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Is Iraq Better Or Worse Since the Invasion?

Republican party = Nazi party, Neo-cons = the real Nazis

Bush = Adolf Hitler.
Rice = Heinrich Himmler
Chaney/Rove = Goebbels.
Rumsfeld = Hermann Göring

I certainly do not agree with many of the policies of the Bush Administration, and I have stated that some of their policies are similar to those employed by the nazis and other totalitarian regimes.

But to assert they are equivalent as you do is beyond inane.
 
I certainly do not agree with many of the policies of the Bush Administration, and I have stated that some of their policies are similar to those employed by the nazis and other totalitarian regimes.

But to assert they are equivalent as you do is beyond inane.

I am not saying the US is targeting gays or jews, but they might be targetting muslims in general. The methods of the Bush administration resembles that of Nazi Germany in many ways, especially how they get people to agree with the through propaganda, and how they have kept a whole nation ignorant about their REAL goals.

Its scary to see from the outside how many Americans seem like brainwashed zoombies that only think about what their government "force3 them to think about. I have nothing else to compare this to than Nazi Germany.

I just have no comprehension about how any decent human being can defend the Iraq war and its massive spending when perhaps as much as a billion people live in constant starvation, curable illnesses lack of water and malnutrition.


The money spent on Iraq would have been enough to deal with those problems for decades on a massive scale. Yet some people, mostly conservatives defend the Irar war and the US military regime and power. Injustice, suffering, murder, irresponsibility, massive human suffering, crippling of people, sudden deaths, invasions, blood and gore is what the US population is supporting.
I am saying supporting especially with the US relection of Bush in mind, what kind of direction is the US heading in anyways?

Not only do they defend it, they cheer it like a bunch of bloodthirsty wolfs.
 
I've never heard anyone over the age of 20 who had any education/sense of world affairs make this argument.

I am sorry to say it, but it seems like the truth when you compare the US 10 years ago to the US today. Its of course somewhat of an exhaggeration, and its an exhaggeration to make people in the US wake up from their war cheerleading squad and realize that your countrys image is suffering severely both inside and outside of the US.

The only thing I am REALLY comparing between the US and Nazi Germany is the level of propaganda this government has made, its so hardcore now, and so integrated into everyday life in the US that its just shocking and utterly disturbing to watch it from the outside. You live in a propaganda state that easily can rig elections as they please if they want, and easily make the majority of the US population believe and accept whatever they want them to accept.
 
I am sorry to say it, but it seems like the truth when you compare the US 10 years ago to the US today. Its of course somewhat of an exhaggeration, and its an exhaggeration to make people in the US wake up from their war cheerleading squad and realize that your countrys image is suffering severely both inside and outside of the US.

I'm willing to bet that 10 years ago, you didn't much like the US either.

The only thing I am REALLY comparing between the US and Nazi Germany is the level of propaganda this government has made, its so hardcore now, and so integrated into everyday life in the US that its just shocking and utterly disturbing to watch it from the outside. You live in a propaganda state that easily can rig elections as they please if they want, and easily make the majority of the US population believe and accept whatever they want them to accept.

:shock:

The fact that you honestly seem to believe this makes me wonder what kind of ridiculous propaganda you're reading. You don't seem to have even the most basic grasp on how the media works, nor do you seem to have any sense of historical perspective. You do realize that unlike much of Europe, we don't have state-funded media, correct?

Your logic is pretty terrible too. If we live in a propaganda state that can easily rig elections, then what happened in 2006? If this evil propaganda state can easily make the majority of the US believe and accept whatever they want them to accept, then how come Bush has a 30% approval rating? Do you think about what you write before you say it?
 
I'm willing to bet that 10 years ago, you didn't much like the US either.

Yeah, well you are wrong. I supported the Iraq war in the beginning, I even moved to the US shortly after I turned 18 because I liked it so much. I hate th US government more than anything in the world. I cannot even describe how ****ing stupid they are with words. That these people are politicans are a ****ing miracle, because even aunch of kindergarden kids could handle the US administration better.
I still like the US, I just hate their leadership, and I feel sorry for anyone who voted for Bush,I pity them.

