Is free will illusory?

[Summerwind]

I recently had a discussion with a fellow atheist about Sam Harris' book Free Will and I was taken aback by just how hostile my colleague was to the idea that Free Will might be an illusion. I have come to believe that we do live in a deterministic universe and it seems to me the the benefits of thinking this way far out weigh the feelings of desperation my friend so afraid of.

With this in mind I am curious how others feel about this subject.
I welcome people of all creeds to chime in.

If you are an atheist, is this an idea that you have concerned yourself with? Do you find evidence in support of Free Will?

If you are a believer of some shade, do you feel that the loss of free will threatens your belief system or is there some way to reconcile the two? Remember I am asking a hypothetical here, if you suddenly found out beyond any shadow of a doubt that free will is an illusion would you still maintain your faith? On that note is free will something you take on faith?


For anyone, if society as a whole were to adopt this philosophy what benefits do you think we would enjoy? What negative consequences? (ie how would it impact our daily lives? Our system of laws?)

I am not attempting to start a religious debate here, I hope we can talk about free will on its own terms.

Free will, regardless of where one believes it comes from, is not a black and white issue, it's definitely shades of grey. We here in the US, and other western countries have more free will than perhaps others, but no one has 100% free will, nor is anyone delegated to 0% freewill without their consent, adults anyways.

 

[calamity]

Free will, regardless of where one believes it comes from, is not a black and white issue, it's definitely shades of grey. We here in the US, and other western countries have more free will than perhaps others, but no one has 100% free will, nor is anyone delegated to 0% freewill without their consent, adults anyways.

Even for those born here in the US, one has to wonder...

If someone is beaten throughout childhood, neglected, abandoned, tortured and filled with hate, how much free will do they really have when they finally grow up? Their decisions cannot possibly be completely rational. Same with second raised in a house full of unconditional love and blind trust. How rational are they when thrown into the real world which has neither unconditional love nor people who can be trusted blindl?

 

[Medusa]

I recently had a discussion with a fellow atheist about Sam Harris' book Free Will and I was taken aback by just how hostile my colleague was to the idea that Free Will might be an illusion. I have come to believe that we do live in a deterministic universe and it seems to me the the benefits of thinking this way far out weigh the feelings of desperation my friend so afraid of.

With this in mind I am curious how others feel about this subject.
I welcome people of all creeds to chime in.

If you are an atheist, is this an idea that you have concerned yourself with? Do you find evidence in support of Free Will?

If you are a believer of some shade, do you feel that the loss of free will threatens your belief system or is there some way to reconcile the two? Remember I am asking a hypothetical here, if you suddenly found out beyond any shadow of a doubt that free will is an illusion would you still maintain your faith? On that note is free will something you take on faith?


For anyone, if society as a whole were to adopt this philosophy what benefits do you think we would enjoy? What negative consequences? (ie how would it impact our daily lives? Our system of laws?)

I am not attempting to start a religious debate here, I hope we can talk about free will on its own terms.

if free will is an illusion how can l know whether it is illusion or not ?

 

[Summerwind]

Even for those born here in the US, one has to wonder... If someone is beaten throughout childhood, neglected, abandoned, tortured and filled with hate, how much free will do they really have when they finally grow up? Their decisions cannot possibly be completely rational. Same with second raised in a house full of unconditional love and blind trust. How rational are they when thrown into the real world which has neither unconditional love nor people who can be trusted blindl?

Depends on the individual, and again it's in shades of grey. Having been that person and having a brother equally treated abusively, I tend to be overly independent exerting as much free will as possible, whereas my brother drowned his confusions in heroin and such, basically finding the way to continue his lack of freewill by becoming addicted to something that would control his life, negatively unfortunately. It's all shades of grey regardless of where we live. Not all in the US and western worlds have equal freewill, collectively or on an individual basis. Seriouslly you don't have to even go for abusive, just look at the socioeconomic classes to see that even within the same country, county, city,.... free will has many shades of grey.

 

[calamity]

Depends on the individual, and again it's in shades of grey. Having been that person and having a brother equally treated abusively, I tend to be overly independent exerting as much free will as possible, whereas my brother drowned his confusions in heroin and such, basically finding the way to continue his lack of freewill by becoming addicted to something that would control his life, negatively unfortunately. It's all shades of grey regardless of where we live. Not all in the US and western worlds have equal freewill, collectively or on an individual basis. Seriouslly you don't have to even go for abusive, just look at the socioeconomic classes to see that even within the same country, county, city,.... free will has many shades of grey.

Makes me wonder why you chose path A and he chose Path B...and was it "choice"?

 

[Summerwind]

Makes me wonder why you chose path A and he chose Path B...and was it "choice"?

No I think it was deeper than that. He would give when he was being beaten, whereas even at a young age, I didn't. I would just keep glaring hatred at John, fists all tightened up, beating lasting longer, no doubt, but evenso, I refused to be broken. My brother was easier to break.

 

[Henrin]

Even for those born here in the US, one has to wonder...

