IS Chivalry Dead? If so, Who Killed It?

[Josie]

That wouldn't be very kid friendly....

Oh, bah. I say tell the kids the truth!

 

[herenow1]

It is currently a bit unfashionable, but far from dead.

I still practice a somewhat abbreviated and pragmatic version of it. I hold doors for ladies and old people, or people with packages or children in tow, persons who appear unwell, or anything like that. Bearing in mind the difference in physical strength, I often offer women assistance with physical tasks if they appear to be struggling or having difficulty. I am more inclined to be courteous and helpful to anyone in the previous categories, since I tend to expect healthy young men to lift their own bags and change their own tire, barring unusual circumstances.

Being aware that many females are more sensitive to harsh words or displays of anger or crude behavior, I try to moderate my behavior in their presence when I might act otherwise in the sole company of men.

In short, if a women acts like a respectable lady, I treat her as such.

I have trained up my son likewise. When he picks up his date, he goes to the door and politely inquires if she is ready; if her parents wish to interrogate him first he is to accept it and be respectful of their authority and concerns. I told him I had better NEVER hear of him pulling up and blowing the horn when picking up a date... that's okay for picking up a buddy but IMO very disrespectful to a young lady and her parents. I also told him that when he takes someone's daughter out for a date he is assuming reasonable responsibility for her safety and well-being; that it is his duty as a man to see to it that she returns home safe and well, and hopefully happy inasmuch as it is within his power to make it so.... unless she turns out to be Miss Crazy Bitch and insists on visiting Cracktown, in which case he is allowed to dump her ass at the corner and go home. I have instructed him that he must not strike or manhandle women, except in serious cases of self-defense where it is necessary to avoid injury.

Well, his favorite female cousin is an exception to that last. She weighs nearly as much as he does, is probably stronger than an average man, and enjoys a bit of roughhousing and has been doing that with him since he was little. Exceptions to the rule....

Piggy backing off one of your points. While some here say show kindness to everyone and help everyone regardless of gender, true, but... men are going to act how men act and v.v. Example, it has been my experience that a man has always offered me help when it came to ''manly'' or physical things. The random times I've had to look under my hood, there has always been a male to walk by and ask if I needed help, never a woman. If a man gets to the door 5-10 seconds before me, he will wait, and hold the door open for me. Now yes, women have held doors for me, and I them, but they generally don't open it, watch, and wait,,or hold the door while walking in behind me.

Anoher example; I bought a bike for my daughter this past summer, and I had a hard time getting it in the hatchback. I only tried for about 50 seconds before I heard a man about 3 rows back yell,''ma'am do you need help with that''. He came right up and folded it up in there like it was nothing, AND he was old. This goes back to wiring, and has NOTHING to do with one gender not respecting another, or respecting anyone less. Men spring into action in ways they feel they are helpful, and women spring into action when they feel they could offer some assistance.

How many men do you know offer to hold babies if they see the mom has her hands full? He may offer to help with the bags. How many women ask to somebody's a baby just because? See where I'm going.

 

[Tigger]

If you're talking about how things were 500 to 1,000 years ago, then, yes, that kind of chivalry is dead. It's neither needed today nor practical. Chastity belts are very uncomfortable.

Assuming you are correct, then the world is a worse place for having lost that type of Chivalry. As for the Chastity Belts.... those were not part of the Chivalric Code or Courtly Love.

How about we all treat each other with respect, and common human decency, and not care about how men and women are supposed to treat each other. Let's just care about how we treat everybody.

Sorry, but we both know that doesn't work in real life. Respect must be EARNED in many of our minds, and I find very few individuals of either gender who are worthy of mine in this day and age.

Yes, the Medieval definition of chivalry is exactly that. I made the mistake of thinking Tigger was talking about the common modern meaning of chivalrous...courteous and gallant.

Courtesy and Honor were just two of the Virtues of Chivalry that the "modern" ideal of Chivalry evolved from. However, without all of those Virtues: Prowess, Loyalty, Largess, Courtesy, Franchise, and Honor the system doesn't really work.