QUOTE=RightatNYU;531071]
:shock:

The fact that you honestly seem to believe this makes me wonder what kind of ridiculous propaganda you're reading. You don't seem to have even the most basic grasp on how the media works, nor do you seem to have any sense of historical perspective. You do realize that unlike much of Europe, we don't have state-funded media, correct?

Your logic is pretty terrible too. If we live in a propaganda state that can easily rig elections, then what happened in 2006? If this evil propaganda state can easily make the majority of the US believe and accept whatever they want them to accept, then how come Bush has a 30% approval rating? Do you think about what you write before you say it?[/QUOTE]

I read all kind of news, from multiple sources in multiple languages, I read actuality magazine, 3-4 of them every week.

You just dont understand this, I am sorry, I a m sorry, I am not going to bother to try to reason with you.

I am fully aware of those things you say btw.



The truth is too big to understand for most people.
 
Yeah, well you are wrong. I supported the Iraq war in the beginning, I even moved to the US shortly after I turned 18 because I liked it so much. I hate th US government more than anything in the world. I cannot even describe how ****ing stupid they are with words. That these people are politicans are a ****ing miracle, because even aunch of kindergarden kids could handle the US administration better.
I still like the US, I just hate their leadership, and I feel sorry for anyone who voted for Bush,I pity them.


So you like us, even though we're stupid sheep who are so intellectually feeble as to be convinced to support absolutely evil people. That's sweet.

I read all kind of news, from multiple sources in multiple languages, I read actuality magazine, 3-4 of them every week.

You just dont understand this, I am sorry, I a m sorry, I am not going to bother to try to reason with you.

I am fully aware of those things you say btw.

The truth is too big to understand for most people.

You're right, my bad. All us stupid Americans just don't have the mental capacity of someone like you who's figured out exactly how our country is run. If only we were blessed with your superior intellect and logical reasoning ability. :(
 
So you like us, even though we're stupid sheep who are so intellectually feeble as to be convinced to support absolutely evil people. That's sweet.

Yeah.. :roll:
Arent we all stupid slaves in the western world?

NYU said:
You're right, my bad. All us stupid Americans just don't have the mental capacity of someone like you who's figured out exactly how our country is run. If only we were blessed with your superior intellect and logical reasoning ability. :(


The only reason I see America as it is better than Americans is because I see it from a neutral standpoint. I read American media, and European media. I also read other media, Chinese in English for example. All kinds.
The difference is that i dont watch America with a tainted rose eyed nationalistic patriotic view that I am willing to overlook obvious facts for.
 
No, Im saying neo-cons are Nazis.. Afghanistan = Austria?
Who will be the UK for the US?
So neo cons are <racist pure blood fanatics that seek the conquest of the world under a master race>?


The illogical alarm just rang so hard it exploded...:lol:
 
I am not saying the US is targeting gays or jews, but they might be targetting muslims in general. The methods of the Bush administration resembles that of Nazi Germany in many ways, especially how they get people to agree with the through propaganda, and how they have kept a whole nation ignorant about their REAL goals.

As I said, it is one thing to assert that Bush Administration officials do certain things that in your opinion are reflective of certain things that were done in Nazi Germany.

That is a big difference from asserting that Bush is equivalent to Hitler.

If Bush was equivalent to Hitler, the 10 million Muslims living in America would be in concentration camps being systematically exterminated. Elections in the US would be terminated, the Congress disanded. The ME would be nuked by now.

How can you possibly assert the two are equivalent?

Its scary to see from the outside how many Americans seem like brainwashed zoombies that only think about what their government "force3 them to think about. I have nothing else to compare this to than Nazi Germany.

