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Is Islam a Religion of Peace?

Is Islam a Religion of Peace?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 32.3%
  • No

    Votes: 42 67.7%

  • Total voters
    62
Nobody but you is doing that Dixon :lol:

????? You cant comprehend what I am doing. Islam is a religious doctrine. Muslims are a group of people. My position is precisely the opposite of what you have imagined.
 
That must be the disconnect. I still have not figured out how some of these guys are separating the religion from the religious texts and the devout actions of its followers.

They are using some alternative definition. It may have not been posted yet.

And yet, the first thing the do to defend Islam is to quote old testament bible verses and point to the crusades?????????? WTF???
 
Stoned

"Stoned"
Islam is NOT currently a religion of peace. The way it is currently practiced in many parts of the world today makes it impossible for it to be a religion of peace. The attitudes towards women that practicing Islamic societies hold are not peaceful. The idea that we should be governed by Islam is not peaceful. Most subscribers to Christianity aren't all that devout. Islam's problem is that many of it's followers are completely devout. That simply doesn't mesh well with the modern world. In our own country and world wide Islam tends to be adopted by the poor and disenfranchised. Not a good combination. Religion, desperation, and anger don't make good bedfellows.
:good_job: nifty drifts straight past anything of substance, as if the practices were neither the aspirations of the religion nor designed into it.
 
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Dixon
Are you trying to argue that the written doctrine is not a part of the religion?

Bodhisattva
Nobody but you is doing that Dixon

Dixon
????? You cant comprehend what I am doing. Islam is a religious doctrine. Muslims are a group of people. My position is precisely the opposite of what you have imagined.

I am not sure that you yet realize how simple you are Dixon.
I have imagined nothing
I just turn your feeble ideas around on you by displaying your lack of logic

Christianity is a Religious Doctrine as well.

I have presented you with specific aspects regarding the inherent violence of Christianity in an effort to illuminate your hypocrisy to you...
But what do you do? You argue that the written doctrine is not a part of the religious argument by disclaiming it's validity to your ridiculous assertion.

I don't expect you to understand how much smarter I am than you...
I do expect you to be able to communicate in simple English though...

You fail miserably at that, as evidenced by the whole Is/Same debate that I smoked you on.

Examples of religious doctrines include:

Christian Trinity and virgin birth
Roman Catholic transubstantiation and immaculate conception
Calvinist predestination
Methodist Prevenient Grace
Jainism The Doctrine of Postulation or Syādvāda[1]
One department of the Roman Curia is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.


Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both Religions have violence written into them
You choose to accept the violence of Islam and to Forget the violence of Christianity
I presented this evidence clearly, yet you choose to ignore it.

It is more accurate to say that you are not entirely sure about how to present a concrete case regarding what you have "imagined", so instead you ignore evidence presented to you that blows your sophmoric ideas out of the water.

You are as simple as it gets Dixon
 
Originally Posted by akyron
That must be the disconnect. I still have not figured out how some of these guys are separating the religion from the religious texts and the devout actions of its followers.

Who is seperating?
The Religious Texts dictate the Religion.
The Religion is followed by the devout.
The devout actions reflect the Religous Texts.

The Radical Islamic Terrorists of today are pieces of shit.
They have taken the violent aspects of Islam and they are using those to further their cause.
What is so hard to understand about that? :lol:

Dixon just doesn't like, and perhaps you are of the same simple mindset, that I point out that the Crusades, The Inquisition, The Slaughter of Millions of Native Americans and African Slaves, the KKK etc etc are done by Christians that have taken the violent aspects of Christianity and they are using those to further their cause as well.

It is really fairly simple.

Does Jesus also teach, and mostly teach, Peace? Sure.
But Islam also has teachings about Peace.

You guys just seem to want a black and white GW "Axis of Evil" kinda world...kinda lame if you ask a normal intelligent person.

:2wave:
 
Who is seperating?
The Religious Texts dictate the Religion.
The Religion is followed by the devout.
The devout actions reflect the Religous Texts.
:

Thank you! Finally a realist.

The Radical Islamic Terrorists of today are pieces of shit.
They have taken the violent aspects of Islam and they are using those to further their cause.
What is so hard to understand about that? :lol:
:
I can dig that too. It would not be nearly so easy to do if it was not both advocated and supported (to greater and lesser degrees) by both the religious texts and the general populace following those texts.

Dixon just doesn't like, and perhaps you are of the same simple mindset, that I point out that the Crusades, The Inquisition,
It is really fairly simple.
:
I like it. Its funny. It speaks highly of your imagination as well.

How (or even why) are you attempting to glue together some violence that happened in the 12th-13th century with the 9 islamic terrorist incidents that have happened in the last 18 days of 2008?



