Is not Christ the most significant figure in history? (1 Viewer)

[Skateguy]

I have found it to be prudent to believe little of what I read. People not only make mistakes in their assessments, but also often have agendas to support. --I see no exceptions to my rule.

 

[First Thought]

It was a way to codify the beliefs into what was most politically advantageous for the Roman Empire. Some pretty big issues were decided there, including which books stayed.

Okay, I had not heard that the books were discussed there.

 

[the makeout hobo]

Okay, I had not heard that the books were discussed there.

Why do you think we have the books we have in the bible? They weren't the only contestants.

 

[the makeout hobo]

I don't know if I'd be so bold as to claim it was focused on political maneuvering. It was more like a meeting that determined which beliefs were to be accepted and codified and which were discarded or labeled as heresies via a consensus of the most popular and influential theologians of the time. There was much disagreement, especially regarding the nature of Jesus. It appears that the conclusions were arrived at by something like a vote.

I find it amusing that the theological issues were resolved in such a manner.

Except that it was just the church leaders that Constantine invited. It wasn't all important church leaders, Arians were notably underrepresented for instance, and I'm not sure if there were any gnostics.

 

[First Thought]

Why do you think we have the books we have in the bible? They weren't the only contestants.

That's my position.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...nificant-figure-history-9.html#post1058488521

 

[TwilightPrincess]

Is it not immensely compelling to you that this poor Jew born in a barn under the thumb of mighty Rome is the most influential man to ever walk the earth? Does it not strike you that no king, scientist or other figure has had such an impact on history as this poor child raised by a carpenter?

Now what if i said to you that my brother was born amongst a bunch of hay in a barn surrounded by lambs and i said he was opressed by the government and did miracles only to be hung because of Blasphemy? Would you believe that? probably not. so whats to make you believe that Jesus was real or not?

 

[khajmer]

Jesus is, in the most widely accepted book of the most influential people in history, number three. Second was Isaac Newton because, let's face it, he basically invented physics. First went to Muhammad, prophet of the Muslim faith, because unlike Jesus he wasn't just prominent figure in religious history, but also had a direct impact on political history because he chose to directly involve himself in it where Jesus chose to stay away. I personally agree with the placings, although quite frankly I would have included Abraham at least somewher in the top 10 (no offense to Einstein).

 

[Andalublue]

Is not Christ the most significant figure in history?

Well, is that a "yes" then?

 

[justone]

Please tell me the years that you think Pythagoras lived and did his work in geometry.

What post of mine does make you to conclude that I think? I don't.

How is about answering to my post directed to you?


P.S. You have made at least 3 unbased assumptions in one sentence.

1. He was one person.
2. All the work was done by him.
3. He lived.


You see, no thinking.

 

[justone]

Grow a brain, learn to read, get some therapy and do a web-search on "Pythagoras" and "Algebra".

As I predicted in the beginning and as I predicted so many times, atheists finish another tread/conversation with meaningless insults and insinuations. The clear demonstration of anti-intellectualism of atheism should prove to any reasonable person that atheists are a danger for society, and to explain why “Communism begins where atheism begins…” (Karl Marx), why “within the philosophical system of Marx and Lenin and at the heart of their psychology, HATRED OF GOD is the principle driving force, more fundamental than all their political and economic pretensions’’.

Here we see another demonstration of such a psychology, predicted like a clock.

 

[the makeout hobo]

What post of mine does make you to conclude that I think? I don't.

Oh, I never assumed you think. Don't worry.

How is about answering to my post directed to you?

Which one?

P.S. You have made at least 3 unbased assumptions in one sentence.

1. He was one person.
2. All the work was done by him.
3. He lived.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If those assumptions are false, what is the truth?


You see, no thinking.[/QUOTE]

 

[justone]

Oh, I never assumed you think. Don't worry.

I am glad you’ve clarified that. I felt offended.

Which one?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...ificant-figure-history-17.html#post1058465751

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If those assumptions are false, what is the truth?