If someone is beaten throughout childhood, neglected, abandoned, tortured and filled with hate, how much free will do they really have when they finally grow up? Their decisions cannot possibly be completely rational. Same with second raised in a house full of unconditional love and blind trust. How rational are they when thrown into the real world which has neither unconditional love nor people who can be trusted blindl?

It depends on the individual like Summerwind said. My mother and her brothers were abused as children by their father and the results vary between them. Two of her brothers turned out to be wife beaters and child abusers like their father, her youngest brother murdered his girlfriend at 22, while my mother became determined to raise her children in a loving environment and be the mother she never had(long story there). All of them made choices in their lives to act in the way they did and become the people they became. As it stands, her youngest brother is serving a life sentence and her other two are alone without anyone in their life that loves them. They have no one to blame but themselves really. Her brothers didn't have to grow up to abuse their wifes or murder anyone, but they did, and those decisions are on them. While it is true your past can affect you, it is still up to you on how you will respond to it.

 

[calamity]

No I think it was deeper than that. He would give when he was being beaten, whereas even at a young age, I didn't. I would just keep glaring hatred at John, fists all tightened up, beating lasting longer, no doubt, but evenso, I refused to be broken. My brother was easier to break.

I think you're onto something. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that we have a lot of innate qualities that dictate how we respond to stress/adversity. Even how we respond to pain varies, some handling it extremely well, blocking it out to the point of almost being impervious to it, while others succumb to it. And then there is the whole matter of resilience. Some people bounce better than others.

How much of any of that is "free will"?

 

[calamity]

It depends on the individual like Summerwind said. My mother and her brothers were abused as children by their father and the results vary between them. Two of her brothers turned out to be wife beaters and child abusers like their father, her youngest brother murdered his girlfriend at 22, while my mother became determined to raise her children in a loving environment and be the mother she never had(long story there). All of them made choices in their lives to act in the way they did and become the people they became. As it stands, her youngest brother is serving a life sentence and her other two are alone without anyone in their life that loves them. They have no one to blame but themselves really. Her brothers didn't have to grow up to abuse their wifes or murder anyone, but they did, and those decisions are on them. While it is true your past can affect you, it is still up to you on how you will respond to it.

I think this is an area where outside influence like religion can play an important role. At the very least it provides a map and a loving community to which one can belong. There may well be something to the free will-spirituality connection.

 

[Summerwind]

I think you're onto something. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that we have a lot of innate qualities that dictate how we respond to stress/adversity. Even how we respond to pain varies, some handling it extremely well, blocking it out to the point of almost being impervious to it, while others succumb to it. And then there is the whole matter of resilience. Some people bounce better than others. How much of any of that is "free will"?

Exactly why I say it's all shades of grey, with the environment, the nature, the nurture, and the community all play a part in an individual's free will and/or the expression thereof.

 

[Summerwind]

I think this is an area where outside influence like religion can play an important role. At the very least it provides a map and a loving community to which one can belong. There may well be something to the free will-spirituality connection.

You are kidding about religion being a loving community, right? I mean seriously there are very few that are loving unless you relinquish free will to their ideology. And that type of conditional love, isn't really love, is it?

 

[Cyrylek]

If you are an atheist, is this an idea that you have concerned yourself with? Do you find evidence in support of Free Will?.

I am an atheist, and "this idea" is fairly central to the way I view the world. Do I find "evidence in support"? Yes, overwhelming. Starting with the very fact that you are asking these questions, and I am answering them right now, while neither of us had been programmed to do that, and either of us is perfectly free - in potential and in practice - to do something else at this very moment.

(The newest, "neurological" series of attacks on the idea of free will come from the bizarre notion that if plenty of what we do is dictated by our instincts, our subconscious and various social programming, then nothing ever is a result of our conscious choice, and we don't even have the capacity).

 

[Cyrylek]

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he dictated everything that ever has been and ever will be.

Doesn't follow. Omnipotence is just a potential. Why God cannot abstain from action and let randomness and wills of lesser beings shape parts of the universe?

 

[calamity]

You are kidding about religion being a loving community, right? I mean seriously there are very few that are loving unless you relinquish free will to their ideology. And that type of conditional love, isn't really love, is it?

Good point. You do have to sell your soul, buying into whatever is being offered, in order to be fully accepted by the congregation. There's little room for independent thought or critical thinking which questions the dogma. But, that may be just what the doctor ordered for the weaker minded individuals.

 

[Cyrylek]

I will use the definition Sam Harris laid out in his book as I find it to be rather all encompassing:

Free will implies that each of us was free to behave differently than we did in our pasts and secondly that we are the conscious source of our thoughts and actions.

Then free will definitely does exist. A painter who creates a unique piece of art, or an inventor who designs something that never existed before obviously do behave differently than in the past, and they need to remember things, make observations, weigh options, adjust and analyze their work as they proceed. They have to be "the conscious source of their thoughts and actions", because these thoughts and actions are a part of a process that did not exist before they started it, and at each step they are consciously responding to a new, unique situation.

Alternatively, of course, they can be puppets of mysterious gods or spirits "speaking through them". Which still implies free will, just not human.