January 1 2 0 Khartoum. John Granville, a diplomat with the United States Agency for International Development and his local driver are killed by a group calling itself Ansar al-Tawhid.[1]
January 5 ~5 70 Diyarbakir. Turkish authorities said they suspected PKK militants to be behind the car bomb explosion.[2]
January 7 ~19 ~50 Baghdad. Six bombings.[3]
January 10 ~23 ~58 Lahore. One suicide bomber blow himself in a police crowd.[4]
January 13 2 ~5 Rangoon. A bomb exploded in a public toilet in a Rangoon railway station, injuring one woman. This was the third bombing incident in three day. One other took place on Friday, in a railway station toilet in Nay Pyi Taw, killing one woman. Another man died, and four people were injured, when a bomb exploded in Pyu, north of Rangoon.[5]
January 14 11 ~55 Karachi. A bomb exploded in Karachi during President Pervez Musharraf's visit.[6]
January 14 ~6 ~6 Kabul. A suicide bomber kills six at the Kabul Serena Hotel.[7]
January 15 3 ~22 Beirut. A bomb targeting a US Embassy vehicle detonates, killing bystanders and injuring the occupants.[8]
January 15 0 ~39 South Thailand. Suspected islamist separatist bombed a market.[9]
January 16 32 62 Buttala: Tamil Tiger rebels bombed a civilian bus, gunned down the fleeing passengers and attacked farmers as they retreated into the bush, killing 32 people.[10]
January 16 9 6 Khan Bani Saad: A woman wearing a vest lined with explosives blew herself up near Shiite worshippers in turbulent Diyala province north of the capital Wednesday, killing nine of them.[11]
January 18 4 4 Template:Flag icon Hadhramaut Governorate. Gunmen opened fire on a group of tourists, killing two Belgian women, their Yemeni driver and a Yemeni man believed to be a tourist guide. Belgian tourist and a Yemeni were wounded in the incident. Al-Qaida suspected.[12]

:2wave:
 
And yet, the first thing the do to defend Islam is to quote old testament bible verses and point to the crusades?????????? WTF???

images


It is quite the stretch.
 
akyron
How (or even why) are you attempting to glue together some violence that happened in the 12th-13th century with the 9 islamic terrorist incidents that have happened in the last 18 days of 2008?

No sweat.
It is all good. :2razz:

Why? Dixon challenged my statement that it was the people that were violent and not the religion that is violent since both religions have aspects of peace in them... it is incumbent upon the PEOPLE to choose to be violent.

It is not like the religion preaches ONLY violence.
If that was the case then it would be the religion that was violent.

I point out the Crusades because Dixon said that Christianity is all Peace and that Islam is about violence. If there is violence and peace in BOTH, then that is hypocritical of him to declare so. It is blinded and biased.

I think that the christianity was extremely violent and extremely intolerant in the past and Radical Islam is extremely violent and extremely intolerant NOW.

But it is ignorant to forget the past just so you can make a point about what you don't like now.

I think that African Slave Traders were terrorists just as the KKK...
But yeah, now it is the freaking dirtbag terrorists killing innocent people and that is unacceptable.
 
Originally Posted by dixon76710
Well, I look at the actions of Al Qaeda and say that it involves no peace whatsoever.......... or would you argue they are not Muslims?..........or would you argue they are not a sufficient portion of all Muslims, therefore their doctrine shall be immune from criticism? Must we reach 51% Islamist Fundamentalist before the doctrine is subject to criticism? Now take your attitude, multiply it by about a thousand, and thats what you have in Muslims nations. The doctrine is immune from critical analysis. ................

I really don't know how these suppositions are germaine to what I have written. I have been clear in my posts and stated I believe to truly judge islam, either AS a violent religion or not, we must look at the actions of believers of this religion. I also clearly defined that I believe islam is THE most violent of religions today. How more clearly can I state my position.

Here's a little advice. Try to read others postings in context and with less judgemental attitude and obvious penchant for argumentation. I believe you will find the discussion will progress nicely and understanding and respect will be reached by all concerned.
 
rsixing
Here's a little advice. Try to read others postings in context and with less judgemental attitude and obvious penchant for argumentation. I believe you will find the discussion will progress nicely and understanding and respect will be reached by all concerned.

Dixon take advice and admit that he is fallible? :lol:
That would ruin his delusions of granger

:lol:
 
Islam is NOT currently a religion of peace. The way it is currently practiced in many parts of the world today makes it impossible for it to be a religion of peace. The attitudes towards women that practicing Islamic societies hold are not peaceful. The idea that we should be governed by Islam is not peaceful. Most subscribers to Christianity aren't all that devout. Islam's problem is that many of it's followers are completely devout. That simply doesn't mesh well with the modern world. In our own country and world wide Islam tends to be adopted by the poor and disenfranchised. Not a good combination. Religion, desperation, and anger don't make good bedfellows.

