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Is the FRC a hate group?

It doesn't need to????????????????? No one is saying that being gay will always result in dying young. Only that by being gay you are at risk of dying younger or before your time for any number of reasons that, for being gay, and acting gay, and having gay sex, you're probably at a greater risk, so stop being gay, acting gay, and having gay sex, and you're probably in good shape... :)


Tim-

Here we go again. There is no "homosexual sex". This has already been established, definitions have been explained, yet you refuse to understand this. Being gay is an extraneous variable. The only way that you can justify ANYthing you just said is if you control for all other variables and THEN can show that you are at a greater risk, healthwise from BEING gay. Notice the word I placed in bold, Tim? This is the extraneous variable, that, if we control for it, will have no impact on life expectancy. And again, there is no "gay sex". Please get your definitions correct. Though I will continue to correct you, it is getting tiring having to do so in every thread where we both post, and in the majority of the posts of yours of which I respond.
 
It doesn't need to????????????????? No one is saying that being gay will always result in dying young. Only that by being gay you are at risk of dying younger or before your time for any number of reasons that, for being gay, and acting gay, and having gay sex, you're probably at a greater risk, so stop being gay, acting gay, and having gay sex, and you're probably in good shape... :)


Tim-

You are missing at least one other qualifier in there, although I think it's actually two. "By being gay" and a man and practicing unsafe sex you are at a higher risk of dying younger or contracting an STD. Being gay by itself is absolutely not the risk factor. Practicing unsafe sex is the major risk factor in the equation. Being a gay man (since you can be a gay woman and your risk is actually smaller) increases that risk due to the fact that a higher percentage currently has the virus and the kind of sex that some gay men choose to participate in is more effective at transferring the virus from one man to another man than vaginal sex is from transferring from a woman to a man. By increasing the use of safe sex practices among gay men you decrease their likelihood of contracting HIV or other STDs.

Telling a person not to be gay to avoid contracting HIV/AIDS is just as stupid as telling a person "don't be black and you'll up your life expectancy" or "don't be Native American/Hispanic and you'll decrease your odds of being an alcoholic" when none of that stuff is actually the cause of why those groups are different statistically than other groups. The cause of a lower life expectancy or a greater chance of contracting HIV/AIDS or some other STD as a gay man is due to unsafe sexual practices, not actually being gay.
 
You are missing at least one other qualifier in there, although I think it's actually two. "By being gay" and a man and practicing unsafe sex you are at a higher risk of dying younger or contracting an STD. Being gay by itself is absolutely not the risk factor. Practicing unsafe sex is the major risk factor in the equation. Being a gay man (since you can be a gay woman and your risk is actually smaller) increases that risk due to the fact that a higher percentage currently has the virus and the kind of sex that some gay men choose to participate in is more effective at transferring the virus from one man to another man than vaginal sex is from transferring from a woman to a man. By increasing the use of safe sex practices among gay men you decrease their likelihood of contracting HIV or other STDs.

Telling a person not to be gay to avoid contracting HIV/AIDS is just as stupid as telling a person "don't be black and you'll up your life expectancy" or "don't be Native American/Hispanic and you'll decrease your odds of being an alcoholic" when none of that stuff is actually the cause of why those groups are different statistically than other groups. The cause of a lower life expectancy or a greater chance of contracting HIV/AIDS or some other STD as a gay man is due to unsafe sexual practices, not actually being gay.

I TOLD him you weren't agreeing with him, but he wouldn't listen.
 
You are missing at least one other qualifier in there, although I think it's actually two. "By being gay" and a man and practicing unsafe sex you are at a higher risk of dying younger or contracting an STD. Being gay by itself is absolutely not the risk factor. Practicing unsafe sex is the major risk factor in the equation. Being a gay man (since you can be a gay woman and your risk is actually smaller) increases that risk due to the fact that a higher percentage currently has the virus and the kind of sex that some gay men choose to participate in is more effective at transferring the virus from one man to another man than vaginal sex is from transferring from a woman to a man. By increasing the use of safe sex practices among gay men you decrease their likelihood of contracting HIV or other STDs.

Telling a person not to be gay to avoid contracting HIV/AIDS is just as stupid as telling a person "don't be black and you'll up your life expectancy" or "don't be Native American/Hispanic and you'll decrease your odds of being an alcoholic" when none of that stuff is actually the cause of why those groups are different statistically than other groups. The cause of a lower life expectancy or a greater chance of contracting HIV/AIDS or some other STD as a gay man is due to unsafe sexual practices, not actually being gay.


The not being gay was tongue -n- cheek..

Being gay is not an absolute test of dying younger than your time, I've already stated this. They just happen to be associated with the group that will die younger than statistically significant.



Tim-
 
The not being gay was tongue -n- cheek..