The truth is that the originals of geometry can be positively traced only to texts written/printed by Christians. The references to Greeks made by the Christians are not verified and generally are not consistent. Take Greek mythology as an example. How many books have been written about it, how many have you read, watched made into movies have you imagined? To how many times have you atheists been referring to it as to some historical truth? The fact is that it all has the only one source – Homer. The facts are that you suggest that there was a blind guy who produced 700 pages of text, which he sung, in oral tradition, and then somebody memorized 700 pages, and so on the exact text was preserved for 500 or 700 years, and then some Christians wrote it exactly or close as Homer was singing in oral tradition 700 years before them. I am sorry, it is total absurd, delirium, idiocy, and I don’t even know how to call it. Obviously, Ancient Greeks and their life and mythology was made up by some Christian authors adding pages upon pages of text made up by them to what could be a few pages of an ancient Greece, if to believe to the Christian monks that it, ancient Greece had existed. (When at the same time it is the fact that Christian monks did not have the same mathematical and physical tools as they developed a lot later on to analyze chronology and events and geography and it is the fact their main goal was the bible) . The same is true with Euclid and Aristotle and everything else. Obviously their final volumes are products of Christian monks re-writing and adding and changing the texts. It is not like rewriting the Bible where the attitude was totally different. I don’t think. If I see a text produced by Christian monks, I say this is the text produced by Christian monks. No thinking.

 

[the makeout hobo]

I am glad you’ve clarified that. I felt offended.

The truth is that the originals of geometry can be positively traced only to texts written/printed by Christians.

Which Christians, in which texts?

The references to Greeks made by the Christians are not verified and generally are not consistent.

Are you calling those christians liars for claiming they got their influence from the ancient greeks? What about engineering, like several early roman buildings and roads, that show off these principles, that are older than 2000 years old?

Take Greek mythology as an example. How many books have been written about it, how many have you read, watched made into movies have you imagined? To how many times have you atheists been referring to it as to some historical truth? The fact is that it all has the only one source – Homer.

Dead wrong. There's Hesiod, there's the Library of Pseudo-Apollodorus, there's a whole score of playwrights like Sophicles and Euripides. There's historians and naturalists who recorded beliefs and myths, such as Herodotus. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The facts are that you suggest that there was a blind guy who produced 700 pages of text, which he sung, in oral tradition, and then somebody memorized 700 pages, and so on the exact text was preserved for 500 or 700 years, and then some Christians wrote it exactly or close as Homer was singing in oral tradition 700 years before them.

Now I'm no expert on the Homeric Epics, but many people, Atheists included, doubt there was a single historic Homer. I personally doubt there was a single person, but rather it was an oral tradition that was passed on down the years. You doubt that people could memorize the Illiad and Oddessey? There's people who have the entire Koran or the entire Bible memorized. People have amazing memories, and researchers have shown that in preliterate societies, where people are trained since youth to memorize large amounts or information, they can be ridiculously good at it. Furthermore, there are codified copies of the poems going back to 200 BC. You know what BC means, right? Before Christ.

I am sorry, it is total absurd, delirium, idiocy, and I don’t even know how to call it. Obviously, Ancient Greeks and their life and mythology was made up by some Christian authors adding pages upon pages of text made up by them to what could be a few pages of an ancient Greece, if to believe to the Christian monks that it, ancient Greece had existed.

Why would the Christian monks do something so time-consuming and silly? it makes no sense. Futhermore, there's references to these things in Non-Christian sources. The persians have never been Christians, going from being Zorastrians to being Muslims. And Persian records are rife with information about the ancient Greeks, as the two were long time rivals.

(When at the same time it is the fact that Christian monks did not have the same mathematical and physical tools as they developed a lot later on to analyze chronology and events and geography and it is the fact their main goal was the bible) .

So their main goal is the bible and they right hundred of pages of pagan myth... right...

The same is true with Euclid and Aristotle and everything else. Obviously their final volumes are products of Christian monks re-writing and adding and changing the texts. It is not like rewriting the Bible where the attitude was totally different. I don’t think. If I see a text produced by Christian monks, I say this is the text produced by Christian monks. No thinking.