It floors me why more people haven't responded to this post.
I guess the truth hurts.....:roll:

Good job talloulou...
 
Dixon take advice and admit that he is fallible? :lol:
That would ruin his delusions of granger

:lol:

LOL...you know I took advice once and I found out it actually didn't hurt at all. ;)
 
January 1 2 0 Khartoum. John Granville, a diplomat with the United States Agency for International Development and his local driver are killed by a group calling itself Ansar al-Tawhid.[1]
January 5 ~5 70 Diyarbakir. Turkish authorities said they suspected PKK militants to be behind the car bomb explosion.[2]
January 7 ~19 ~50 Baghdad. Six bombings.[3]
January 10 ~23 ~58 Lahore. One suicide bomber blow himself in a police crowd.[4]
January 13 2 ~5 Rangoon. A bomb exploded in a public toilet in a Rangoon railway station, injuring one woman. This was the third bombing incident in three day. One other took place on Friday, in a railway station toilet in Nay Pyi Taw, killing one woman. Another man died, and four people were injured, when a bomb exploded in Pyu, north of Rangoon.[5]
January 14 11 ~55 Karachi. A bomb exploded in Karachi during President Pervez Musharraf's visit.[6]
January 14 ~6 ~6 Kabul. A suicide bomber kills six at the Kabul Serena Hotel.[7]
January 15 3 ~22 Beirut. A bomb targeting a US Embassy vehicle detonates, killing bystanders and injuring the occupants.[8]
January 15 0 ~39 South Thailand. Suspected islamist separatist bombed a market.[9]
January 16 32 62 Buttala: Tamil Tiger rebels bombed a civilian bus, gunned down the fleeing passengers and attacked farmers as they retreated into the bush, killing 32 people.[10]
January 16 9 6 Khan Bani Saad: A woman wearing a vest lined with explosives blew herself up near Shiite worshippers in turbulent Diyala province north of the capital Wednesday, killing nine of them.[11]
January 18 4 4 Template:Flag icon Hadhramaut Governorate. Gunmen opened fire on a group of tourists, killing two Belgian women, their Yemeni driver and a Yemeni man believed to be a tourist guide. Belgian tourist and a Yemeni were wounded in the incident. Al-Qaida suspected.[12]

:2wave:

all i have to do to refute posts anymore is to refer y'all to stuff I've already posted in this thread.

New Poll of Islamic World Says Most Muslims Reject Terrorism

Large and Growing Numbers of Muslims Reject Terrorism, Bin Laden

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam


Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam

Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism)

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings

Islam and the Question of Violence

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians

Muslim Attitudes about Violence

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism

Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law



ahem, only a complete dipshit would say that a post such as this, lacks any substance. what if I were to make massive generalizations about 1.6 billion-plus people, pretending that the entire population were homogenous, without any supporting evidence? ->

talloulou said:
Islam is NOT currently a religion of peace. The way it is currently practiced in many parts of the world today makes it impossible for it to be a religion of peace. The attitudes towards women that practicing Islamic societies hold are not peaceful. The idea that we should be governed by Islam is not peaceful. Most subscribers to Christianity aren't all that devout. Islam's problem is that many of it's followers are completely devout. That simply doesn't mesh well with the modern world. In our own country and world wide Islam tends to be adopted by the poor and disenfranchised. Not a good combination. Religion, desperation, and anger don't make good bedfellows.

There's no there, there. nothing to refute. no evidence, no examples. no clue.

I suppose monkeye finds this substantial?
 
Is Islam a religion of peace? It depends on what we mean by peace vs what devout practicing muslims mean by peace. More importantly, don't assume muslims and non-muslims think alike. Don't assume we all have the same moral reasoning. So, what is the thinking process of muslims like?

Take a peep at the moral reasoning of an imam from 21st Century computer age Ask-Imam.com:

Ask-Imam.com [10896] Recently I saw a question on the status of women taken as prisoners during Jihad.

Question 10896 from United Kingdom

Recently I saw a question on the status of women taken as prisoners during Jihad.

Could you please clarify the points below?

1. Dont you think sex without marriage is a disgrace to that particular woman? Please give a detailed reply to this point as to why sex is allowed without marriage.

2. What is the status of the child born through this relationship? And if it comes to the knowledge of the male that his slave is pregnant then should he marry her immediately? Can he leave her if he wants to?

3. To what sort of women does this rule apply. I mean can they be ordinary citizens (mothers/sisters/wives of men) of any city Muslims capture or they must have taken part in the battle against Muslims so that this rule may apply to them.

