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Is the Bladensburg Cross Unconstitutional?

Once again, a 'conservative' fails to see the problem. The 'problem' is not that the Bladensburg cross is in "plain sight". The plaintiffs in the case have even said they would not object to the monument if it were to be moved to private property where the cross would still be visible to the public.

Yes, I fail to see the problem because as a conservative, if I am not shown the harm that is being caused, I tend to like to keep things as they are. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. And if it is working, don't break it. I generally despise iconoclasm, whether done in the name of religious zealotry or humanist zealotry, and I see little reason to give this cross the Confederate Monument treatment.

The problem is the cross being located on public property and not simply being visible to the public. The problem is taxpayer funds going to the maintenance of the monument and ther grounds upon which it stands. Taxpayer funding from citizens who do not have the same religious belief as the one indicated by the cross.

That is not an unworthy argument. Certainly, there are plenty of things that my tax dollars go to that I do not want funded, and that if I could simply have these Humanists sue on my behalf to make them stop, would certainly satisfy me. But if you are maintaining that this is the principle that you and the Humanists hold: that a minority people within a community who might not want their tax dollars going to particular monuments or institutions should be able to abolish those monuments and institutions from the public space, but only if they are religious? I do not see the harm that is caused by this monument that is not caused by other similar public monuments that people dislike and/or do not support yet take up public land and that their tax dollars may have been paid to maintain.

For example, what if I were a devout pacifist who was deeply morally opposed to any monument honoring fallen soldiers (whether religious or irreligious) being put up and maintained by my tax dollars because I felt that it was glorifying war? Why should my tax dollars go towards paying for that, even if a majority of my fellow citizens wanted one put up? Or in a more pressing case, we in California are paying for a high speed rail this is going to take decades to complete and is going far, far far over-budget. I believe most citizens in California were misled about the nature of this public works project and it will beggar our grandchildren since they will have to pay for it. Can I sue to have the project stopped, even though I am in the minority? Is that a legitimate grievance?
 
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No, that's incorrect.
Yea, great refutal.

Again, not correct.
See above.

Of course not.
More baseless denial.

I'm sure you'd rather have the political left's forcing of their beliefs and values on others
I really don't give a crap about what you are sure of, but it is a lie, as you can not offer any evidence for it.

And, as I pointed out, that you conveniently wish to dismiss and disregard the assholes on the left side.
And another lie from you. Gee, what a surprise...
 
So technically, it wouldn't violate church and state at all, because it's common to so many religion, it couldn't be seen as an endorsement of either one kind.

True...technically it should not be used as a Christian symbol at all...

You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion..." Exodus 20:4,5

"Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry." 1 Corinthians 10:14

“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.” 2 Corinthians 6:17,18
 
Not true...a cross is a T shaped symbol, while the crucifix is merely a T shaped symbol with the body of Christ on it...that is the only difference...long before it was adopted as a Christian symbol, it was indeed a pagan symbol...



https://diocesan.com/cross-crucifix-similar-different/

I stand corrected. Your point could be used to support keeping the cross at the cemetery. If the cross can be traced to many forms of worship, then it is a universal symbol of spirituality and not a sign of government preference of one religion over another.
 
Once again, a 'conservative' fails to see the problem. The 'problem' is not that the Bladensburg cross is in "plain sight". The plaintiffs in the case have even said they would not object to the monument if it were to be moved to private property where the cross would still be visible to the public.

The problem is the cross being located on public property and not simply being visible to the public. The problem is taxpayer funds going to the maintenance of the monument and ther grounds upon which it stands. Taxpayer funding from citizens who do not have the same religious belief as the one indicated by the cross.

Are Christians NOT also taxpayers?

Are Christians NOT members of the public?

Although I am as true an atheist as anyone can possibly be, my interpretation of the 1st Amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...", simply was to ensure no 'ONE' religion was to be allowed dominance over any other by our government and the laws created.
There are likely enough Christians paying taxes to cover the costs of maintenance, and since all tax revenue collected is combined, no one can say where the dollars they paid are being spent.
 