Being gay is not an absolute test of dying younger than your time, I've already stated this. They just happen to be associated with the group that will die younger than statistically significant.



Tim-

And the reasons they are associated (correlation not causation) are the variables the affect the outcome. Being gay does not.
 
And the reasons they are associated (correlation not causation) are the variables the affect the outcome. Being gay does not.


Yes it does.. Part of being in the younger gay culture is in "free" sex. "free" means naked, (use your imagination). It's cultural, meaning representative, NOT atypical.


Tim-
 
Yes it does.. Part of being in the younger gay culture is in "free" sex. "free" means naked, (use your imagination). It's cultural, meaning representative, NOT atypical.


Tim-

Then "free sex" (whatever that is) is the issue. NOT being gay. Behavior vs. orientation, Tim. Still eludes you.
 
Dude, CC, really, you're out of your league. The CDC posted results in specific categoies, of which one of them was MSM. THAT is an statement of statistical fact!

You need to get a clue, bro.. :)


Tim-

You are aware that the CDC category you refer to is MSM, men who have sex with men, and is very intentionally NOT defined as homosexual men, as the two terms are not synonymous.
 
Why do you guys keep insisting I'm making an argument I'm not making??? I KNOW it's unprotected sex, CC?

Good lord, then stop calling it "homosexual sex" and just call it what it is, "unprotected anal sex". It is like you want to pretend that unprotected anal sex is synonymous with "homosexual sex". Sexual studies have shown that at least 10% of women practice regular anal sex and a much higher percentage have tried it at least once. Furthermore, less than half of gay men actually practice anal sex, preferring oral sex or frotting which are statistically far, far less probable to lead to HIV transmission. So given that women engage in anal sex and not all gay men engage in anal sex it is unfair and dishonest of you to characterize this debate with the insinuation that unprotected anal sex is synonymous with "homosexual sex".

Furthermore, the probability of attaining the virus is reduced when gay men have a committed, monogamous relationship even if they are practicing unprotected anal sex. You cannot get the virus from a clean partner so two clean gay men who are committed to each other can have all the "homosexual sex" they want with each and they will NEVER have a greater chance of contracting the virus as long as they remain loyal and committed to each other.

These are MEDICAL FACTS which you choose to ignore when you make your OVERGENERALIZED, DISHONEST, and simply WRONG statements that you are hoping to chastise and shame young gay men with when the message should not be "its wrong to be gay because you will get AIDS" but the medically accurate "if you practice unprotected anal sex outside of a committed relationship then you will greatly increase your potential exposure to HIV and potentially contract the disease."

You insist on politicizing it, which is not only disingenuous but IRRESPONSIBLE because you are spreading half truths and misinformation.
 
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I would still like to know what the life expectancy of American gay men has to do with the FRC's hate speech or with homophobia in general?

Assuming there is any rational relationship, why are we not also discussing the extended life expectancy of American lesbians? Are women just irrelevant when deciding whether or not to hate GLBT people?
 
I would still like to know what the life expectancy of American gay men has to do with the FRC's hate speech or with homophobia in general?

Assuming there is any rational relationship, why are we not also discussing the extended life expectancy of American lesbians? Are women just irrelevant when deciding whether or not to hate GLBT people?

Excellent point! During the whole period when AIDS afforded the bigoted and moralistic the opportunity to gorge themselves on "I told you so's", they were very reticent in their encouragement of women to turn lesbian for health reasons.
 
You are aware that the CDC category you refer to is MSM, men who have sex with men, and is very intentionally NOT defined as homosexual men, as the two terms are not synonymous.

They are typical of homosexual male sex. Men having sex with men that are NOT homosexual would be an extreme exception to the rule.

CT -
Good lord, then stop calling it "homosexual sex" and just call it what it is, "unprotected anal sex". It is like you want to pretend that unprotected anal sex is synonymous with "homosexual sex".

Unprotected anal sex IS mostly practiced by gay males age 16 to 30, otherwise their HIV infection rates wouldn't be going up.

Sexual studies have shown that at least 10% of women practice regular anal sex and a much higher percentage have tried it at least once

Maybe, although I might argue with the numbers, but even assuming it's true, their HIV infection rates aren't going up, in either the protected or unprotected categories.

Furthermore, less than half of gay men actually practice anal sex, preferring oral sex or frotting which are statistically far, far less probable to lead to HIV transmission.

How could you possibly know that less than half of gay ne do not practice anal sex?

So given that women engage in anal sex and not all gay men engage in anal sex it is unfair and dishonest of you to characterize this debate with the insinuation that unprotected anal sex is synonymous with "homosexual sex".

Nonesense.. I thought you were a critical thinker, CT? You're attempt to refute my argument was laughable and completely ignores the data. In fact your conclusion is antithetical to the data available.