4. What treatment do women captured get if they are already married and there husbands are taken prisoners and are yet alive. Are they also subject to the same treatment above?What if there husbands have died in the fight. Are they restricted to the "Iddat" period before they are available for sex or are they refrained form doing so for that period?

5.I understand that these women may necessarily not be used as sex objects but since this is allowed I cant help thinking of the fact that if a Muslim haves sex with a women for days or months and then just leaves her off she is a prostitute who has filled the desire of an unknown man willingly or unwillingly. Don’t you think so? I’m confused please help

ANSWER:
Firstly, it should be borne in mind that slavery was not something that was introduced by Islam; on the contrary, it was something that had its roots planted long before the advent of Islam. It would not be an exaggeration to state that slavery is probably as old as war itself, because it is one of the consequences of war. Thus, slavery apparently first reared its head with the first wars that took place on the face of earth. War is a factor that makes soft men stern, kind men harsh and delicate men rugged. A man who cannot bear to see the sight of blood under normal circumstances becomes capable of shedding the blood of hundreds under the pressure of war. Those who were not killed in warfare, used to be taken as prisoners of war. The pages of history will show that many alternative, expedient methods were used through the ages to deal with prisoners of war. Some used to be executed while others would be set free, with or without a ransom. Then, there were others who were neither executed nor set free. These were enslaved.

When Islam came and prospered, its power was challenged by the enemies of Islam and the need to go to war arose. By that time, slavery had virtually become an international custom. It was also rife among the Arabs from the days of darkness and ignorance. Thus, abolishing it instantaneously would have caused chaos and pandemonium among the Arab people. Hence, a process of gradual extirpation had to be implemented. Moreover, if the Muslims would set all their enemy-prisoners free and tolerate their fellow Muslims being captured and enslaved by the enemies, it would have lead to a sharp decrease in the Muslim military force and given a great advantage to the enemy forces which was something that the Muslims could not afford. Furthermore, it is a well known fact that warfare tactics used by one side are often countered by the opposing side in order to maintain a balance of power. Hence, wartime diplomacy necessitated the enslaving of prisoners.

In the "Jihads" (Islamic wars) that took place, women were also, at times, taken as prisoners of war by the Muslim warriors. These women captives used to be distributed as part of the booty among the soldiers, after their return to Islamic territory. Each soldier was then entitled to have relations ONLY with the slave girl over whom he was given the RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP and NOT with those slave girls that were not in his possession. This RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP was given to him by the "Ameerul-Mu'mineen" (Head of the Islamic state.) Due to this right of ownership, it became lawful for the owner of a slave girl to have intercourse with her.

It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a woman who is not a man's legal wife, but once Shariah makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not. It is necessary for a Muslim to be acquainted with the laws of Shariah, but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension.

Allah Ta'ala has said in the Holy Quraan: "Wa maa ooteetum min al-ilm illaa qaleelan" which means, more or less, that, "You have been given a very small portion of knowledge".

Hence, if a person fails to comprehend the underlying wisdom of any law of Shariah, he cannot regard it as a fault of Shariah (Allah forbid), on the contrary, it is the fault of his own perception and lack of understanding, because no law of Shariah is contradictory to wisdom.

Nevertheless, the wisdom underlying the permission granted by Shariah to copulate with a slave woman is as follows: The LEGAL possession that a Muslim receives over a slave woman from the "Ameerul-Mu'mineen" (the Islamic Head of State) gives him legal credence to have coition with the slave woman in his possession, just as the marriage ceremony gives him legal credence to have coition with his wife. In other words, this LEGAL POSSESSION is, in effect, a SUBSTITUTE of the MARRIAGE CEREMONY. A free woman cannot be 'possessed', bought or sold like other possessions; therefore Shariah instituted a 'marriage ceremony' in which affirmation and consent takes place, which gives a man the right to copulate with her. On the other hand, a slave girl can be possessed and even bought and sold, thus, this right of possession, substituting as a marriage ceremony, entitles the owner to copulate with her. A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals; that after a formal slaughtering process, in which the words, "Bismillahi Allahu Akbar" are recited, goats, cows, etc.; become "Halaal" and lawful for consumption, whereas fish becomes "Halaal" merely through 'possession' which substitutes for the slaughtering.

In other words, just as legal possession of a fish that has been fished out of the water, makes it Halaal for human consumption without the initiation of a formal slaughtering process; similarly legal possession of a slave woman made her Halaal for the purpose of coition with her owner without the initiation of a formal marriage ceremony.

In short, permission to have intercourse with a slave woman was not something barbaric or uncivilised; on the contrary, it was almost as good as a marriage ceremony. In fact, possession of a slave woman resembles a marriage ceremony in many ways and both have a lot in common with each other. <snip>
So, there you have it. This is the religion of peace with its self-confessed roots from ancient tribal barbarism that was transplanted into the religion of peace by the islamic prophet in the advent of Islam. Or so he claimed. More likely it was the other way around according to islam's own recorded history.

