Is the Israeli response "disproportionate"?

Regarding the Israeli actions aganst Hezboulah in Lebanon...

Is the Israeli response 'disproprotionate' to what Hezboula has done?


What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities -- every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians -- and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?

When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cinders, and turned the Japanese home islands into rubble and ruin.

Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right -- legal and moral -- to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.

And that's what it will take for Israel to deal with Hezboulah.

(Excerptions from Chas. Krauthammer, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html)

Um, Hezbollah does not equal Lebanese civilians.

Powell Doctrine
use overwhelming force

niftydrifty said:

Um, Hezbollah does not equal Lebanese civilians.

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Hezboulah hides among Lebanese civilians, knowing that they will die.
Whose fault is it said civilians are killed when the Israelis attack Hezboulah?

Ummmmm, it's time Israel gets it's hands a little dirtier to spare more civilians lives. I'm getting a little sick of seeing how many civilians and children have died in this conflict. Complete bullshit and it shouldn't happen in 2006. Israel's gov't with its head completely up it's own *** v. Hezboulah and its crazy idiot leader with their heads completely up their own asses. I say **** the whole area for causing such a ****ing stupid self righteous mess. **** Israel, Hezboulah, Palestine, and the Terrorists. I'm sick of the fact that our government helps fund that endless waste of a conflict.

Goobieman said:

Hezboulah hides among Lebanese civilians, knowing that they will die.
Whose fault is it said civilians are killed when the Israelis attack Hezboulah?

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That's why it's important that countries take some responsibility and not allow factions like Hezbollah to grow in their midst. Since the government of Lebanon can no longer control Hezbollah there is no other option except for Israel to end this Hezbollah problem themselves. As long as Hezbollah still has a certain degree of power and capability there is no point in Israel stopping what they are doing. Countries can not allow islamic extremists or any extremists for that matter to arm themselves and run amuck causing chaos without eventual consequence. That is why I am completely dumbfounded by those that would blame Israel or have Israel turn their backs on this problem without solving it. They don't seem to realize the problem will only grow and could one day end up on their own doorstep.

Sir_Alec said:

Ummmmm, it's time Israel gets it's hands a little dirtier to spare more civilians lives. I'm getting a little sick of seeing how many civilians and children have died in this conflict. Complete bullshit and it shouldn't happen in 2006. Israel's gov't with its head completely up it's own *** v. Hezboulah and its crazy idiot leader with their heads completely up their own asses. I say **** the whole area for causing such a ****ing stupid self righteous mess. **** Israel, Hezboulah, Palestine, and the Terrorists. I'm sick of the fact that our government helps fund that endless waste of a conflict.

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How about all the terrorists killing thousands of children with suicide attacks in Iraq.........Does that bother you at all?:roll:

Navy Pride said:

How about all the terrorists killing thousands of children with suicide attacks in Iraq.........Does that bother you at all?:roll:

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Did I mention anything about Iraq? I'm getting really sick of you bringing this stuff up all the time. No, I'm not saying we should pull out of Iraq! Are you stupid? Can you read? Is there one mention of Iraq in my previous post?

Sir_Alec said:

Ummmmm, it's time Israel gets it's hands a little dirtier to spare more civilians lives. I'm getting a little sick of seeing how many civilians and children have died in this conflict. Complete bullshit and it shouldn't happen in 2006

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What, exactly, would you suggest they do that they arent already doing?

talloulou said:

That's why it's important that countries take some responsibility and not allow factions like Hezbollah to grow in their midst.

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I agree completely. There's no excuse for the Lebanese government here -- if they can't do it themselves, then they know who they can ask for help.

IMHO, the lack of effective action from the Lebanese government denotes complicity.

Goobieman said:

What, exactly, would you suggest they do that they arent already doing?

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Bombing the **** out of civilians is really not appearing to be saving lives. But, it's all part of the Israeli strategy to soften up the terrorists defenses by killing the civilans around them. Why not just send troops in, then suffer the casualties of war like a righteous nation would if they really cared about the innocent civilians.

