Is The HOA Liable?

[Pinkie]

Neighborhood Watch doesn't (shouldn't) mean vigilanteism. In the Zimmerman situation, he was on his way to the store when he called the police. I think the idea that the HOA bears any responsibility for this is ridiculous. I see you say "the insurance company thinks they owe some money." It's my understanding they have filed paperwork that asks a court to determine same. They don't think they owe a dime and think any suit including them would be frivilous. ??

My neighborhood has a neighborhood watch program. It is ridiculous to think that homeowners are liable for the illegal actions of a resident.

The insurance company has filed for what's called a declaratory judgment -- they want to avoid having to bear the costs of defending any lawsuit against the HOA, so they want the court to say now they cannot ever be made to pay.

I agree with you and your neighbor.

 

[Johnlaw]

The insurance company has filed for what's called a declaratory judgment -- they want to avoid having to bear the costs of defending any lawsuit against the HOA, so they want the court to say now they cannot ever be made to pay.

I agree with you and your neighbor.

HOAs and condominium associations always seem to be involved in some form of litigation. The smart association will carry at least a million dollar liability policy. The liability of the association will depend on the duty of care the association had to the homeowners and whether said HOA was negligent. There will be many other issues of course, such as a reviewing the restrictions and covenants, by-laws, and statutory and case law regarding HOA liability. For instance, if members of the HOA knew there was a lunatic running around the neighborhood with a gun and acting like a security guard of some sort, the HOA may indeed face some liability.

However, even if a judgment is entered against the HOA, their is the question of enforcement and requiring special assessments against the individual homeowners. IF all else fails bankruptcy of the HOA is the final option.

 

[Pinkie]

HOAs and condominium associations always seem to be involved in some form of litigation. The smart association will carry at least a million dollar liability policy. The liability of the association will depend on the duty of care the association had to the homeowners and whether said HOA was negligent. There will be many other issues of course, such as a reviewing the restrictions and covenants, by-laws, and statutory and case law regarding HOA liability. For instance, if members of the HOA knew there was a lunatic running around the neighborhood with a gun and acting like a security guard of some sort, the HOA may indeed face some liability.

However, even if a judgment is entered against the HOA, their is the question of enforcement and requiring special assessments against the individual homeowners. IF all else fails bankruptcy of the HOA is the final option.

True, true, true. My question is, could any theory of law support a duty of care by Zimmerman's HOA to Martin or his estate?

Given what little I know now, I say "no". HOAs are not under any duty to prevent anyone dwelling within their bounds from commiting a violent act on a stranger to the association.

 

[Pinkie]

Look at it this way.. How many families can afford a pool, an outdoor picnic area, tennis courts and a well equipped gym?

Exactly why I live here, too.

If you share the cost of the amenities..... you also share the liabilities..

Yup, and I know a portion of my fees are spent to buy a liability insurance policy for the association's common grounds and amenities. I am good with that.

And, George was a liability to these homeowners.

Here's where we disagree. I can see where it could be claimed that Zimmerman intended his behavior to benefit the association as a whole, so it is not the same as if he had shot his wife. But what if one of my neighbors shoots a kid he mistakenly thinks is burglaring his home? Am I liable for his mistake, too?

How can I have a duty to indemnify all strangers on Planet Earth for any bad acts of my neighbors if I don't in any way cooperate with them, just because I live in an HOA?

 

[mike2810]

You can have a NW program without an HOA. I particpated in one in the past. The lawyer for TM family is looking for dollars.
Anyone can file against anybody. Doesn't mean they will win.

It is a bad case, imo. If I was on the jury, the HOA and Travlers Ins. would owe nothing.

 

[Johnlaw]

First, no individual homeowner is liable for the action of Zimmerman.

Second, I don't know enough about the Zimmerman case or the respective HOA to really form an opinion, but the case against it is most likely very weak. You can't hold an association liable for the acts of a lone individual. The one way, I believe the association can be liable, would be if the President or Board of Directors somehow sanctioned or approved Zimmerman to patrol the neighborhood and, even if they did, did the Board know he was danger and carrying a gun.

 

[Pinkie]

You can have a NW program without an HOA. I particpated in one in the past. The lawyer for TM family is looking for dollars.
Anyone can file against anybody. Doesn't mean they will win.

It is a bad case, imo. If I was on the jury, the HOA and Travlers Ins. would owe nothing.

Well, if there were no HOA, Martin's mother would be reduced to naming every homeowner who "benefited" from Zimmerman's bad acts as a defendant. And there would not be a liability insurance policy to tap for the judgment, on the remote chance that Martin's mother wins. There's not much sense in suing for money damages if there's no chance of ever getting paid now, is there?

