There is a difference between knowing they can be tapped, and on what basis they may be tapped.
The "universal wiretapping" thing is a great strawman though. You should definitely stick to that, no one will notice the lack of foundation.
How is it a strawman if that's exactly what Snowden revealed?
Yes he is a patriot. He is more deserving of the nobel peace prize than that asshole Obama.I do wonder if Obama wears it when he is droning little kids.
Again, to examine information about American citizens, there is a process the NSA must go through. Obviously they've gone through the process more than once, and have done an in-depth examination of American citizens. But that process includes court approval.
If you can't prove that the NSA bypassed the approval process (I know for a fact that you can't, because it is something I'm interested in myself), then the constitutionality remains intact at the time being.
On a side note, I do think that the court process is the weak link in the chain. I have not been able to find information about the criteria the court holds a request to before granting it, and I do know they've granted above 90% of the 500 some odd requests made. But, there is a process for challenging the constitutionality of the program, and thus far, it is legal.
Maybe you don't like it, but that doesn't diminish the program or the US Constitution in the slightest.
The fact is we don't really know what the U.S. government is doing with this data. The Washington Post had a story about a week ago which showed that a special division within the DEA had been receiving tips from the NSA. The DEA would receive evidence from the DEA illegally and reconstruct their entire investigation to make it look like the investigation was done legally in their prosecution of drug crimes.
That is not legal, and it is an example where the NSA has went beyond just terrorism and into ordinary crimes by American citizens.
Is Snowden a patriot for leaking that the NSA was tapping thousands of phone calls without warrants?
Some of the conversations surrounding this amaze me, the reason being... We've had them all before.
First - We already knew the government was monitoring communications since 911. People who were surprised by this, AGAIN, were simply not paying attention.
This was a part of the old Patriot Act debates more than a decade ago.
Second - I am very close to someone with a security clearance. This person tells me NOTHING. And if this person did tell me anything at all of a secure nature, then this person would be breaking the law. Snowden broke the law. He is a criminal. PERIOD.
Third - Both Americans and Terrorists alike seemed to have forgotten that the Government monitors communications. For us Americans it has had zero effect. One thing you do NOT hear about is a situation where information was used to harm a normal American.
But for the Terrorists and other enemies of our Nation... the fact that they had forgotten was HUGE.
Now that Snowden has made a spectacle about it and made the news world wide, we no longer have this advantage towards our enemies. They are reminded and in some cases even have great detail as to the very method and type of snooping we perform.
So Yes, of course Snowden harmed our national security. There is no doubt about this.
Sounds like you are real comfortable with the CIA up your arse. I do not want any "big brother" in my face, up my nose, around my house, in my phone, etc. The CIA is running armies in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, etc., and operating drone programs, and its "support" administration (as opposed to Intelligence gathering) is ubiquitous. To me, it seems to be the largest problem in our Nation. It operates like a shadow gov't and even the President seems afraid to confront the agency. The NSA is just another CIA hub.
Whether I like it or not was never the subject.
Truthfully, I was severely opposed to it under Bush. I am much more relaxed about it under Obama.
The subject is about Snowden and whether or not he is a Patriot, however. Not about my personal hypocrisy.
Snowden told us things we already knew. Maybe he pointed to more direct instances, but under Bush we already knew these things were occurring.
If I am not mistaken, there are 10 year old debate threads in this very forum criticizing Bush for the same type things Snowden has presented.
Snowden broke the law and in the process he also shined a spotlight for our enemies on exactly how we have been catching them so well.
Information our enemies already knew, just as the American people already knew it. Yet it is also information the American people seemed to have forgotten, just as our enemies seemed to had forgotten.
This world wide reminder has harmed our security.
Snowden is a criminal and must be prosecuted as such or we can never again prosecute any traitor that breaches their security clearance.
I certainly disagree. You are parroting the gov't line that everybody already knew about this, but that is not true. I remember my angst when the Patriot Act was passed, but it never was emphasized just how pervasive the eavesdropping on the USA public would be and that is the problem. Snowden has brought attention to our rights being violated on a grand scale, both the rights and the amount. Also, outright lying to Congressional committees questioning these activities. The lies are the flashing red lights that they all know that what they are doing is illegal. Beyond even the extreme activities legalized by the Patriot Act.
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