Sir_Alec said:

Bombing the **** out of civilians is really not appearing to be saving lives. But, it's all part of the Israeli strategy to soften up the terrorists defenses by killing the civilans around them.

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The Israelis are attacking Hezbo8ulah targets that Hezboulah has surrounded with civilians. So, who is to blame for the civilian deaths?

Why not just send troops in, then suffer the casualties of war like a righteous nation would if they really cared about the innocent civilians.

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Because this wont do anything to curb civilian casualties, given that HB will continue to hide behind them.

Why arent you criticising HB for hiding behind civilians?
Why arent you placing the blame where is really belongs?

Goobieman said:

The Israelis are attacking Hezbo8ulah targets that Hezboulah has surrounded with civilians. So, who is to blame for the civilian deaths?

Because this wont do anything to curb civilian casualties, given that HB will continue to hide behind them.

Why arent you criticising HB for hiding behind civilians?
Why arent you placing the blame where is really belongs?

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OK, yes it is Hezboulah hiding behind the civilians, but two thing need to be done. The civilians need to take some charge in getting rid of these people. Since it's kinda hard to ask these crazy terrorists to lie down their arms then the Israelis do have to use some force, but Israel could do a lot to piss off these terrorists a little less, giving no reason to the attacks from terrorists. After it is decided who and what to take care of Israel can do it. This is the opposite to blindly bombing the **** our of civilians.

Goobieman said:

Regarding the Israeli actions aganst Hezboulah in Lebanon...

Is the Israeli response 'disproprotionate' to what Hezboula has done?


What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities -- every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians -- and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?

When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cinders, and turned the Japanese home islands into rubble and ruin.

Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right -- legal and moral -- to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.

And that's what it will take for Israel to deal with Hezboulah.

(Excerptions from Chas. Krauthammer, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html)

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Is it disproportionate force when more that one policeman comes to arrest a single person?

Sir_Alec said:

OK, yes it is Hezboulah hiding behind the civilians,

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Ok -- just so we're clear:
The civilians are in the danger they are in because HB uses them as shields.

The civilians need to take some charge in getting rid of these people.

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Sure. No question. But then, the questions begs: do they NOT get rid of these people due to a lack of ability or a lack of motivation. I'll let you decide.

Israel could do a lot to piss off these terrorists a little less, giving no reason to the attacks from terrorists.

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What, exactly did Israel do to ignite this particular conflagaration?
Remember that Israel, by its mere existence, pisses off the terrorists enough to get the terrorists to attack them.

This is the opposite to blindly bombing the **** our of civilians.

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Israel is hitting military targets.
How is Israel "blindly bombing the shi'ite out of civilians?

Goobieman said:

Israel is hitting military targets.
How is Israel "blindly bombing the shi'ite out of civilians?

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When bombing these so-called military targets guess whos in and around them.

Sir_Alec said:

When bombing these so-called military targets guess whos in and around them.

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And is that Israel's fault, or HB?
I believe you already agreed that HB is responsible for putting these people in danger.

Do you expect Israel to NOT take out a HB position because there are civilians around it?
Why?

Like all terrorist organizations, Hizbollah and Hamas kill civilians while hiding amongst civilians. Like all terrorist organizations, they locate their command and control structures in the midst of civilian neighborhoods. Like all terrorist organizations, they wear no distinctive uniform that would identify them among the masses. Like all terrorist organizations, they use civilians as both targets and shields. In plain language Hizbollah and Hamas are both terrorist organizations, and conduct their terrorist jihad using terrorist doctrine and terrorist tactics.

The UN, Western powers, and 'moderate' Arab governments convened a meeting in Rome this past week to seek ways to impliment a cease fire. All agreed that a cease fire would be beneficial. However, the core problem of this cease fire initiative was that no one could conceive of a way to disarm Hizbollah other than to engage it militarily. Exactly what Israel is currently doing.