Which is kinda my way of saying why should I have a legal duty that the rest of my neighborhood, which has no HOA, does not have?

 

[sharon]

First, no individual homeowner is liable for the action of Zimmerman.

Second, I don't know enough about the Zimmerman case or the respective HOA to really form an opinion, but the case against it is most likely very weak. You can't hold an association liable for the acts of a lone individual. The one way, I believe the association can be liable, would be if the President or Board of Directors somehow sanctioned or approved Zimmerman to patrol the neighborhood and, even if they did, did the Board know he was danger and carrying a gun.

John , you can easily look up Condo Law or HOA Law in Florida.

Both carry liability insurance. George as NW Watch Captain or Coordinator was sanctioned by the HOA and represented them. Their liability is clear... and it is a sad thing that they did not vet him or insist that he observe NW protocols.

Travelers Ins has appealed in Federal Court for relief from obligation.... to sever their liability because of what GZ did. Depending on the size of the complex and other factors, most of these insurance policies have a cap on what they will pay.. It might be $75,000.. If a civil suit for wrongful death is found in excess of the cap, the homeowners are assessed the outstanding balance.

Think of it as a homeowners ins policy... like you might carry on your home... It is different in that all the homeowners pay their "dues" to the HOA.. They have shared amenities and shared liability.

 

[Pinkie]

John , you can easily look up Condo Law or HOA Law in Florida.

Both carry liability insurance. George as NW Watch Captain or Coordinator was sanctioned by the HOA and represented them. Their liability is clear... and it is a sad thing that they did not vet him or insist that he observe NW protocols.

Travelers Ins has appealed in Federal Court for relief from obligation.... to sever their liability because of what GZ did. Depending on the size of the complex and other factors, most of these insurance policies have a cap on what they will pay.. It might be $75,000.. If a civil suit for wrongful death is found in excess of the cap, the homeowners are assessed the outstanding balance.

Think of it as a homeowners ins policy... like you might carry on your home... It is different in that all the homeowners pay their "dues" to the HOA.. They have shared amenities and shared liability.

This is true, Sharon, but that liability insurance covers a risk that my HOA might breach a duty owed. So, if they had a pool here (we don't, though we'd discussed it) and we allowed a fence surrounding it to fall down and some stranger's child wandered in and drowned, yes we'd all be liable and our insurance would pay.

But Zimmerman's act was intentional, it was not committed by an HOA official, it was not facilitated in any way by HOA funds. I just don't see that creating any duty on the HOA's part to Martin's mother.

No duty, no damages.

 

[Pinkie]

First, no individual homeowner is liable for the action of Zimmerman.

Second, I don't know enough about the Zimmerman case or the respective HOA to really form an opinion, but the case against it is most likely very weak. You can't hold an association liable for the acts of a lone individual. The one way, I believe the association can be liable, would be if the President or Board of Directors somehow sanctioned or approved Zimmerman to patrol the neighborhood and, even if they did, did the Board know he was danger and carrying a gun.

O, I concede facts could exist that would change my opinion.

We have discussed hiring a security guard to patrol the grounds. If we hire someone with a felony conviction for manslaughter and buy him a gun and he kills a visitor, wrongfully, I'd imagine we'd be liable.

 

[Maenad]

Of course if the HOA loses a lawsuit to Martin's mother, it will affect the homeowners. In order for an HOA to even exist, there has to a document setting out the homeowners' mutual agreement to live under certain rules, pay money for certain mutual benefits, etc. Like a partnership, the economic costs will flow through the HOA to each homeowner, and if they can't pay, they'll lose their home.

It's possible that this HOA will be able to shift the burden to its insurance company, but even if they do, they'll probably never get another policy. Depending on a variety of factors, this could render the homes inside that HOA unsellable -- and an unsellable home is worth less (or worthless).

As for living in an HOA, well, there are good and bad things about it -- but I am shocked that I could lose my home because my neighbor shoots someone, justified or not. Even if it's a remote possibility, it's certainly not a risk I ever agreed to accept.

There was a time in Tennessee that you could lose your home if your contractor went bankrupt. You had to have title insurance. And many did before that law was changed. Anytime you are part of a voting 'organization' you bear some liability, moreso if you are an officer or a board member. I'm not really clear if the neighborhood watch was an activity of the HOA, whether the homeowners were required to join the HOA, etc. But I did read that the neighborhood watch rule is that you are unarmed when you are on duty, and that is a police requirement not generaly and HOA requirement as many neighborhoods do the watch thing but not the HOA thing.