Yes, I fail to see the problem because as a conservative, if I am not shown the harm that is being caused, I tend to like to keep things as they are. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. And if it is working, don't break it. I generally despise iconoclasm, whether done in the name of religious zealotry or humanist zealotry, and I see little reason to give this cross the Confederate Monument treatment.



That is not an unworthy argument. Certainly, there are plenty of things that my tax dollars go to that I do not want funded, and that if I could simply have these Humanists sue on my behalf to make them stop, would certainly satisfy me. But if you are maintaining that this is the principle that you and the Humanists hold: that a minority people within a community who might not want their tax dollars going to particular monuments or institutions should be able to abolish those monuments and institutions from the public space, but only if they are religious? I do not see the harm that is caused by this monument that is not caused by other similar public monuments that people dislike and/or do not support yet take up public land and that their tax dollars may have been paid to maintain.

For example, what if I were a devout pacifist who was deeply morally opposed to any monument honoring fallen soldiers (whether religious or irreligious) being put up and maintained by my tax dollars because I felt that it was glorifying war? Why should my tax dollars go towards paying for that, even if a majority of my fellow citizens wanted one put up? Or in a more pressing case, we in California are paying for a high speed rail this is going to take decades to complete and is going far, far far over-budget. I believe most citizens in California were misled about the nature of this public works project and it will beggar our grandchildren since they will have to pay for it. Can I sue to have the project stopped, even though I am in the minority? Is that a legitimate grievance?

What if you were a devout (fundie) Christian, would you want your tax dollars to pay for a statue of Buddha or Ganesh?
 
I stand corrected. Your point could be used to support keeping the cross at the cemetery. If the cross can be traced to many forms of worship, then it is a universal symbol of spirituality and not a sign of government preference of one religion over another.

The Bladensburg Cross is not in a cemetary, it is placed in the middle of a traffic circle.
 
What if you were a devout (fundie) Christian, would you want your tax dollars to pay for a statue of Buddha or Ganesh?

“Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar"...Christians have an obligation to pay taxes but we have no control over where our taxes go once they leave our hands...
 
Do that junk in the privacy of your own home. I don't want my family exposed to that garbage.
Exposure to it, or not, is your option, your choice.
But you can't force an 'in private and out of public view' clause into the Constitution wherever and whenever you please.
 
Already know that we see things very differently.

So then prove that the left isn't, in context with the many anti-Christian legal suits brought, anti-Christians media attacks, the near constant elbowing of the Christian religion off of the public square.

It seems that most Christian denominations in the U.S. have about 40% of their members leaning Democrat. The exception is evangelicals with 20%. Just because the majority of atheist lean left does not mean the majority of the left leans atheist.

Why do those on the right insist on conflating left leaning, with atheism? Perhaps your question should have been "So prove that the atheist isn't ..."

Since you didn't ask about atheists and instead asked about those that lean left - consider it proven.

http://http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/party-affiliation/

Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center
 
Exposure to it, or not, is your option, your choice.
But you can't force an 'in private and out of public view' clause into the Constitution wherever and whenever you please.

just keep that shirt away from me and my family

you must understand how bad that crap can be for people, has been for society
 
just keep that shirt away from me and my family
No one is forcing you anywhere near it.
you must understand how bad that crap can be for people, has been for society

As well as the foundation on which the entirety of Western Civilization rests, as well as the foundations of 'The Enlightenment'.
That, and they are the guys that started brewing beer. :)

There's some good in there as well. It's not all as black and white as you might believe. But believe as you will.
 
Is a cross a purely Christian symbol when it is used as a fallen veteran memorial? The SCOTUS will be making a decision on this matter in the next couple weeks.



Reasons offered by the American Humanist Assn.


All quotes from [URL="https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/01/31/heres-why-the-supreme-court-must-say-the-bladensburg-cross-is-unconstitutional/]Here’s Why the Supreme Court Must Say the Bladensburg Cross Is Unconstitutional[/URL]

What's next, take all the crosses from the graves at Arlington?
 
What if you were a devout (fundie) Christian, would you want your tax dollars to pay for a statue of Buddha or Ganesh?