The simple fact of the matter is that world powers (read the West) and global organizations (read the UN) would rather put the bite on a legitimate government defending its citizens than deal with a shadowy terrorist organization killing those civilians. Powers and Organizations have no leverage with terrorists, so like water these bodies take the path of least resistance and commence to flood the soverign defending nation with unreasonable demands. This is easy to impliment and convenient in the short term, but it is in reality a short sighted and disingenuous recipe for peace.

I applaud the stand taken by president Bush in regards to Hizbollah and Hamas terrorism. He recognizes, as does Israel, that there can be no meaningful negotiations with terrorists, nor can there be any viable and lasting cease fire unless and until the terrorists are either permanently disarmed or overwhelmingly degraded.

The doctrine of modern conventional warfare demands destroying enemy command and control centers, degrading lines of enemy resupply, and engaging the enemy with overwhelming ferocity and firepower. I am not aware of any violent military engagement in which one combatant willingly handicapped their conventional superiority over an enemy force. You either use what you have to obtain total victory, or you surrender your superiority and submit to a weaker enemy. Like every other nation, Israel will use its military superiority and do what it must to secure its defensive objectives.

I don't know the exact details of what Goobieman is refering to as "the Israeli response", so I am not prepared to state either way if it is "disproportionate" or not.

However, I would lean towards saying that it IS "disproportionate". But not disproportionate enough yet. Israel needs to increase it's military activities against HB if at all possible.

Shayah said:

I am not aware of any violent military engagement in which one combatant willingly handicapped their conventional superiority over an enemy force. You either use what you have to obtain total victory, or you surrender your superiority and submit to a weaker enemy.

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This is not exactly true.

The US in Iraq and Israel in Lebanon have both gone out of their way to not kill civilians, accepting increased friendly casuatlies in the procees - because innocent life is worth it to us.

Note that the US and Israelis both continue to kick the shi'ite out of the terrorists, even while doing so.

Goobieman said:

This is not exactly true.

The US in Iraq and Israel in Lebanon have both gone out of their way to not kill civilians, accepting increased friendly casuatlies in the procees - because innocent life is worth it to us.

Note that the US and Israelis both continue to kick the shi'ite out of the terrorists, even while doing so.

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You are right that something is being done, but no, not everything is being done in favor of protecting civilians. This is my only disagreement with anything you have mentioned. Iraq is a completely different story because the terrorists were not the key objective when going in. I'm not tactical genius I just don't approve of this conflict in general. Since there is no stopping it now I see no reason for me to continue expressing my opinion. Now that it is running its course all we can do is watch and wait. Hopefully it ends soon.

Goobieman said:

This is not exactly true.

The US in Iraq and Israel in Lebanon have both gone out of their way to not kill civilians, accepting increased friendly casuatlies in the procees - because innocent life is worth it to us.

Note that the US and Israelis both continue to kick the shi'ite out of the terrorists, even while doing so.

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According to an Israeli general, the IDF is currently only using about 15% of the force it could use in the Lebanon conflict. Clearly, it is not the intent of Israel to destroy Lebanon or occupy the country.

So....... let me rephrase my sentiment. Israel has to date - and intends - to use the least amount of its superior force necessary to obtain its defensive objectives.

Sir_Alec said:

You are right that something is being done, but no, not everything is being done in favor of protecting civilians.

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Well then -- what ELSE do you suggest they do?

Shayah said:

So....... let me rephrase my sentiment. Israel has to date - and intends - to use the least amount of its superior force necessary to obtain its defensive objectives.

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Ok - THAT I agree with. They are certainly doing that (in addition to taking extra casualties to avoid killing civilians).

Why don't we just admit that the Lebanese aren't civilians, as they have not displayed the minimum civility required for the label. This civility minimum would be . . .

When a fifth of your country starts warring on another country, the DUTY falls on you to WIN A CIVIL WAR, RIGHT NOW.

Everyone knows we would Put Arizona Down if they independantly began Firing on Mexico, so why do we give one nugget of slack to the Lebanese when we wouldn't give it to Arizona ? ? ?

BTW, love the baby carriage pic