PATRIOT missile forces, manpower levels, alert status, and things like that. It was all SECRET (and even TOP SECRET), but what real value does it have now to anybody, 3-4 years later? Well, quite frankly none.

Then you have the secrets that would get people killed if they were released. The full and unadulterated JFK reports is part of this, because at least some of the information in it came from spies, both Soviet in the US and US in the Soviet Union. Now since the fall of that country it is not as likely that if the names came out they would face a firing squad, but are you willing to take that chance just to know who they are? I know I am not, so knowing their names is not that important to me. These secrets also have a set time frame to expire and become public knowledge, some time in the future after all involved are dead and gone.

Not much unlike the identity of "Deep Throat". Bob Woodward never revealed who it was, and said he never would until after he was dead. It was Mark Felt himself who went public with his identity.

So my challenge to you remains as it has to most other conspiracy theorists. Give me an example of this, not of a conspiracy but of something that actually and factually happened, where even the Government came out and admitted what it did. Good luck, I have made this challenge for years and never once had anybody uncover one that was not just another conspiracy theory.

Sure, but I already mentioned it above. Probably you were not familiar with it.

U.S. v. Reynolds, 345US1

Subsequent revelation as told in Washington Post, June 22, 2003 entitled "An Injustice Wrapped in a Pretense."

I trust you are able to access USSC cases by case number?

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Is there a cure for Authoritatians?

http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/why-anti-authoritarians-are-diagnosed-as-mentally-ill/

Do you think what authority tells you regardless of how stupid it is. That is the funny thing about physics. It does not care about people or what they think. So why not test this experimentally?

But if the experiments say the majority has been really dumb for 12 years. Oops!

psik

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Sure, but I already mentioned it above. Probably you were not familiar with it.

U.S. v. Reynolds, 345US1

Subsequent revelation as told in Washington Post, June 22, 2003 entitled "An Injustice Wrapped in a Pretense."

I trust you are able to access USSC cases by case number?

Conspiracy and Cover-up are not the same thing. So sorry, once again a reference fail.

To have a Conspiracy as we have been talking, that means that the Government (or another body) was involved in doing something from the beginning to the end. The FBI-CIA -Secret Service killed Kennedy, Gulf of Tonkin was staged on purpose to widen the war, the US did 9-11.

A Cover-up on the other hand is generally not planned. It is somebody who does something wrong and is simply trying to cover their own backside. Watergate (Nixed did not know until afterwards, but he did try to cover it up after the fact), Benghazi, or in this case an aircraft crash.

So unless you can prove to me that the Government specifically intended to crash the plane as a way to assassinate somebody on board, then we do not have a conspiracy. We simply have a cover-up.

They are not the same thing. Because a cover-up does not have intent or action, it is reaction to something else.

And yes, I am familiar with that case, and have rejected it in the past for the exact same reason. It is not a "conspiracy".

 

[Quag]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Conspiracy and Cover-up are not the same thing. So sorry, once again a reference fail.

To have a Conspiracy as we have been talking, that means that the Government (or another body) was involved in doing something from the beginning to the end. The FBI-CIA -Secret Service killed Kennedy, Gulf of Tonkin was staged on purpose to widen the war, the US did 9-11.

A Cover-up on the other hand is generally not planned. It is somebody who does something wrong and is simply trying to cover their own backside. Watergate (Nixed did not know until afterwards, but he did try to cover it up after the fact), Benghazi, or in this case an aircraft crash.

So unless you can prove to me that the Government specifically intended to crash the plane as a way to assassinate somebody on board, then we do not have a conspiracy. We simply have a cover-up.

They are not the same thing. Because a cover-up does not have intent or action, it is reaction to something else.

And yes, I am familiar with that case, and have rejected it in the past for the exact same reason. It is not a "conspiracy".

HD doesn't think there were any planes on 911 he thinks it was all done with tactical nukes. IE he doesn't think we are talking about a cover-up. Well lets be honest he doesn't think period.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

HD doesn't think there were any planes on 911 he thinks it was all done with tactical nukes. IE he doesn't think we are talking about a cover-up. Well lets be honest he doesn't think period.

That may or may not be. All I know is that I have yet to ever see any evidence of any "Government Conspiracy", ever. The Government simply can't keep secrets.