The imam claimed that abolishing slavery instantaneously would have caused chaos and pandemonium among the Arab people and that it would have lead to a sharp decrease in the muslim military force and given a great advantage to the enemy forces which was something that the muslims could not afford.

I guess the Allied forces in WWII was wrong to release the Jews from nazi concentration camps immediately against the islamic divine wisdom. No wonder it caused such a chaos and pandemonium among the non-nazi European and American people.

This is what islamic apologists should expect for their mothers, wives, daughters and grand-daughters from the courtesy of 7th century islamic wisdom in the event of 21st century jihadist conquest. Afterall, possession alone is like a halaal fish or slaughtered animals that are made good. In a weird way, that's how muslims could interpret what is meant by peace.
 
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Bad Jokes

"Bad Jokes"
all i have to do to refute posts anymore is to refer y'all to stuff I've already posted in this thread.
New Poll of Islamic World Says Most Muslims Reject Terrorism Large and Growing Numbers of Muslims Reject Terrorism, Bin Laden

Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam
Defending the Civilians (a fatwa against terrorism)
Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings
Islam and the Question of Violence
Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians
Muslim Attitudes about Violence
Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism
Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism
Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law

ahem, only a complete dipshit would say that a post such as this, lacks any substance. what if I were to make massive generalizations about 1.6 billion-plus people, pretending that the entire population were homogenous, without any supporting evidence? ->

There's no there, there. nothing to refute. no evidence, no examples. no clue. I suppose monkeye finds this substantial?
I do not find it substantial.
The only peace mentioned was meandering thoughts about gardens, after arabism haf established order in some sort of fung shway hijack.
Otherwise, the links convey nothing other than retaliatory justification.
That is, terrorism is always queried with respect to innocents; however, the notations are forthright in explaining that arabism reserves the liberty to defend its ideologies with violence against any society that is not consistent with sharia law.
Thus, unless one is adhering to the specific questions about terrorism and justified violence, then liars walk free.

For an example given, having historically succumbed to conversion by force, modern Egypt requires one's religious affiliation be registered with the government.
Only the three abrahamic religions are sanctioned and non-arabism faiths are dhimmi taxed and quashed.
The bahia faith, hinduism, or other "pagan" faiths are not even allowed.
This is arabism's ambition, that is its virtue for justice - agression (guised as retaliation) until complicity.

After mohammad's death, the true essence of arabism as a faith system for arabs only (as is israelism for israelis) was perverted.
Genetic suvival of arabs is the purpose of arabism, there is nothing that can be said or done to change that precept.
Any non-arab that practices arabism, prostrating themselves towards mecca in arabia, and does not recognize that they are self-depricating themselves before arabs is a fool.
Ultimately, as long as arabism is not resigned to arabia and commits itself to the perverse notion that the entire world must adhere to its tenets then, it is sworn to agression and ultimately to violence - it is unpeaceful.
 
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I am not sure that you yet realize how simple you are Dixon.
I have imagined nothing
I just turn your feeble ideas around on you by displaying your lack of logic

Christianity is a Religious Doctrine as well.

I have presented you with specific aspects regarding the inherent violence of Christianity in an effort to illuminate your hypocrisy to you...
But what do you do? You argue that the written doctrine is not a part of the religious argument by disclaiming it's validity to your ridiculous assertion.

I never said anything about "violence". I said

Christianity is all turn the other cheek..., do unto others... and render unto Ceasar etc. Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about.

and I never disclaimed the "validity" of the Christian verses, I showed that they dont "have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about."

Here are a few lines from the Bible contradicting your assertions.
(Exodus 22:19 NAB)...(Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)...(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)...
(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)...(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)...(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)...(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)...(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Old testament, Christians have the New. Romans 1:24? God didnt tell the believers to slay the homosexuals where you find them in Sodom and Gomorrah, god did it with fire and brimstone or something. If you were to blame christian doctrine for the anti homosexual bias, I couldnt disagree.


I can provide many many MANY verses from the New Testament.

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus didnt come to change the laws or what the prophets had prophecized. He is a part of that law and prophecies."My kingdom is not of this world". What laws the jews applied at that time are not his domain. And when you do break the laws-

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

as opposed to having your hand cut off or some such nonsense. Hey look a little further down.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Like I said, Christianity is "all turn the other cheek".

Matthew 10:21 Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death

???? He is warning the twelve disciples. The next verse,

22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

As long as Jesus has the sword, until he comes back it shouldnt be a concern.

11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Yeah, when you die you go to hell if your bad. An issue for the dead, we are among the living.


25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The "Parable of the Talents". Its a story not a commandment. I have no idea what it means and Im not aware of any christians casting out servants.