What are you basing this "obvious deduction" off of?

 

[the makeout hobo]

When you do not follow formalities of quoting do not expect to be always noted. Also I cannot answer to all atheists. Ok let’s take a look at another ‘’one cannot proof a negative’’, ‘’theism is a presence of belief in god”…

What about them? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Are you kidding? Atheists are so annoying with their 4th grade mentality. Because there is no chain of historical events recording Shri Lankers introducing any knowledge, the less hospitals to others, less to the West and to the East, while obviously we only have records of Christians of the West and of the East spreading knowledge, schools, universities and hospitals to others. The facts of reality make stories about Chinese inventing powder gun no more than a hallucination. Hallucinations are what you read in history books, - things which cannot happen in reality, which have no records, no facts behind them.

What would you consider definitive proof?

Are you submitting this question as a valid objection? Atheists are so annoying with their 4th grade mentality.

Yes, it is a valid question. How close to an event does a source have to be to be accepted by you? Is something 40 years later unacceptable? If so I hope you don't put any stock in the gospel, which was written much later than Christ's ministry.

There are things which can happen and there things which cannot. Atheists believe in most dubious things which cannot happen. Bricks do not jump up in the air by themselves. You know it. I know it. Atheistic scientists have proven mathematically that bricks can jump. You know they can’t. I know they can’t. Yet you believe the scientific community but not your own freezing skin. No source is need – it is freezing here.

So you have no source whatsoever. You have no grasp on reality and are trying to twist the facts to fit your own ridiculous agenda. History did not start at 1 AD, there was much going on before that, humans do not need your religion to get them to create.

I said his math was flawed. He was fighting it. I said we calculate using Kepler’s laws of planetary motion not Copernicus, less Galileo.

Where exactly was the flaw in his math?

I have no clue. Algebra consists of so many different things – I have no clue who ever called all of them or some of them algebra. You have no clue. Nobody has any clue. Is it necessary to make things up when nobody has a clue?

We do have a clue. It comes from the arabic phrase "al-jabr", from the book "The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion (al-jabr in arabic) and Balancing" written by Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī in 820. We still have copies of the book.

We know about Ahmed ibn Yusuf only from a Christian monk Gerard of Cremona. Oh, no, we know about Ahmed ibn Yusuf from what somebody who told us about Ahmed ibn Yusuf made up by a Christian monk Gerard of Cremona. We look at the 1250.jpg we clearly see a Christian monk , dressed only like a Christian monk with tonsura of a medeval christian monk http://www.paulfrecker.com/images/monk.jpg http://www.traditioninaction.org/SOD/SODimages5/235_Monk_Contemplation.jpg

Why would the monk make it up? It makes no sense to claim it was all done by a random heathen.

And we must believe to historians that we see Persian physician Rhazes?
Do you see a Christian Monk or you prefer to live in the world of hallucinations?

Some random picture proves nothing at all, try actual sources not these little games.

I said I open my cross reference on higher mathematics, 600 pages - no Muslims are there. I am sorry, atheists have made up endless myths, I do not have time to dig into each and every to show that it has no grounds under it. I have all reasons to believe my cross reference book, - it never let me down and it used to be so helpful in my life.

So did atheists make it up, or did Christian monks? make up your mind. Also, maybe your book was rewritten by crazy christians, why should I trust it as a source?

According to whom?

Every historian I've ever read agress they lived in the BC. You know, Before Christ?

What a misery. You scrub all dust from al the corners. The next time when you need to name Jews who were/are real contributors ask me.

And why don't their contributions count?

SI base unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SI derived unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All Christains, right wing fundamentalists.

PAR is normally quantified as µmol photons/m2/second

They sure as hell weren't all christians or right wing fundies, you have no idea what you're talking about. Furthermore, you asked if ANY SI measurements were named after jews, I showed you one that was, apparently it doesn't count when you don't want it to count.

 

[Phantom]

Pink Floyd = more significant figures in history!