 

[Jayhawker30]

Doesn't follow. Omnipotence is just a potential. Why God cannot abstain from action and let randomness and wills of lesser beings shape parts of the universe?

Because that "randomness" and "wills of lesser beings" are brought about from the foundation the god had forged, to play out as he sees it to.

Free will or not, what god has seen for people to do is all that's available for them to do. Foreseen actions are invariable actions.

 

[Cyrylek]

Because that "randomness" and "wills of lesser beings" are brought about from the foundation the god had forged, to play out as he sees it to.

Free will or not, what god has seen for people to do is all that's available for them to do. Foreseen actions are invariable actions.

Again, you are assuming the foresight applied, the "omnipotence and omniscience" having been enacted every time and everywhere. Which needs not to be the case.

 

[gunner]

I think some people might benefit from familiarizing themselves with where the debate (freewill/determinism) is at

Peter F. Strawson

especially on 'reactive attitudes' etc.

Paul

 

[Hicup]

Free will is only a question because God is a question that needs an answer. If the question of God is answered then the question of free will also becomes clear. No God means free will, have a God and there still could be free will, but could not also be.. Solution? Eliminate God from the question.

Tim-

 

[Jayhawker30]

I just think that everything happens due to reasons.

I believe there are fundamental reasons why I am here typing this response onto this thread instead of doing anything else that's within my capability, in much the same way I believe that there are reasons why a ball may roll down a slope a certain way rather than some other way, that a wind may blow in one direction rather than somewhere else, and that one particular type of creature acts one way while another acts differently.

 

[Mach]

Rubbish. Consciousnesses is a "trailing moment" - existing after the fact, not in "real time". It's nothing more than an illusory by-product of our organic event recorder, which is a biochemical survival mechanism. People remember facts put together in a story line better than they remember individual, unrelated facts.

lol by that definition nothing in reality itself is in this "real time". Thus, you make no point specific to consciousness. My pain isn't in "real time", are you suggesting pain isn't a real phenomenon?

Even logically it's trivial to show the absurdity. So you claim we are what...NOT conscious? Do we really need to show how absurd that remark is?

The ball doesn't "choose" to drop once it leaves the table top, copper doesn't "choose" to oxidize under normal atmospheric conditions, and we don't "choose" our actions.

You exactly missed the point. The proper comparison is to admit that it's the balls mass and the mass of the earth that results in it dropping (for example) and it's not the mass of a star 1000000 light years away that resulted in it dropping. Or that it was the slope of THAT table, rather than the table in China that resulted in the distribution of force such that it rolled off the table. Similarly, it's MY consciousness that makes MY choices. Aside from chaos theory-esque detail, the person in China thinking about XYZ isn't making MY choices....

 

[Jayhawker30]

Similarly, it's MY consciousness that makes MY choices. Aside from chaos theory-esque detail, the person in China thinking about XYZ isn't making MY choices....

It's here where I wonder... what makes our consciousness to make our choices?

 

[Mach]

It's here where I wonder... what makes our consciousness to make our choices?

In no small part our own consciousness makes our consciousness make our choices. We self reference, that's one of the hallmarks of consciousness. Your new years resolution, who made that...a rock buried 100 miles down, or you? I'm going with "you". (just an example, I don't wait to new years to make commitments to myself, I do them every day)

 

[Jayhawker30]

In no small part our own consciousness makes our consciousness make our choices. We self reference, that's one of the hallmarks of consciousness. Your new years resolution, who made that...a rock buried 100 miles down, or you? I'm going with "you". (just an example, I don't wait to new years to make commitments to myself, I do them every day)

But what makes our own consciousness make our own consciousness make our choices? What is kicking the circle off?

 

[Kal'Stang]

I recently had a discussion with a fellow atheist about Sam Harris' book Free Will and I was taken aback by just how hostile my colleague was to the idea that Free Will might be an illusion. I have come to believe that we do live in a deterministic universe and it seems to me the the benefits of thinking this way far out weigh the feelings of desperation my friend so afraid of.

With this in mind I am curious how others feel about this subject.
I welcome people of all creeds to chime in.

If you are an atheist, is this an idea that you have concerned yourself with? Do you find evidence in support of Free Will?

If you are a believer of some shade, do you feel that the loss of free will threatens your belief system or is there some way to reconcile the two? Remember I am asking a hypothetical here, if you suddenly found out beyond any shadow of a doubt that free will is an illusion would you still maintain your faith? On that note is free will something you take on faith?


For anyone, if society as a whole were to adopt this philosophy what benefits do you think we would enjoy? What negative consequences? (ie how would it impact our daily lives? Our system of laws?)

I am not attempting to start a religious debate here, I hope we can talk about free will on its own terms.

Unless you can time travel there is no way to really tell if there is free will or not so it all comes down to why a person believes in free will or deterministic universe.

I personally believe that it is a combination. There is always a choice to any action that we take. But on the other hand the reason we make certain choices is based on what has made us what and who we are via past interactions or as the case may be, non-interactions.