18:8-9 If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee .... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

If we had christians cutting off their hands and feet. I would be critical of the doctrine that leads people to do so. Just as I am critical of Islamic doctrine used to justify the cutting off of others hands and feet.


27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

The jews refering to jesus who was to be put to death. It was an event in Jesus' life not a commandment for christians.

16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

For the dead, we are the living.

7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

??? Im not sure why you even included that? Really not sure why you included any of them. Like I said

Christianity is all turn the other cheek..., do unto others... and render unto Ceasar etc. Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about.

Certainly dont see anything youve presented here that indicates otherwise. Christianity doesnt demand a religious government applying religious law and certainly no warfare to bring it about.

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world...
Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.

do unto others and turn the other cheek as opposed to "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you" , "slay" and "smite the necks"

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah...

2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

[2.244] And fight in the way of Allah,...

[2.246] ...May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain;

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them,

48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.

BibleGateway.com - Version information: New International Version
The Koran -- Browse
 
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Convinced yourself yet Dixon?

Yes?

Good.

Now...do you pay attention at the time you are reading?

1. I talked about violence initially, I never said that it was you.
2. It was never once my contention to show that Christianity DID "have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about."
3. It was never once my contention to show that the two were balanced in terms of violence...but you sure think that makes a difference, don't you?
4. You did "disclaim it's validity to your ridiculous assertion" though, and what is really funny is that you still don't seem to understand that you challenged my statement and then turned it around and indicated that it was I that had to contend with your assertions, and not the other way around.
5. Go ahead and throw out whatever you like... sure.. go on! :lol:
6. You don't see what you don't want to see and that is about as plain as it gets....

7. My initial point... and a point that is irrefutable was and still is

It is not the religion that is violent (for a religion without people is nothing but words)
It is THE PEOPLE THAT ARE VIOLENT

Akryon seemed to get it.
Most people seem to get it
Why don't you Dixon?

Don't think about it man...
Just don't see anything again and convince yourself that you are really an open minded
:2wave:
 
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Convinced yourself yet Dixon?
Yes?
Good.
Now...do you pay attention at the time you are reading?

Didnt even read it did you? Yes I do pay attention.

1. I talked about violence initially, I never said that it was you.

Sooo why the biblical verses and claims of "violent" and "hateful aspects" of christianity in response to my assertions?

2. It was never once my contention to show that Christianity DID "have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about."

So why all the biblical verses in response to my assertion that

Christianity is all turn the other cheek..., do unto others... and render unto Ceasar etc. Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about.

proclaiming them to be "contradicting your assertions"?

3. It was never once my contention to show that the two were balanced in terms of violence...but you sure think that makes a difference, don't you?


Christianity, Old and New is about killing as much as any person could hope for...

That's Right! It was kill Protestants... kill Catholics... kill Jews... Kill Gypsies... Kill Muslims... kill Native America Heathens.

Kill Kill Kill Kill

Here are a few lines from the Bible contradicting your assertions.

I was never this harsh regarding Islam. I assumed you were trying to argue that Christianity was heavier with "violence

4. ... what is really funny is that you still don't seem to understand that you challenged my statement and then turned it around and indicated that it was I that had to contend with your assertions, and not the other way around.

Dude, two sentences.

Christianity is all turn the other cheek..., do unto others... and render unto Ceasar etc. Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about.

Where's the challenge? Not a word about your "peaceful and hateful aspects" of religion. Simply my claim that Christianity doesnt have "the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about."
YOU were the one "challenging"-

Here are a few lines from the Bible contradicting your assertions.

I can provide many many MANY verses from the New Testament.
I provided 7 versus from the Old Testament

So again...this ridiculous assertion:

Quote:
Dixon
Christianity is all turn the other cheek..., do unto others... and render unto Ceasar etc. Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about.


Is INCORRECT :lol:

So yes, as opposed to me copying and pasting the entire bible to show that "Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that..."
I expected you to show the verses that show that it does contain such aspects.


5. Go ahead and throw out whatever you like... sure.. go on! :lol:

A bonobo IS a chimp and homosexuals can be pedophiles.
 
Matthew 10:21 Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death

Indicating that the horribly violent and destructive Old Testament is completely valid and to be accerpted!

I believe this is the fourth time this verse has been posted and will be the fourth time I responded. Why not address my responses, instead of simply posting the claim over and over? It is indicating no such thing. He is warning the twelve disciples of what will happen. Its a prophecy.

1He called his twelve disciples to him ...5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions...17"Be on your guard against men;...18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings...21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me,

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.
 