The 'Peace Cross' in Bladensburg was created by private donations. The property was taken by government for non-religious reasons, thereby making government responsible to maintain it, again for non-religious reasons.
Our Nation, again IMO, only became a Nation as a result of people coming to accept the individuals freedom to choose any religion, or no religion, and government neither require nor deny that individual right. I'm more offended by persons whose complaints of being visually offended result in a cost to taxpayers, and by those who when they don't get their way in court resort to vandalism and destroy property, private and/or public. Like free speech, you are not entitled to force people to listen. And in the case of the 'Peace Cross', simply don't look if it offends you, and besides that when driving your attention should be focused on the road and traffic, not the scenery with the exception of road signs/signals.
As a non-religious person, I view a cross symbolic of death, and have used it marking a burial site, most recently of 4 of our dogs who were killed by a cobra on our front porch.
Looking at the filing, I noticed mention of a group called the "Freedom From Religion Foundation". Such an organization, again IMO, sounds to be unconstitutional and in violation of the 1st Amendment.
 
It's worth noting that the American Humanist Association supported the Satanist statue of the deity Baphomet on public grounds.

Which is not to say that they support Satanists, but it is to say their objection to religious symbolism on public ground is selective and utilitarian.

Probably why they will lose their case.
 
The Bladensburg Cross is not in a cemetary, it is placed in the middle of a traffic circle.

While it is not a cemetery, it commemorates the lives of 49 local men who gave their lives in WWI, and may be buried elsewhere. It is essentially a war memorial, in no way promoting any one religion, but instead lives given so that others may live free. Sadly, a great many today appear more intent to reduce our freedom and denigrate those who made the greatest sacrifice trying to ensure it.
 
While it is not a cemetery, it commemorates the lives of 49 local men who gave their lives in WWI, and may be buried elsewhere. It is essentially a war memorial, in no way promoting any one religion, but instead lives given so that others may live free. Sadly, a great many today appear more intent to reduce our freedom and denigrate those who made the greatest sacrifice trying to ensure it.

If a cobra killed your dog, you either live in South Florida or in Asia, which is neither here nor there in relation to this thread. However, how would moving the memorial from public land to private property reduce your freedom or denigrate those who died in WWI?
 
It is essentially a war memorial, in no way promoting any one religion, but instead lives given so that others may live free

You are seriously trying to claim that the cross is not a symbol of Christianity? You’re going to go with that?

Tell you what: show me a cross as a war memorial erectected by a country that is not predominantly Christian. If Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist countries also use the cross as a generic symbol, I’ll agree with you.
 
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What if you were a devout (fundie) Christian, would you want your tax dollars to pay for a statue of Buddha or Ganesh?

Well, I've never been a devout Christian, but was raised and grew up as a rather devout Baha'i before I became an atheist. But if I were possessed of the same breadth of knowledge and temperament I have now but was, say, a strict Calvinist and believed in the inerrant word of the Bible, I might be grossly offended that my tax dollars were going towards building and maintaining idols to pagan gods and prophets. However, my rancor would be lessened if I knew that by allowing pagan idols of false gods to stand would allow for the symbols of my faith (the one true faith) to stand in the public square alongside them. If by allowing other faiths to be practiced in the public square, mine in turn not be erased by those I saw as radical secularists, I believe I would find it an acceptable compromise. For then the truly righteous could pick the true from the false. Again, were I a devout fundamentalist Christian.
 
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Well, I've never been a devout Christian, but was a rather devout Baha'i before I became an atheist. But if I were possessed of the same breadth of knowledge and temperament I have now but was, say, a strict Calvinist and believed in the inerrant word of the Bible, I might be grossly offended that my tax dollars were going towards building and maintaining idols to pagan gods and prophets. However, my rancor would be lessened if I knew that by allowing pagan idols of false gods to stand would allow for the symbols of my faith (the one true faith) to stand in the public square alongside them. If by allowing other faiths to be practiced in the public square, mine in turn not be erased by those I saw as radical secularists, I believe I would find it an acceptable compromise. Again, were I a devout fundamentalist Christian.

Good, and you have stated exactly the views of many non-Christian groups who protest Christian markers on public property

- If your god is memorialised, then so should mine. If I can't have my god on public property, then neither should you be allowed to put yours there.
 
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