Those of us old enough to remember such attempts like Iran-Contra remember the field day that the media had over that. Front page reports of Fawn Hall trying to sneak out secret documents in her bra and shredding them at home was a riot at the time. And that is how well our Government is able to keep secrets. Within days of the reports first breaking, I would say that 80% of the facts were known to the general public, and the individuals were talking freely about them.

And nobody really "died" because of this. But they are able to keep a secret that involved the deaths of thousands? Sorry, Occam's Razor slits the wrist of this.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

That may or may not be. All I know is that I have yet to ever see any evidence of any "Government Conspiracy", ever. The Government simply can't keep secrets.

Those of us old enough to remember such attempts like Iran-Contra remember the field day that the media had over that. Front page reports of Fawn Hall trying to sneak out secret documents in her bra and shredding them at home was a riot at the time. And that is how well our Government is able to keep secrets. Within days of the reports first breaking, I would say that 80% of the facts were known to the general public, and the individuals were talking freely about them.

And nobody really "died" because of this. But they are able to keep a secret that involved the deaths of thousands? Sorry, Occam's Razor slits the wrist of this.

You have no idea how many different schemes/plots may have been aided and abetted by criminals in government positions who have suppressed investigations and eliminated evidence, etc., since you can't know for sure what has and hasn't been revealed. Commenting that "the government can't keep secrets" is subjective nonsense.

What we can be sure of is that the three NYC building collapses were controlled demolitions and it is an objective comment to say that the investigation to determine the full range of perpetrators of 911 is not complete.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

To refresh your memory, the 'cellphone calls' we are talking about happened in 2001.

ooooooooooh, and what breakthrough technology in cellphones has occurred since then? :laughat:

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

That may or may not be. All I know is that I have yet to ever see any evidence of any "Government Conspiracy", ever. The Government simply can't keep secrets.

Those of us old enough to remember such attempts like Iran-Contra remember the field day that the media had over that. Front page reports of Fawn Hall trying to sneak out secret documents in her bra and shredding them at home was a riot at the time. And that is how well our Government is able to keep secrets. Within days of the reports first breaking, I would say that 80% of the facts were known to the general public, and the individuals were talking freely about them.

And nobody really "died" because of this. But they are able to keep a secret that involved the deaths of thousands? Sorry, Occam's Razor slits the wrist of this.

and let's not forget Sandy Berger's pants-full-o-documents.

The govt has never been able to keep any secret. there has always been at least one person who talked. No way something as big as 9/11 could have been kept a secret.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You have no idea how many different schemes/plots may have been aided and abetted by criminals in government positions who have suppressed investigations and eliminated evidence, etc., since you can't know for sure what has and hasn't been revealed. Commenting that "the government can't keep secrets" is subjective nonsense.

What we can be sure of is that the three NYC building collapses were controlled demolitions and it is an objective comment to say that the investigation to determine the full range of perpetrators of 911 is not complete.

1. So how many different schemes/plots have been aided... by criminals in the govt.? If you don't know , then your conclusion of ""the government can't keep secrets" is subjective nonsense. " is also nonsense.

2. Don't know who the "we" is in your second point. Not everyone agrees with your CD statement. If you mean "we" as those who have bought into the CD theory, then ok.

I have got to ask. If some evidence that was beyond question was shown/found that proves CD did not happen, would you change your mind? You don't need to explain that this won't happen. I am mearly curious if your open to change or not.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Conspiracy and Cover-up are not the same thing. So sorry, once again a reference fail.

To have a Conspiracy as we have been talking, that means that the Government (or another body) was involved in doing something from the beginning to the end. The FBI-CIA -Secret Service killed Kennedy, Gulf of Tonkin was staged on purpose to widen the war, the US did 9-11.

A Cover-up on the other hand is generally not planned. It is somebody who does something wrong and is simply trying to cover their own backside. Watergate (Nixed did not know until afterwards, but he did try to cover it up after the fact), Benghazi, or in this case an aircraft crash.

So unless you can prove to me that the Government specifically intended to crash the plane as a way to assassinate somebody on board, then we do not have a conspiracy. We simply have a cover-up.