Where live now, there should be no problem with the title, but I took title insurance anyway, because you never know what might come up to bite you in the butt.

 

[sharon]

This is true, Sharon, but that liability insurance covers a risk that my HOA might breach a duty owed. So, if they had a pool here (we don't, though we'd discussed it) and we allowed a fence surrounding it to fall down and some stranger's child wandered in and drowned, yes we'd all be liable and our insurance would pay.

But Zimmerman's act was intentional, it was not committed by an HOA official, it was not facilitated in any way by HOA funds. I just don't see that creating any duty on the HOA's part to Martin's mother.

No duty, no damages.

George represented the HOA as NW.. with their approval..

They didn't send out a newsletter saying.. "This George Zimmerman is NOT our NW captain".. Quite the opposite.The encouraged everyone to communicate with GZ.. and call him about anything suspicious AFTER they called the police.

They hosted the meeting where the Seminole Sherrif's office did the training and prsentation on NW protocols..

I will see if I can find a Fl HOA Law website that can explain it better than I.

 

[sharon]

O, I concede facts could exist that would change my opinion.

We have discussed hiring a security guard to patrol the grounds. If we hire someone with a felony conviction for manslaughter and buy him a gun and he kills a visitor, wrongfully, I'd imagine we'd be liable.

If you hire a security guard.. he has to be certified, trained and BONDED.

 

[jimbo]

George represented the HOA as NW.. with their approval..

They didn't send out a newsletter saying.. "This George Zimmerman is NOT our NW captain".. Quite the opposite.The encouraged everyone to communicate with GZ.. and call him about anything suspicious AFTER they called the police.

They hosted the meeting where the Seminole Sherrif's office did the training and prsentation on NW protocols..

I will see if I can find a Fl HOA Law website that can explain it better than I.

First, it is far from certain that Zimmerman did anything wrong. That needs to be shown before any liability is determined. Second, even if the courts decide a crime was committed, then it needs to be shown that the NW or HOA has any liability. Except in the court of Sharon, none of that has happened. I think the trial is scheduled sometime in early November, just in time for the elections.

Civil proof is generally less than crime proof, but some proof must be shown nevertheless.

 

[sharon]

First, it is far from certain that Zimmerman did anything wrong. That needs to be shown before any liability is determined. Second, even if the courts decide a crime was committed, then it needs to be shown that the NW or HOA has any liability. Except in the court of Sharon, none of that has happened. I think the trial is scheduled sometime in early November, just in time for the elections.

Civil proof is generally less than crime proof, but some proof must be shown nevertheless.

Even if George is acquitted, the HOA is liable.

George was a renter anyway..

I doubt this will go to trial before 2013..

Watch out: What

Here are a few CAI tips on starting a neighborhood watch program:
•Contact the local police department for startup support, guidance and training
•Consult an attorney who's an expert in community association law
•Create a process to recruit only responsible volunteers who will follow procedures
•Use websites, email and other means to keep residents and volunteers informed
•Frequently reinforce the procedures, including do-not-engage rules for volunteer neighborhood watchers

These tips can help in other situations, too, since they emphasize what's important: planning, training, legal advice, procedures and monitoring.

 

[sharon]

Here's more.

A Neighborhood Watch and An HOA’s Liability Issues | Perkins & Anctil, P.C.


A Neighborhood Watch and An HOA

 

[Excon]

George represented the HOA as NW.. with their approval..

And yet he was on his way to the store when he spotted Trayvon acting suspiciously.
A concerned citizen acting on their own.
Go figure, huh?

Even if George is acquitted, the HOA is liable.

Nope!
It means that the HOA could turn around and sue Trayvon's parents for their underage son causing any damage to property values.

Trayvon's family should be ashamed for doing this.

 

[jimbo]

Even if George is acquitted, the HOA is liable.

George was a renter anyway..

I doubt this will go to trial before 2013..

Watch out: What

Here are a few CAI tips on starting a neighborhood watch program:
•Contact the local police department for startup support, guidance and training
•Consult an attorney who's an expert in community association law
•Create a process to recruit only responsible volunteers who will follow procedures
•Use websites, email and other means to keep residents and volunteers informed
•Frequently reinforce the procedures, including do-not-engage rules for volunteer neighborhood watchers

These tips can help in other situations, too, since they emphasize what's important: planning, training, legal advice, procedures and monitoring.

Why would the HOA be liable if there was no infraction found?