I think the lesson of what happened to Germany, which went from a liberal democracy in the 20s to a totalitarian regime in the 30s, is a lesson that all nations would be wise to reflect upon. But the US is a long way from the Germany of the 1930s.

I just have no comprehension about how any decent human being can defend the Iraq war and its massive spending when perhaps as much as a billion people live in constant starvation, curable illnesses lack of water and malnutrition.

The money spent on Iraq would have been enough to deal with those problems for decades on a massive scale.

The fact that the US does not provide the degree of humanitarian foreign aid that it might is no basis for equating it to Nazi Germany.

Yet some people, mostly conservatives defend the Irar war and the US military regime and power. Injustice, suffering, murder, irresponsibility, massive human suffering, crippling of people, sudden deaths, invasions, blood and gore is what the US population is supporting.
I am saying supporting especially with the US relection of Bush in mind, what kind of direction is the US heading in anyways?

Not only do they defend it, they cheer it like a bunch of bloodthirsty wolfs.

I agree that the US action in Iraq was an is unwarranted and unjustified. However, that does not equate it to actions of Nazi Germany. Hitler made no pretenses about his military expantionist policies was to expand the greater German empire and the "master race." His military actions were effected to expand the German nation and to establish German polical dominance over all of Europe, and at the same time the extermination of "lesser" races to make room for the "superior" ones.

The American people as a whole had lived in relative isolation from terrorist attacks on their soil, and 9-11 was a huge shock to the American psyche. IMO there has been an over-reaction to the attack, which has been fueled by fear generated by the Administration as well as the media. Whether justified or not, that was a major factor in how Americans have reacted in the past few years. The US re-elected Bush reflected that, yet he still won by a very narrow margin, especially for an incumbent.

Two years later, in 2006, there was a huge backlash to the Administration's policies, and the American people put a new party in control of the legislature.

Instead of focusing on the actions of what is the minority supporting continued war in Iraq, look at the big picture.
 
US with lots of opposition took Iraq, no big military opposition, a few military cooperations. UK=Italy. Same thing happend, Germany vs Poland. Opposition is just getting worse and worse. (this was the start of ww2 for Germany) and in many ways Iraq will go down in history as the starting point of ww3.

I don't wanna be Italy. Italy's rubbish!

We'll be Japan. At least they could fight.

Who are the good guy's gonna be? The EU? :mrgreen: Aren't we still a pretty big part of them. Maybe we could play both sides... Except that would make us Italy again. Nah your analogy just sucks.
 
So neo cons are <racist pure blood fanatics that seek the conquest of the world under a master race>?


The illogical alarm just rang so hard it exploded...:lol:

No no, I am not comparing the ideology, I am comparing the methods.
 
Two years later, in 2006, there was a huge backlash to the Administration's policies, and the American people put a new party in control of the legislature.

Instead of focusing on the actions of what is the minority supporting continued war in Iraq, look at the big picture.



Believe me, I am seeing that light in the end of the burning tunnel, no one was more happy then me that democrats now control both houses. It might be the end of madness if a democratic president is elected in 2008. But until then.
No one will forget the Bush era as a huge crisis for the US, the forgiving will be very slow, a democratic president will have a hard job, a republican president will only make things worse.

The US definetely need to build trust again and it wil take a very long time, but its possible that the UK can gain back some of their great losses from the Bush era. I certainly hope the US finds their real direction again, instead of this lunacy and overfocus on the wrong issues and doing everything the wrong way, which will only lead to a worse future.
 
No no, I am not comparing the ideology, I am comparing the methods.

"We Americans used to say that the American Dream is worth dying for. The new European Dream is worth living for." Who are you quoting here?
 
"We Americans used to say that the American Dream is worth dying for. The new European Dream is worth living for." Who are you quoting here?

Jeremy Rifkin.
He wrote an excellent book about the new European dream. I think you will understand Europeans much more if you read that book, thats almost a promise. It will tell you how we think and what out ideologies are.

I think you can find a lot of pieces of that book if you google it, even those will tell you alot. It will teach you alot about the differences between the US and Europe.
 