They are not the same thing. Because a cover-up does not have intent or action, it is reaction to something else.

And yes, I am familiar with that case, and have rejected it in the past for the exact same reason. It is not a "conspiracy".

Conspiracy and coverup CAN be the same thing.

That is, humans can conspire to coverup certain facts, for example negligence in maintenance on a B-29.

Or, Nixon and his plumbers could conspire to keep their criminal acts secret. Or, folks in the Pentagon could conspire to purposely withold and distort facts, as Congress found back in whatever year it was, about 1973.

Try again Oozle, or just admit that sometimes you are human, and in error.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

1. So how many different schemes/plots have been aided... by criminals in the govt.? If you don't know , then your conclusion of ""the government can't keep secrets" is subjective nonsense. " is also nonsense.

2. Don't know who the "we" is in your second point. Not everyone agrees with your CD statement. If you mean "we" as those who have bought into the CD theory, then ok.

I have got to ask. If some evidence that was beyond question was shown/found that proves CD did not happen, would you change your mind? You don't need to explain that this won't happen. I am mearly curious if your open to change or not.

In answer to your points

1. It is a subjective and nonsensical statement to say we know what the biggest star in the universe is, because we don't even know how many there are, or where they are all located. However, it is an objective statement to say we don't know. One cannot make the statement that "the government cannot keep a secret" in an objective fashion because they are unable to quantify the issue of how many secrets there were/are to begin with. It is objective to say we can't know without having quantified just how many secrets there were/are.

2. You are just a silly goose here. Controlled demolition as the actual cause of the three NYC building collapses has been proven. You simply refuse to accept it and want to act like your refusal somehow has merit.

Of course, if you could show me in an objective fashion that those buildings could have come down in a natural progressive collapse I would certainly entertain it. However, I have looked at all of the purported natural collapse theories/hypotheses proferred thus far, and they all suffer from their lack of support from observation. Good luck trying to find evidence that the collapses were due to anything other than controlled demolition.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Is there a cure for Authoritatians?

http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/why-anti-authoritarians-are-diagnosed-as-mentally-ill/

Do you think what authority tells you regardless of how stupid it is. That is the funny thing about physics. It does not care about people or what they think. So why not test this experimentally?

But if the experiments say the majority has been really dumb for 12 years. Oops!

psik

Or, is there a cure for the morbidly gullible, the morbidly UNcurious?

 

[sharon]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

In answer to your points

1. It is a subjective and nonsensical statement to say we know how many stars there are in the universe. However, it is an objective statement to say we don't know. One cannot make the statement that "the government cannot keep a secret" in an objective fashion based on their inability to quantify the issue of how many secrets there are to begin with. It is objective to say we can't know without having quantified just how many secrets there were/are.

2. You are just a silly goose here. Controlled demolition has been proven. You simply refuse to accept it and want to act like your refusal somehow has merit.

Of course, if you could show me in an objective fashion that those buildings could have come down in a natural progressive collapse I would certainly entertain it. However, I have looked at all of the purported natural collapse theories/hypotheses and they all suffer from their lack of support from observation.

You don't need controlled demolition since you have gravity.

It also helps to understand HOW the buildings were construction and other works of the architect... and how the NJ Ports Authority altered his specifications.

I knew the buildings would collapse.. and was praying.. Get out, get out.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

You don't need controlled demolition since you have gravity.

It also helps to understand HOW the buildings were construction and other works of the architect... and how the NJ Ports Authority altered his specifications.

I knew the buildings would collapse.. and was praying.. Get out, get out.

Just curious how you knew the buildings would collapse? Considering that prior to that date NO building in that class had ever collapsed from fire.

Did you know that WTC 7 was going to collapse too?

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

In answer to your points

1. It is a subjective and nonsensical statement to say we know what the biggest star in the universe is, because we don't even know how many there are, or where they are all located. However, it is an objective statement to say we don't know. One cannot make the statement that "the government cannot keep a secret" in an objective fashion because they are unable to quantify the issue of how many secrets there were/are to begin with. It is objective to say we can't know without having quantified just how many secrets there were/are.

2. You are just a silly goose here. Controlled demolition as the actual cause of the three NYC building collapses has been proven. You simply refuse to accept it and want to act like your refusal somehow has merit.