It makes a difference whether he owned a home or rented? Why?

Trial dates are always subject to change. It does not matter. I don't think it will go to trial, at least before the elections. The intended damage has already been done.

I appreciate the info about starting a NW. Not intending to do so in the foreseeable future. However, I will keep your advice in mind.

 

[sharon]

And yet he was on his way to the store when he spotted Trayvon acting suspiciously.
A concerned citizen acting on their own.
Go figure, huh?


Nope!
It means that the HOA could turn around and sue Trayvon's parents for their underage son causing any damage to property values.

Trayvon's family should be ashamed for doing this.

How is it that you aren't in the pen?

George claims he was NW coordinator/captain for the Retreat.. with the acknowledgement in writing of the approval of the HOA.

The HOA could actully sue GZ, but GZ has never had anything and never will.

 

[Excon]

How is it that you aren't in the pen?

Uncalled for.
How is it that you are not in the pen?
Once you answer it for yourself, I suspect the same can be applied to me.

But your comment was still uncalled for, and even low-brow.

George claims he was NW coordinator/captain for the Retreat.. with the acknowledgement in writing of the approval of the HOA.

The HOA could actully sue GZ, but GZ has never had anything and never will.

Doesn't matter.
He was on his way to the store as a civilian.

 

[Pinkie]

Even if George is acquitted, the HOA is liable.

George was a renter anyway..

I doubt this will go to trial before 2013..

Watch out: What

Here are a few CAI tips on starting a neighborhood watch program:
•Contact the local police department for startup support, guidance and training
•Consult an attorney who's an expert in community association law
•Create a process to recruit only responsible volunteers who will follow procedures
•Use websites, email and other means to keep residents and volunteers informed
•Frequently reinforce the procedures, including do-not-engage rules for volunteer neighborhood watchers

These tips can help in other situations, too, since they emphasize what's important: planning, training, legal advice, procedures and monitoring.

We have had an ad hoc Safety Committee here (separate and in addition to the Neighborhood Watch) in my HOA for some time. I cannot tell you how nervous it makes me, this suggestion that they may not have hit all the bells and whistles to avoid creating liability for me.

 

[sharon]

Why would the HOA be liable if there was no infraction found?

It makes a difference whether he owned a home or rented? Why?

Trial dates are always subject to change. It does not matter. I don't think it will go to trial, at least before the elections. The intended damage has already been done.

I appreciate the info about starting a NW. Not intending to do so in the foreseeable future. However, I will keep your advice in mind.

George wasn't an owner.. His landlord was the owner.. so the landlord has to pay the HOA dues.. or maybe he tacks that on to George's rent every month.. But GZ is not the owner of record.

Wrongful death is a civil suit that has a lower standard of proof.. They are common actually.

Two of my boys participate in NW in two different states. Its casual. When they heard the GZ story.. all they said was what an effing idiot.

If you do start a NW, just consult an attorney and make sure the HOA has liability ins... and don't let any rambo types participate.

 

[Pinkie]

Excon wrote in part:

It means that the HOA could turn around and sue Trayvon's parents for their underage son causing any damage to property values.

Trayvon's family should be ashamed for doing this.

I can't imagine on what theory the HOA could sue Martin's estate. What duty did he owe? What damage did he cause them?

As for whether Martin's mother should be ashamed of suing, no, even if the suit is frivolous I don't blame her. I blame the lawyer who no doubt intruded on her grief and strongarmed her into this.

 

[Excon]

George wasn't an owner.. His landlord was the owner.. so the landlord has to pay the HOA dues.. or maybe he tacks that on to George's rent every month.. But GZ is not the owner of record.

Wrongful death is a civil suit that has a lower standard of proof.. They are common actually.

Two of my boys participate in NW in two different states. Its casual. When they heard the GZ story.. all they said was what an effing idiot.

If you do start a NW, just consult an attorney and make sure the HOA has liability ins... and don't let any rambo types participate.

No one really cares what your boys thought.
And based on the views you have presented here, one has to wonder if their thoughts are as convoluted as your are?

 

[Pinkie]

George wasn't an owner.. His landlord was the owner.. so the landlord has to pay the HOA dues.. or maybe he tacks that on to George's rent every month.. But GZ is not the owner of record.

Wrongful death is a civil suit that has a lower standard of proof.. They are common actually.

Two of my boys participate in NW in two different states. Its casual. When they heard the GZ story.. all they said was what an effing idiot.

If you do start a NW, just consult an attorney and make sure the HOA has liability ins... and don't let any rambo types participate.

How do I control my neighbors, Sharon?