Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GOP?

[Henrin]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

It can't and won't be repealed. Once an entitlement program is in place, it's virtually impossible to repeal.

What they need to do now is come up with a plan that benefits most Americans, lowers costs for everyone, and keeps costs low.

It's pretty much the same with anything involving government though. When government starts providing people with services people will naturally become dependent on them and it very hard to remove them from whatever market they pushed their way into without someone being hurt. It doesn't help that every last market they get involved in becomes more expensive either. Ever since the government got involved in healthcare more than 100 years ago prices have only increased and the same is true for education or pretty much anything else they have ever touched.

Everyone believes they are great, but in reality they are the biggest **** ups in the history of the planet.

Look at house prices since the 1970's. That is a wonderful example of just how much the government sucks.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

It can't and won't be repealed. Once an entitlement program is in place, it's virtually impossible to repeal.

What they need to do now is come up with a plan that benefits most Americans, lowers costs for everyone, and keeps costs low.

Well, sure - that's what everyone wants. Preferably this plan won't cost anyone anything and it will solve all our healthcare problems without any downside. The problem is every time anyone from either side proposes any actual plan with enough details to determine the effects, the downsides are obvious.

I think there is a good reason the GOP prefers to address 'reform' with talking points that emphasize the goals, rather than introduce any plan where the costs can be fairly evaluated. The basic problem is the vast majority of the uninsured are either poor, or sick, and getting them covered will cost a lot of money. No GOP plan that I've seen realistically addresses that huge cost. OR, the plan does come in cheap, because it does little to nothing to deal with the problem of the poor and sick.

The GOP plan discussed on another thread that dealt with the sick with $300 million per year to cover the high risk pools of all 50 states is a perfect example - that's not even 1/10th the real cost. The initial ACA funding was $5 billion during the transition and that was woefully inadequate. So it's a tiny bandaid on a gaping wound, or cramming the issue down to the state level where the costs can be better hidden or not incurred if the state doesn't care to address the problem.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

It's really pathetic women are getting fired up because they can't force their will on employers. Yes ladies, employers have rights too. Shocking, isn't it? Yup, another human being has human rights. Who would have thunk it? That has got to be the most epic feminist movement fail of all time.

Hi, we are an equal rights movement and we want to force our will on you, and no, you're not our slave, and no, you don't have the right to your property and labor. Lol. Stop thinking you have rights you evil business men.

That is where you fail. A person does not have the right to discriminate based on sex, race or religion in America. I know that is what you hate about it, but it is our destiny.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

This law doesn't have to be repealed to kill it. It can be done in two easy steps:

1) Pass a new law that that reaffirms the individual states freedom to manage their own healthcare laws as they see fit

Well, that's a repeal of the law. All you're left with are non-binding suggestions, and no funding.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

The problem is conservative proposals to 'deal with' pre-existing conditions is almost always a dumping ground high risk pool funded by the states with little help from the Feds, and we know (have many examples) that those just don't work. And IMO those are terrible policy choices because it provides an incentive for insurers to just cherry pick the healthiest patients with the lowest risk and then dump all the high risk patients onto the public - private profits, socialized costs.

I noticed you left out healthcare coverage for the poor - I agree that's not a high priority for the conservatives, which is why it's going to be impossible to get to a 'bipartisan' plan. Dealing with the poor will cost real money and the GOP has no interest in paying any real money to accomplish any goal of healthcare reform.

Of course the Republican proposals don't work, they are designed that way. The idea that a party so invested in the failure of Govt. would want a working HC bill that actually improves the availability of HC insurance is laughable. It would disprove their main party platform.

 

[year2late]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

I worked with a young client the other day with a pre-existing condition who now has insurance and it struck me how badly his life would be affected if Obamacare were repealed. I wonder if we are past the point of no return. Would the GOP face major political consequences if they tried to repeal it at this point?

That will be the heart of it.