 

[Rogero]

In my opinion, the NT is to be read with scrutiny. I also believe in cross-referencing the accepted books(OT and NT) with the unaccepted(Gnostic). The view we have of Christ is the view someone decided we should have, since books were either approved or rejected for use in the Bible.

Christianity viewed in Cf. with Gnostic texts would be an unwise thing to use as an accurate representation of Christian tradition.

The tradition of Christianity included stewards to guard against heresy, this presbyterate specifically excluded those books because of their heretical views about God that contradicted the entire sense of him in scripture from the OT unto the NT.

Gnostics analogized scripture passages in a way that was completely contradictory to literal senses, and often wrote their own material to pass off to others an "authoritative" sense of God and Jesus.

But the Gnostic gods were not the Christian God, nor anything like the OT God.

I mean that doesn't stop you from Cf'ing the two, its perfectly fine to do, but it deserves an asterisk.

 

[obsequious]

Don't forget Paul, who spread Christianity throughout Rome in the first place.

Hoorah.

Paul, without any doubt, is the most influential man in our limited scope of history. I will ignore those who wiped out smallpox, polio, etc etc. I will ignore Jesus (who did exist... there were books in many languages from all over the world of the time which mentioned the "miracle worker"... arguing that Jesus did not exist is like arguing that I am not a man. You don't know for fact, because I haven't beaten you about the face and neck with my appendage... but I am all the same.) I will ignore technology, and those who brought the devices with which we beat this same dead horse.

Christianity, at the moment, has the largest following... and that is due entirely to Paul.


Because you see, The apostle Paul, who never met Jesus... came about many years after is death... the mercenary Paul who saw Jesus in a vision...
"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee."
Deuteronomy 13

Paul went against most all Jesus said to make the religion "easier" and palatable to the masses. Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5

The revision of the strictures of Jesus' word was that which has made it the largest impact. Jesus said "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5 again.
The Pharisees, who subscribed to all 613 laws of Moses, not just the 10 commandments... not that that is change... cause that wasn't to happen... remember...


I could do this all day.


Ill sum up.

Paul brought tithing to the Church. Paul brought down the laws of Moses passed by God to a cleanly revised 10.

Paul the heretic made Christianity possible in our narcissistic society.


The apostle Paul brought you a kind gentle God from the vengeful, jealous, cruel one... and made it easy to join the club.

Paul is the most influential man in history.

The problem with debating the bible with me... is that I know it better than you. I was a true believer... which brought me to the conclusion that if Jesus was right... yer all fukt. Which is why you have priests and vicars and preachers to interpret it for you, rather than suggest you read the SINGLE source for your entire modality. The bible, not science, will turn you from its dogma. Nothing else.

(awaits gojira's reply)

Hi.

 

[obsequious]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls]Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Discovered in 1946 a whopping 2 books of 39 have been "translated" into English.

The rest?



I guess there just isn't enough interest in truth to rock the koolaid stand.

Go on. Read my shady wiki reference. It is crap.

"You can't handle the truth", as it flies directly in the face of what you believe. There will always be a reason you don't care about the dead sea scrolls.

 

[moe]

Hoorah.
I could do this all day.

And you would wrong all day long.

You quote Matt 5:8,

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Which is actually a prophecy. Was that prophecy fulfilled?

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

According to the gospel of Luke the prophecy of Matt 5:8 was fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ. If not one jot or one tittle has passed from the law then no Christian is saved by the blood Christ because the law requires the blood of animals for the forgiveness of sins. There is no provision in the law for a human sacrifice and in fact it is condemned by the Law.

Your condemnation of Paul is unjustified. People seem to think that Paul taught something new. Actually he did no such thing. In fact it was the original apostles and their original Jewish converts that were in the process of teaching something new.

The Gentile Proselytes of Judaism were never considered to be under the law of Moses nor were they required to be circumcised. The original Apostles and their Jewish converts believed that after the cross that this had changed and that the gentile converts were now bound by all 613 commandments of the Mosaic law and needed to be circumcised.

Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Ac 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Paul and Barnabas argued successfully to continue teaching the gentiles in the old manner. In Judaism the Gentile proselytes were not under the law of Moses but were bound by seven universal laws.

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws or Noachide Code, are a set of seven moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind.[1] According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven.[2] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]
Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and homosexual acts.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

Jewish circumcision is a ritual circumcision and it actually removes an extra layer of skin. So even if you were circumcised at birth you are still considered to be uncircumcised by Jewish law.

If you believe that not one jot or one tittle has passed from the law and you have not been circumcised in the Jewish manner then you need to be re circumcised by a mohel.

Paul took an old Jewish practice and applied it to his own method of preaching the Gospel to the gentiles with the full approval of the Apostles in Jerusalem. Everything Paul ever taught can be traced back to the Gospels and to the seven universal laws that apply to all Gentiles. Some scholars who dislike Paul claim that he does not actually quote the sayings of Christ. But neither do any of the other Apostolic writings in the NT. Not James, Not Peter, Not John, The entire gospel message whether to the Jew or the Gentile of the early church was focused on Christ risen.

Paul did not bring tithing to the church. It was an old testament practice.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If you condemn tithing then you are also condemning the ministry of Christ himself because he accepted tithes.

Lu 8:3 and Joanna the wife of Chuzas Herod`s steward, and Susanna, and many others, who ministered unto them of their substance.

How else can a ministry survive if no one is willing to support it with their tithes?

Moe

 

[First Thought]

Hoorah.

Paul, without any doubt, is the most influential man in our limited scope of history. I will ignore those who wiped out smallpox, polio, etc etc. I will ignore Jesus (who did exist... there were books in many languages from all over the world of the time which mentioned the "miracle worker"... arguing that Jesus did not exist is like arguing that I am not a man. You don't know for fact, because I haven't beaten you about the face and neck with my appendage... but I am all the same.) I will ignore technology, and those who brought the devices with which we beat this same dead horse.

Could you support this claim and post a list of all these "books in many different languages" that clearly talk about Christ?

 

[scourge99]

According to the gospel of Luke the prophecy of Matt 5:8 was fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ. If not one jot or one tittle has passed from the law then no Christian is saved by the blood Christ because the law requires the blood of animals for the forgiveness of sins. There is no provision in the law for a human sacrifice and in fact it is condemned by the Law.

Please provide some means of verifying that Jesus ( lets assume he existed in some manner) fulfilled the prophecies that Christians believe were in the OT.

Is our only evidence religious promotional material that seeks to confirm the very things it claims?

 

[1069]

Is it not immensely compelling to you that this poor Jew born in a barn under the thumb of mighty Rome is the most influential man to ever walk the earth? Does it not strike you that no king, scientist or other figure has had such an impact on history as this poor child raised by a carpenter?

I've never found any compelling evidence that Christ actually existed.
I mean, even as a historical personage, let alone a supernatural entity.

 

[scourge99]

I've never found any compelling evidence that Christ actually existed.
I mean, even as a historical personage, let alone a supernatural entity.

I think its reasonable to assume that there was an itinerant preacher named Jesus who taught the coming of the end of the world among other things. Beyond that I don't know. He fits the criteria of myth:

Lord' Raglan's Hero Pattern

The Hero Pattern

Incidents which occur with regularity in hero-myths of all cultures:

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Krishna (21) / Moses (20) / Romulus (19) / King Arthur (19) / Perseus (18) / Jesus (18) / Watu Gunung of Java (18) / Heracles (17) Mohammad (17) / Beowulf (15) / Buddha (15) / Zeus (14) / Nyikang, a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile (14) / Samson (13) / Sunjata, the Lion-King of Ancient Mali (11) / Achilles (10) / Odysseus (8) / Harry Potter (8) / Czar Nicholas II (14) / Mithradates VI of Pontus (22)

 

[MC.no.spin]

Al Gore. Just ask him.

 

[Hatuey]

Isabella I of Castile.