Furthermore, the probability of attaining the virus is reduced when gay men have a committed, monogamous relationship even if they are practicing unprotected anal sex.

Well, sure, but monogamy isn't exactly a staple of the homosexual community, both male and female. You're an example as you've already stated that you no longer have protected sex with your partner, however, you really don't know what he's doing, and since if he does by chance sway even for a moment his chances of getting the bug is dramatically more than if a heterosexual man or woman sways. Therefore, If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful.

You cannot get the virus from a clean partner so two clean gay men who are committed to each other can have all the "homosexual sex" they want with each and they will NEVER have a greater chance of contracting the virus as long as they remain loyal and committed to each other.

Well of course. So why is HIV infection going up in the homosexual community and NOT in the heterosexual community? Heck we have way more in our sample, so one would expect that even as a percentage of incidence that straights would have more cases, but alas, no, it's not even close. Fact is that 65% of all new HIV infections in the USA are from men who have sex with men. You're either ignoring the data and trying to find some justification in your mind, or you do not know how to properly interpret the data, but either way you're very wrong.

These are MEDICAL FACTS which you choose to ignore when you make your OVERGENERALIZED, DISHONEST, and simply WRONG statements that you are hoping to chastise and shame young gay men with when the message should not be "its wrong to be gay because you will get AIDS" but the medically accurate "if you practice unprotected anal sex outside of a committed relationship then you will greatly increase your potential exposure to HIV and potentially contract the disease."

Chastise? Why has the homosexual community resisted mandatory HIV testing within its ranks for so many years and even now in largely infected areas the resisitence is even stronger??? You shouldn't be reprimanded me for bringing the correct message, you should turn your efforts to your own community. You want to eliminate HIV in young gays, then do something about it, but as of now and getting worse, gay men have a statistically poor chance of living past age 50, and even lessof a chance of living to age 74.

You insist on politicizing it, which is not only disingenuous but IRRESPONSIBLE because you are spreading half truths and misinformation.

I'm giving you the unrefutted truth. There's nothing half about it, it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's up to you to do something about it. Maybe a little fear is a good thing in your community. It worked in the 90's when the scare of AIDS was at its high point. Gay men actually became somewhat responsible with the truth, but the past decade and the onset of more effective drugs has spawned a whole new generation of ill informed young gay men.


Tim-
 
Excellent point! During the whole period when AIDS afforded the bigoted and moralistic the opportunity to gorge themselves on "I told you so's", they were very reticent in their encouragement of women to turn lesbian for health reasons.

What's somewhat funny is that I think you're actually serious here?


Tim-
 
Unprotected anal sex IS mostly practiced by gay males age 16 to 30, otherwise their HIV infection rates wouldn't be going up.

True.

Maybe, although I might argue with the numbers, but even assuming it's true, their HIV infection rates aren't going up, in either the protected or unprotected categories.

False.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/survey/survey-2010womenrisk.pdf
CDC - Condom Effectiveness - Male Latex Condoms and Sexually Transmitted Diseases

How could you possibly know that less than half of gay ne do not practice anal sex?

National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior

Nonesense.. I thought you were a critical thinker, CT? You're attempt to refute my argument was laughable and completely ignores the data. In fact your conclusion is antithetical to the data available.

Huh? I think you are trying to make the "HIV is a gay disease" argument, and it is making you look downright foolish at this point. Please go find any medical doctor and try to make this argument. Maybe they can talk some sense into you.

incidence3.gif


Well, sure, but monogamy isn't exactly a staple of the homosexual community, both male and female. You're an example as you've already stated that you no longer have protected sex with your partner, however, you really don't know what he's doing, and since if he does by chance sway even for a moment his chances of getting the bug is dramatically more than if a heterosexual man or woman sways. Therefore, If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful.

Well the homosexual community isn't exactly pressured by society to enter into a monogamous union contracted by the state and sanctified by religious authorities like the heterosexual community is...so I imagine the norm for monogamy might not be a norm quite at this point, particularly since same sex marriage hasn't even existed for a generation yet in any part of the world. And no, I'm not too worried about my partner. We are very faithful to each other. I'm a very lucky man.

Fact is that 65% of all new HIV infections in the USA are from men who have sex with men. You're either ignoring the data and trying to find some justification in your mind, or you do not know how to properly interpret the data, but either way you're very wrong.

I'm not sure what you think I'm wrong about. Yeah, most new HIV infections are from MSM. That doesn't change the point that it is "unprotected anal sex" that leads to the infection. MSM are just more likely to practice that specific behavior than the rest of the population. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to get.