Semantic Hostility

"Semantic Hostility"
7. My initial point... and a point that is irrefutable was and still is
It is not the religion that is violent (for a religion without people is nothing but words) It is THE PEOPLE THAT ARE VIOLENT
Most people seem to get it Why don't you Dixon?
That is like saying guns don't kill people, people kill people.

A similar reference is to the Jihad bis Saif - Sword of Jihad
Objectives of warfare
According to verses [Qur'an 2:190], the Qur'an implies two objectives:[78]
1. Uproot fitnah (فتنة) or persecution
2. Establish supremacy of Islam in the world

By analogy, the nonsense of your "irrefutable" premise is that a gun or a sword does not imply the second clause for war, but the religion of arabism does imply it.

If one were to state that weilding a gun or sword is analogous to weilding religion, such that at times both have the purpose of violence, that is not what you have premised in the referenced quote.
 
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I think that the christianity was extremely violent and extremely intolerant in the past and Radical Islam is extremely violent and extremely intolerant NOW.

But yeah, now it is the freaking dirtbag terrorists killing innocent people and that is unacceptable.

Well we are on the same page for the most part then.
I just dont see how your initial point is not germain to the discussion at hand.
What do the mistakes of one religion 800 years ago have to do with the attempted suicide bombings of today? With respect the all or nothing references you have attempted to point to so far are neither accurate or believable.

Nothing is completely black or white and attempting to make it so is not realistic. References to all the christians or all the muslims are not very believable or accurate. I realize I let myself get drawn into niftys extremists view arguments (it was fun anyway) when I have already clearly stated my view previously.


Most people are not all on the same page and can be divided into completely separate groups.
As far as muslims and jihadists go.....
The "good" muslims who refuse to jihad simply are not very good at their practiced religion. (according to the jihadists)
We want more of these. modernists like fruit20

The jihadists are the "good" muslims in the sense they are good at practicing their religion of choice. These are the ones that end up wearing a bomb vest.
classics like old style coca-cola.

The word used to define (by jihadists and the various holy books) "good peaceful" muslims is hypocrites. They are defined that way because they are attempting to guilt trip the modernists to stand with the traditionalists and sometimes it works. It works because they can point to the holy books and say "see?? Im right and you are wrong. Come fight the infidels at my side" and many do.

The religion may be just a bunch of words to you but to them it is generations of upbringing and education designed to separate and control.

It is the many in between that we need to pursue politically and socially so they stop openly or tacitly supporting jihad. I am not saying ALL are supporting jihad but the ones that are need to be addressed.

Terrorism can be addressed and can be stopped. It happens every day.

Chicago Man Planned to Blow Up Mall.
"Derrick Shareef, 22, of Rockford, was arrested Wednesday "
"he wanted to commit acts of violent jihad against targets in the United States"

He may not have 70 virgins waiting for him for awhile but he just made 70 guys in the marion prison very happy.
 
I point out the Crusades because Dixon said that Christianity is all Peace and that Islam is about violence. If there is violence and peace in BOTH, then that is hypocritical of him to declare so. It is blinded and biased.

The crusades were violence committed by Christians. Christians are a group of people. Christianity is a doctrine. Violence recounted in a historical event, violence within a hypothetical parable, and violence within a prophecy doesnt direct Christians to commit violence. On the other hand Islam is clear in its directions to the believers to commit violence.

Really dont understand the lefts desire to defend doctrine such as this.

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah...

2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

[2.244] And fight in the way of Allah,...

[2.246] ...May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain;

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them,

48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.
 
I think that the christianity was extremely violent and extremely intolerant in the past

"Christianity", the doctrine, has remained the same since whats his name picked the books to be in the bible. At that time, nobody could read the Bible exxcept the clergy. Christianity became a relationship between the individual and the church. Christian doctrine became what the catholic church said was doctrine. They fabricated a divine authority for Monarchs to rule, to whomever the church ordained with that authority. It was CATHOLIC doctrine, not christian.
Any way, printing press is invented, people learn how to read the bible, the reformation first took that authority from the catholic church, to create new churches to ordain monarchs with gods authority to rule. And then the final expression of true, written, christian doctrine as it relates to gods authority to rule over men, and the "separation" of that authority from the church...

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

Gods authority to rule was finally returned to the individual where it belonged all along. If people believe god has granted authority to some monarch to rule over them, they will fight to maintain that authority when challenged by someone without gods authority.


and Radical Islam is extremely violent and extremely intolerant NOW.
But it is ignorant to forget the past just so you can make a point about what you don't like now.

You do realize that from 632-1924, the Islamic Caliphate ruled over most Muslims under the authority of Islamic doctrine. Mohammed fought to establish it, those who followed fought to expand its authority, and those who followed fought to maintain it up until the end in 1924. The Ikhwan in Saudi Arabia fought to reinstate it in the second half of the 1920s. The Muslim Brotherhood in 1928 declared

The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope....