And before ACA it was never just about having a major pre-existing condition like stroke or diabetes, it was about the little stuff too. An insurance company finding out you had a non cancerous mole removed 15 years ago and refusing a cancer claim all those years later. I have thought frequently if insurance companies were less focused on how to REFUSE you care and more focused on how to get you the best care for the best price.....that the ACA would never have been put as is.

But the reality is that the insurance companies are after their bottom line and not about your health.

I am curious. IF ACA was wiped away.......how many people think that the wonderful insurance companies that ONLY raised their rates because of ACA would substantially lower their rates? :lamo

 

[jmotivator]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

The problem is conservative proposals to 'deal with' pre-existing conditions is almost always a dumping ground high risk pool funded by the states with little help from the Feds, and we know (have many examples) that those just don't work. And IMO those are terrible policy choices because it provides an incentive for insurers to just cherry pick the healthiest patients with the lowest risk and then dump all the high risk patients onto the public - private profits, socialized costs.

Fully funded high risk pools (a Republican alternative in 2010) were calculated to cost the about $20 billion in federal funds to maintain in all 50 states as a supplement to state funding. I haven't seen a Republican plan for high risk pools that doesn't include Federal funding.

I noticed you left out healthcare coverage for the poor - I agree that's not a high priority for the conservatives, which is why it's going to be impossible to get to a 'bipartisan' plan. Dealing with the poor will cost real money and the GOP has no interest in paying any real money to accomplish any goal of healthcare reform.

Republicans focus more on jobs for the poor than on handouts, true.

 

[jmotivator]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

Well, that's a repeal of the law. All you're left with are non-binding suggestions, and no funding.

You failed to quote the second half wherein I made PPACA a non-manditory option for the states. The states could still choose to go the sufficatingly regulated Federal way if they wanted to.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

Fully funded high risk pools (a Republican alternative in 2010) were calculated to cost the about $20 billion in federal funds to maintain in all 50 states as a supplement to state funding. I haven't seen a Republican plan for high risk pools that doesn't include Federal funding.



Republicans focus more on jobs for the poor than on handouts, true.

You mean Republicans are more focused on calling the unemployed "lazy" so they can deny them help. Republicans are historically very poor at actually helping job growth or lowering unemployment. They are a bit better at creating public sector jobs though. Ironically Republicans seem to be better at growing Govt. than Dems.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

Fully funded high risk pools (a Republican alternative in 2010) were calculated to cost the about $20 billion in federal funds to maintain in all 50 states as a supplement to state funding. I haven't seen a Republican plan for high risk pools that doesn't include Federal funding.

Right - the Empowering Patients First Act provided $300 million, or 1.5% of the $20 billion projected total cost. Empowering Patients First Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Republicans focus more on jobs for the poor than on handouts, true.

And for the working poor, republicans would do what exactly? And for the non-working poor, the plan is "Don't get sick. And if you do get sick, die quickly?" Or did you have some other idea?

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

That is where you fail. A person does not have the right to discriminate based on sex, race or religion in America. I know that is what you hate about it, but it is our destiny.

Where did he suggest discrimination?

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

It's pretty much the same with anything involving government though. When government starts providing people with services people will naturally become dependent on them and it very hard to remove them from whatever market they pushed their way into without someone being hurt. It doesn't help that every last market they get involved in becomes more expensive either. Ever since the government got involved in healthcare more than 100 years ago prices have only increased and the same is true for education or pretty much anything else they have ever touched.

Everyone believes they are great, but in reality they are the biggest **** ups in the history of the planet.

Look at house prices since the 1970's. That is a wonderful example of just how much the government sucks.

Once the government gets involved in something, from a regulatory standpoint or otherwise, inevitably it causes costs to rise.

 

[jmotivator]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

You mean Republicans are more focused on calling the unemployed "lazy" so they can deny them help. Republicans are historically very poor at actually helping job growth or lowering unemployment. They are a bit better at creating public sector jobs though. Ironically Republicans seem to be better at growing Govt. than Dems.