Chastise? Why has the homosexual community resisted mandatory HIV testing within its ranks for so many years and even now in largely infected areas the resisitence is even stronger??? You shouldn't be reprimanded me for bringing the correct message, you should turn your efforts to your own community. You want to eliminate HIV in young gays, then do something about it, but as of now and getting worse, gay men have a statistically poor chance of living past age 50, and even lessof a chance of living to age 74.

Yeah, if you are infected with HIV, then your chances of living past 50 are not very good. I'm not sure what that has to do with being gay. Statistically speaking, if a gay man doesn't get HIV then I'm pretty sure he will live just as long as anyone else. All he has to do is not practice unprotected anal sex.

I'm giving you the unrefutted truth. There's nothing half about it, it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's up to you to do something about it. Maybe a little fear is a good thing in your community. It worked in the 90's when the scare of AIDS was at its high point. Gay men actually became somewhat responsible with the truth, but the past decade and the onset of more effective drugs has spawned a whole new generation of ill informed young gay men.

Why is it up to me? I've volunteered and worked with agencies to educate young gay men on the dangers of HIV and to encourage safer sex practices. What have you done? Nothing. You walk around condemning but clearly do not give a crap about young gay men aside from the twisted joy you seem to get out of chastising the youth of our population for their irresponsible behaviors. Good for you. I'm sure that make you feel holier than thou and all superior.

Most of these young guys didn't live through the 80s and see the deaths that occurred among the gay community. They see people living relatively normal lives with the disease and so they underestimate it. Nowadays, the retrovirals have gotten so good that they are even being considered as a preventive measure that people can take to keep from getting the disease.

That aside, you are playing a game. You know it is UNPROTECTED ANAL SEX that has to be discouraged. You are trying to distort the statistics to make it sound like being gay, in and of itself, will lead to a reduction in lifespan. If you are gay and practice responsible sex then you will most likely be fine. That is the truth. I'm not denying it, YOU are.

There are (conservatively) 6 million MSM in this country and there are approximately 1.2 million people living with HIV and approximately half of those are MSM. That means that up to 20% of MSM are living with HIV. Those are, indeed, not good numbers. 1 in 5 MSM with HIV. That is why it is advisable to inform gay men to assume that anyone they sleep with is infected and take precautions. However, the reduction in HIV cases which you have cited so fervently among MSM was in no small part due to the increased use of condoms. In fact, if every MSM actually used condoms then the disease would virtually die out in a generation, but that isn't likely going to happen. Some people just enjoy the risk too much and other fringe elements want the infection for whatever sick reason.
 
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Look, I get it, and so do you apparently. I don't think the conversation can be expressed any more clearly from my point of view. I hope your people get things under control, I really do..


Tim-
 
Look, I get it, and so do you apparently. I don't think the conversation can be expressed any more clearly from my point of view. I hope your people get things under control, I really do..


Tim-

In other words, you surrender. You have done nothing, as usual, to prove your position, Tim. What you have done is what you always do. Present half truths and false conclusions from information presented. Your initial premise is faulty and, hence, everything that flows from it is illogical, invalid, or both.
 
In other words, you surrender. You have done nothing, as usual, to prove your position, Tim. What you have done is what you always do. Present half truths and false conclusions from information presented. Your initial premise is faulty and, hence, everything that flows from it is illogical, invalid, or both.

And a dippitty doo daaa day to you too bro.. :)


Tim-
 
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How? They have committed no crime? Now we go from hate group to hate crime.

It never ends.
This thread is an effort to paint all opposition to SSM as a hate-group.

Kind of lame, but it's not his worst attempt. FRC is an easy target.
 
This thread is an effort to paint all opposition to SSM as a hate-group.

That is similar to arguing that it is an effort to paint all opposition to affirmative action as a hate-group if you dare claim the KKK is one.

It simply doesn't make sense, and is nothing but a weak attempt to color the FRC as less extreme than it is. Nobody in this thread is claiming the National Organization for Marriage is a hate group and they are the pioneers against same sex marriage. So stop playing the petty little victim, Jerry, the role does not suit you.
 
That is similar to arguing that it is an effort to paint all opposition to affirmative action as a hate-group if you dare claim the KKK is one.

It simply doesn't make sense, and is nothing but a weak attempt to color the FRC as less extreme than it is. Nobody in this thread is claiming the National Organization for Marriage is a hate group and they are the pioneers against same sex marriage. So stop playing the petty little victim, Jerry, the role does not suit you.
Oh please, little gold-digger like yourself thinks I'm sticking up for FRC. Whatever.
 
Oh please, little gold-digger like yourself thinks I'm sticking up for FRC. Whatever.

Gold digger? For crying out loud, I'm a social worker. If money mattered worth spit to me then I sure as hell chose the wrong profession.

Of course you are sticking up for FRC. You don't like gay people.
 
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