No no, I am not comparing the ideology, I am comparing the methods.
Nazism was a totalitarian ideology that stressed the racial purity of the german race... it also stressed socialism... was deeply anti jewish... and was very much against political and economic liberalism.

How is that ANYTHING like what neocons want?

Neocons on the contary are a democratic ideology that stresses racial equality... it also stresses capitalism... has many jewish members... and is very much for political and economic liberalism.

*illogical arm having already exploded starts to melt*


You are making literally ZERO sense. Explain please how neocons have ANYTHING to do with nazism... whatsoever? :shock:


Frankly, I think the only reason you're comparing them to nazis is that you're reflexively referring to anything you don't like as being fascist. Which is intellectually lazy and certainly not respectable in any forum that is in itself respectable.

I need reasons. Build an argument.


by your own logic europe is more fascistic then the Neocons were...:lol:
 
Believe me, I am seeing that light in the end of the burning tunnel, no one was more happy then me that democrats now control both houses. It might be the end of madness if a democratic president is elected in 2008. But until then.
No one will forget the Bush era as a huge crisis for the US, the forgiving will be very slow, a democratic president will have a hard job, a republican president will only make things worse.

The US definetely need to build trust again and it wil take a very long time, but its possible that the UK can gain back some of their great losses from the Bush era. I certainly hope the US finds their real direction again, instead of this lunacy and overfocus on the wrong issues and doing everything the wrong way, which will only lead to a worse future.

How does that justify equating Americans to nazis and Bush to Hitler?
 
The answer to this thread's title: If you're a Kurd, it's better. If you're a Shiite, it's better. If you're a woman, it's better. If you're Israel, it's better. If you're America it's better.

If you live inside the Sunni triangle, it's worse.

If we got all our news about California (similar size to Iraq) from the ghettos of L.A., we'd think that state was a disaster too.
 
The answer to this thread's title: If you're a Kurd, it's better. If you're a Shiite, it's better. If you're a woman, it's better. If you're Israel, it's better. If you're America it's better.

If you live inside the Sunni triangle, it's worse.

If we got all our news about California (similar size to Iraq) from the ghettos of L.A., we'd think that state was a disaster too.

That is a very good point. Nicely put.
 
aquapub,
in case you don't know, blair never said this:
"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom" -Tony Blair
Urban Legends Reference Pages: Tony Blair Quote

it's an internet urban legend.

he did say this:
First, we should remain the closest ally of the US, and as allies influence them to continue broadening their agenda. We are the ally of the US not because they are powerful, but because we share their values. I am not surprised by anti-Americanism; but it is a foolish indulgence. For all their faults and all nations have them, the US are a force for good; they have liberal and democratic traditions of which any nation can be proud. I sometimes think it is a good rule of thumb to ask of a country: are people trying to get into it or out of it? It's not a bad guide to what sort of country it is.

I like the sig... blair just never said it.
 
The answer to this thread's title: If you're a Kurd, it's better. If you're a Shiite, it's better. If you're a woman, it's better. If you're Israel, it's better. If you're America it's better.

If you live inside the Sunni triangle, it's worse.

If we got all our news about California (similar size to Iraq) from the ghettos of L.A., we'd think that state was a disaster too.

The number of violent civilian deaths has skyrocketed since we invaded, and a majority of Iraqis believe that Iraq is worse since the invasion: inside and outside the Sunni Triangle. I'm talking from Crescent City to San Diego here. Things are worse. Unless, of course, you take the opinions of the political leaders in your party over the actual Iraqis. Not to suggest you would do such a thing.


Duke
 
The number of violent civilian deaths has skyrocketed since we invaded, and a majority of Iraqis believe that Iraq is worse since the invasion: inside and outside the Sunni Triangle.
Cite a source please.
 
Cite a source please.