Your overly simplified chart assumes that the President creates jobs. Try doing the same chart but showing which party was in control of congress at the time.

(Hint: Democrats controlled congress for all of those presidents up until Clinton)

 

[Henrin]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

That is where you fail. A person does not have the right to discriminate based on sex, race or religion in America. I know that is what you hate about it, but it is our destiny.

If I am providing a service or I own the property in question I do in fact have a right to discriminate against anyone I damn well please.

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

That will be the heart of it.

And before ACA it was never just about having a major pre-existing condition like stroke or diabetes, it was about the little stuff too. An insurance company finding out you had a non cancerous mole removed 15 years ago and refusing a cancer claim all those years later. I have thought frequently if insurance companies were less focused on how to REFUSE you care and more focused on how to get you the best care for the best price.....that the ACA would never have been put as is.

But the reality is that the insurance companies are after their bottom line and not about your health.

I am curious. IF ACA was wiped away.......how many people think that the wonderful insurance companies that ONLY raised their rates because of ACA would substantially lower their rates? :lamo

Probably none of them. But they aren't lowering their rates with the ACA, are they?

 

[Henrin]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

Where did he suggest discrimination?

I didn't. I was talking about providing people with services at all, not deciding to give those services to some people and not other people.

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

Before all republicans said no to the whole plan, they said no to single payer.

The Democrats also said no to single payer.

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

I didn't. I was talking about providing people with services at all, not deciding to give those services to some people and not other people.

So who is getting what services that others in the employ of the same company are not getting?

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

You're right on the second point but wrong on the first, although normally it would be impossible to repeal an entitlement program.
The difference here is that this entitlement program is broken now.
Normally entitlement programs take many more years to be made clear that they could never have worked forever.
If the SC gets a hold of the State vs Feds subsidy and rules on what the Law actually says that's tantamount to a repeal.
Then your second point can be realized.

BTW, did you see that Jonathan Gruber Obamacare architect character try to moonwalk away from his prior comments about State-Exchange-only-subsidies?
It totally destroyed any argument that the language in the Law restricting subsidies to State Exchanges was unintentional.

I agree the ACA is broken. But if we all agree it's an entitlement program, history pretty much tells us that it won't go away now that it's here.

I did see that about Gruber. Is that guy a slimy character or what?

 

[Henrin]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

So who is getting what services that others in the employ of the same company are not getting?

There is none. If someone decides to not provide birth control coverage or anything else for that matter then no one is getting the service. For some strange reason this is gender discrimination according to some people. :/

 

[year2late]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

Probably none of them. But they aren't lowering their rates with the ACA, are they?

But preexisting conditions are covered and lifetime maximums are not an issue with ACA. So if the rates remained the same and they took away to HUUUUUUGE components, well - crap.

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

But preexisting conditions are covered and lifetime maximums are not an issue. So if the rates remained the same and they took away to HUUUUUUGE components, well - crap.

The act is called "Affordable Care Act". In order to be affordable for most people, costs have to come down for everyone. They haven't. They aren't.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

You failed to quote the second half wherein I made PPACA a non-manditory option for the states. The states could still choose to go the sufficatingly regulated Federal way if they wanted to.

That's not a bad idea. That way Texas residents (I'm assuming) would pay all the ACA taxes, but get none of the benefits, and that would lower the cost to the rest of the country!

Of course the problem is then Texas would just dump all the sick and old and otherwise uninsured, or those too expensive to insure, on the rest of the country, then they'd get to boast about how much lower their healthcare costs are because the sick people are forced to move away.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

The act is called "Affordable Care Act". In order to be affordable for most people, costs have to come down for everyone. They haven't. They aren't.

How can we cover an additional 40-50 million and have costs come down for everyone?

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: Is Obamacare past the point that it can be repealed without consequence to the GO

How can we cover an additional 40-50 million and have costs come down for everyone?

With the ACA costs won't come down. It's misnamed. It isn't meant to make it affordable for everyone. It's meant to cover poor people, with a few other things added in.