The Islamic creed and Shari`ah have ruled over the individual and society, the ruler and the ruled. They have had supreme authority and neither a ruler nor a ruled people could change anything they contained...

1-The introduction of the Islamic Shari`ah as the basis controlling the affairs of state and society...
http://www.muslimbrotherhood.co.uk/Home.asp?zPage=Systems&System=PressR&Press=Show&Lang=E&ID=4584

Groups such as Alqaeda are simply a continuation of this same ideology. The same ideology that has been used since 632. Within a couple hundred years they had the doctrine codified in the written koran and hadiths and they remain the same today. 64 verses regarding the "fight" in the koran
The Koran

46 references to "jihad"

"What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

in the Bukhari hadiths. It is ignorant to forget the past just so you can make a point about what you don't like now.
 
This is the pitfall I have observed when comparing the "doctrine" of one religion as the base for argument against another religion. Any one person can interpret a text (as in the Bible, Qu'ran, etc.) by reading into it one's own ideas (eisegesis). This whole debate over islam vs. Christianity doctrine, which religion HAS committed evils in the name of their god based on their "doctrine", to me is simply finger pointing and failure to look, without bias, at how we should judge any one religion. Sometimes it is done to provoke, other times it is just poor debating method and to the best of my knowledge this poll and debate was NOT about comparative religions.

This poll and debate was about islam. When some posters respond with reasonable, intelligent discourse which does not satisfy another party (or their desire to control the direction of the discussion) that too falls short of reasonable debate and in itself causes degradation of the discussion.

We should all be able to read another's opinion, weight it against our own, and if their opine is found to have definable, reasonable logic which may address a topic from a perspective we have either ignored or discarded, it is not dishonorable to admit we have a self-motivating agenda and are simply being argumentative to be argumentative.

Just my opinion of course and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of DPF.
 
So Dixon...

I am not interested in bantering with you any longer over this issue...

Sooo why the biblical verses and claims of "violent" and "hateful aspects" of christianity in response to my assertions?

I was not responding to you.
I was initially just making a statement to all.

You responded to my statement:

It is not religion that is violent
It is the people that are violent

With...

Christianity is all turn the other cheek..., do unto others... and render unto Ceasar etc. Christianity simply doesnt have the aspects found in Islam that call for an Islamic government applying Islamic law, and the methods of warfare to bring it about.

Isn't this a response?
Is this not a "challenge"

chal·lenge /ˈtʃælɪndʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[chal-inj] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -lenged, -leng·ing, adjective
–noun 1. a call or summons to engage in any contest, as of skill, strength, etc.

Yes...it is. Two lines or fifty. So what? That is irrelevant.
The challenge is that you quoted me and responded to me indicating that you felt that Christianity is "turn the other cheek" while Islam is violent regarding my comments that "it is not the religion that is violent"

If it is not the religion, according to me, and it is the people...
and you respond with the people of Chritianity are all "turn the other cheek" then you are clearly indicating that you think that my statement was incorrect and that is the "challenge". It is just a "challenge". It is not life and death that I am talking about. It is not anything other than a little challenge of words and such... don't make my claim that it was a challenge from you bigger than what it really is.

You challenged me.

I did not respond to you
I did not quote you.
I made a statement

YOU responded to me with my quotes and a challenge.
YOU made a claim that I was incorrect and that Islam is in fact violent while Christianity is "turn the other cheek"

So why all the biblical verses in response to my assertion that

Simply to show that Christianity is NOT all "turn the other cheek"
It isn't
I made my point.

My point was to show that people are violent in most major religions and that scriptures include and justify violence.
You want to pick and choose Old Test. and New Test to justify your decision that Islam is violent and Christianity is not. Do whatever you like. It does not make it so.

I was never this harsh regarding Islam. I assumed you were trying to argue that Christianity was heavier with "violence

I think that they are EQUALLY violent becaue the PEOPLE of the religion chose to be violent in the name of their religion and their religious leaders justified their actions in the name of their god.

This was my initial point and my point with just about every post since.

Bodi
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

This statement is a qualifying statement that indicates that the Old Testament IS relevant. Again, you want to throw it out like most people so that it helps your position. Can't do that my friend. At least you can't do that and be honest and truthful and ultimately correct.

Dixon
Really dont understand the lefts desire to defend doctrine such as this.

Who is in the left in this statement? Are you indicating that I am Left Wing? Why would you assume that?

I really don't feel like bantering any longer about who challanged whom and why that actually makes a difference regarding how then the burden is upon you to make a valid point in response to mine and then to defend it while picking me apart... rather than to keep saying that I need to prove you wrong and such.

Why don't you just dictate your point to all and be done with it then? ;)

The floor is yours. Rip it up!
 
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