But of course.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-iraq-findings.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/19_03_07_iraqpollnew.pdf

Q6 Now thinking about how things are going, not for you personally, but for Iraq as a whole,
gs are going in our country overall these days? Would you say things
are going very good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

2007
%
Very Good 4
Quite Good 31
Quite Bad 35
Very Bad 31

Q7 Compared to our country as it was before the war in spring 2003, are things in Iraq
overall much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse, or much worse?

2007
%
Much Better 11
Somewhat Better 27
About the Same 12
Somewhat Worse 30
Much Worse 20

http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/iraqpoll/poll5/flash.htm


Duke
 
Yeah.. :roll:
Arent we all stupid slaves in the western world?

The only reason I see America as it is better than Americans is because I see it from a neutral standpoint. I read American media, and European media. I also read other media, Chinese in English for example. All kinds.
The difference is that i dont watch America with a tainted rose eyed nationalistic patriotic view that I am willing to overlook obvious facts for.

Alright, you've convinced me that there's no point in wasting my time arguing with you. Best of luck to you and yours.
 
Your material is somewhat contradictory... from the same poll:

Q2 Compared to our country as it was before the war in spring 2003, are things in Iraq
overall much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse, or much worse?

MB 14
SM 29
AB 22
SW 28
MW 8


Adding much and somewhat together we get this:

43 say better... 36 say worse.


Iraq ain't no picnick... but under saddam that was the best it was ever going to be.


Now the sky's the limit. The primary difference between Iraq before and after is potential. Before Iraq had no potential. Now it does. Iraq might actually be a place you'd like to visit... hell to work... maybe even to vacation. These things are now POSSIBLE in the future. Before... completely impossible.



Go ahead... tell me these people aren't "fit" of democracy... or aren't able to understand "freedom"... say something else to make the point that they should have remained under a bloody minded dictator... it's enlightening.


What's also interesting about that poll is that it shows the history of how people have voted on these issues. 2005 showed Iraqis generally saying the US invasion was good. 2007 shows that they're not happy.

The primary difference between then and now besides it being a year later... is the US is starting to waver on whether it will stick it out... and that makes people SCARED over there. Because that means everything they've been suffering through over there will be for NOTHING. You will take all of that away from them... and that makes them upset. What's more they don't much see the difference between left wing and right wing americans. To them we're much the same. And if we bail they'll put that on both of us.



What I find the most dishonest about this approuch is that for years the Iraqi polls have been in BUSH"S favor... now that it looks the dems are going to defund the war the polls over there start to dive... and "now" they bring out the polls like that proves something. Well why did you ignore them for so many years? We can give these people a country to be proud of or we can kick them back into the slave pen.


Your choice.
 
Last edited:
Your material is somewhat contradictory... from the same poll:
Q2 Compared to our country as it was before the war in spring 2003, are things in Iraq
overall much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse, or much worse?

MB 14
SM 29
AB 22
SW 28
MW 8

Not quite contradictory. They are saying their personal lives are better, but that Iraq overall is worse:

Now thinking about how things are going, not for you personally, but for Iraq as a whole,
how would you say things are going in our country overall these days? Would you say things
are going very good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

66 Worse, 35 Better.


Iraq ain't no picnick... but under saddam that was the best it was ever going to be.

I take this to mean that it was the most table that it ever has been. I think it has potential to become better.


Now the sky's the limit. The primary difference between Iraq before and after is potential. Before Iraq had no potential. Now it does. Iraq might actually be a place you'd like to visit... hell to work... maybe even to vacation. These things are now POSSIBLE in the future. Before... completely impossible.

Go ahead... tell me these people aren't "fit" of democracy... or aren't able to understand "freedom"... say something else to make the point that they should have remained under a bloody minded dictator... it's enlightening.

My God. Do I give you the impression that I might say such things, or am I simply cursed for people to assume the most horrendous things about me? I wouldn't consider making such statements, and the fact that someone half-expects me to utter them is insulting and saddening. The words you put into my mouth are making me gag.


Duke
 
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