Of course, if you could show me in an objective fashion that those buildings could have come down in a natural progressive collapse I would certainly entertain it. However, I have looked at all of the purported natural collapse theories/hypotheses proferred thus far, and they all suffer from their lack of support from observation. Good luck trying to find evidence that the collapses were due to anything other than controlled demolition.

So CD is now the accepted answer by the majority?
I know you will come back with it is for those that have looked into it.

I am not looking for anything Tony, except to see if your explanation becomes the standard. Until then I remain skeptical.

So according to you the CD is proven. Then explain why this is not published and a shared view threw the engineer and scientific community?

With such a major find, you would think it would be published, in the news., etc. What I see is its is on CT sites. So guess you will say its a conspiracy that we word is not getting out.

No silly goose on my part. Your not convincing enough. Besides the CT conventions, how many proffession conventions have you presented your findings at?. I am not trying to be direspectful. I see it as an image issue. If your theory is only presented at CT conventions, its can lead to lack of creditablilty.

To say its a fact, means little. There are people who claim to have esp, They can't prove it, but they claim its fact.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Conspiracy and coverup CAN be the same thing.

No, because there are major differences.

Now listen close, and try to follow along.

For "Conspiracy", you have to have intent and premeditation before the incident, and the conspiracy is to create the incident in the first place.

For "Cover-up", you have an incident, and a person or group of people is then trying to conceal or mitigate the effects of what happened.

Now by definition, all conspiracies have a cover-up, but most cover-ups do not have a conspiracy.

As example, Senator Ted Kennedy and his "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" incident. Do I think there was a conspiracy? No, because that would mean that he intended to kill his passenger, and I see no evidence of that at all. However, there was a cover-up in order to mitigate the damage to his political career.

In Benghazi, do I think there was a conspiracy? No, because that would mean that the Administration knew an attack was going to happen and deliberately ignored it for political reasons, or orchestrated it themselves. However, there has been a cover-up to try and spin the cause to something else then people ignoring threats.

Most cover-ups are just that, cover-ups. Somebody does something wrong, or blows a call, or ignores a threat, and is then trying to deny, eliminate, or lessen the effects of that decision. But there is no conspiracy, because it is just an example of "stuff happens", and people trying to cover their butts.

What is lacking 99% of the time in any conspiracy theory is actual proof of the intention, planning and execution of events. They generally only concentrate on the event itself and not all the steps that would have to come before it. And none ever address the secrecy part, other then to ominously say "the government is good at keeping secrets".

Which to me is the ultimate in stupidity, because we have all seen how poorly they keep secrets.

 

[mike2810]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

Just curious how you knew the buildings would collapse? Considering that prior to that date NO building in that class had ever collapsed from fire.

Did you know that WTC 7 was going to collapse too?

and what other buildings in that class was hit by a airliner? Was the fire intensity and duration the same? Was the loss of fire protection on the structure the same? etc. etc.

The no bulding of the same class has failed to to fire has been debated before. It proves very little.

There are those who are going to believe in CD. There are those who will not. There are those who are skeptical of the explanation of CD because the scientific and proffessional world has not yet recongnized it as the explantion for the collapse. Yes, some have. Many have not. Many many have not even looked into it. So the burden is on the CD side to get the scientific and proffessional community behind the explanation.

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: Is there any way to cure a truther?

So CD is now the accepted answer by the majority?
I know you will come back with it is for those that have looked into it.

I am not looking for anything Tony, except to see if your explanation becomes the standard. Until then I remain skeptical.

So according to you the CD is proven. Then explain why this is not published and a shared view threw the engineer and scientific community?

With such a major find, you would think it would be published, in the news., etc. What I see is its is on CT sites. So guess you will say its a conspiracy that we word is not getting out.

No silly goose on my part. Your not convincing enough. Besides the CT conventions, how many proffession conventions have you presented your findings at?. I am not trying to be direspectful. I see it as an image issue. If your theory is only presented at CT conventions, its can lead to lack of creditablilty.

To say its a fact, means little. There are people who claim to have esp, They can't prove it, but they claim its fact.

So you are looking for a majority? If 51 guys say it is CD, and 49 say it is not, which way do you go? What about 25/75?