 

[Tigger]

technology must have killed it..

It certainly has not helped very much.

 

[MaggieD]

Respect must be EARNED in many of our minds, and I find very few individuals of either gender who are worthy of mine in this day and age.

That's a serously flawed concept. Respect is to be lost, not earned.

 

[Tigger]

[edited for brevity] How many men do you know offer to hold babies if they see the mom has her hands full? He may offer to help with the bags. How many women ask to somebody's a baby just because? See where I'm going.

Definitely, and it makes all the sense in the world. Obviously men and women are wired differently and always have been. Our physiology and psychology are wired differently for a reason.... because men and women were not designed to take on the same tasks in society. Whether we like it or not, that's just the fact of the matter. Chivalry and Courtly Love played into that by giving each gender a set of responsibilities and duties befitting their strengths and augmenting their weaknesses. Courtly Love is where we get the word "Courting" from, obviously. However, as we've moved away from the ideal situation of each gender engaging in tasks related to their strengths and instead replaced it with the the idea that anyone can (and should) do anything they want, the system of Chivalry and Courtly Love is no longer feasible.

I think of the athletic company (Adidas?) and their "Anything you can do, I can do better." advertising campaign from a couple of years ago as a great example of what's wrong. Especially the one with Nomar Garciapara (baseball player) and his wife Mia Hamm (soccer player). Each of them were world-class athletes in their own right, but the commercial showed them trying to best each other at their own games. Why? Obviously it's a commercial, but I see a lot of marriages where the same thing seems to happen. Including one where it did end up causing the breakup of a marriage.....

I knew a gentleman named Ron, who I used to shoot with quite regularly a few years back. He's about a decade older than I am. He would often talk about the idea of having his wife, Cheryl come and see what it is we were doing. His own personal cheering section, as he joked about it. That ended up being a mistake. She came one Saturday, decided she wanted to give it a try, and within six months was kicking his ass all over the range three times a month. Apparently the tension it caused was the final straw that ended their marriage.

 

[Tigger]

That's a serously flawed concept. Respect is to be lost, not earned.

I totally disagree. There is a basic level of human decency that should almost always be shown, but RESPECT is earned through word and deed, Maggie. Anything else is a waste of time and energy.

 

[MaggieD]

I totally disagree. There is a basic level of human decency that should almost always be shown, but RESPECT is earned through word and deed, Maggie. Anything else is a waste of time and energy.

Maybe we're arguing semantics. My position is that every single person should be "treated with" respect unless and until they prove themselves undeserving of same.

 

[Tigger]

Maybe we're arguing semantics. My position is that every single person should be "treated with" respect unless and until they prove themselves undeserving of same.

I'm pretty sure what you consider to be that base level of respect and what I do are very different things, though.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I totally disagree. There is a basic level of human decency that should almost always be shown

Yeah, like not beating your women in a public parking lot ...

 

[Tigger]

Yeah, like not beating your women in a public parking lot ...

She was shown basic human decency. She sustained no permanent injuries from the event, except possibly to her ego, which was well out of proportion. She EARNED what happened to her that night by her behavior in the preceeding three hours. My only other real alternative would have been to leave her sitting there at the table unable to pay her half of the tab and with no way to get home (she had no money, no cell phone, and wasn't even totally aware of where she was). Would you have prefered that I simply abandon her there instead?

 

[Slartibartfast]

She was shown basic human decency. She sustained no permanent injuries from the event, except possibly to her ego, which was well out of proportion. She EARNED what happened to her that night by her behavior in the preceeding three hours. My only other real alternative would have been to leave her sitting there at the table unable to pay her half of the tab and with no way to get home (she had no money, no cell phone, and wasn't even totally aware of where she was). Would you have prefered that I simply abandon her there instead?

Perhaps a "well that concludes our date. I did not enjoy it, so that's the last." would have sufficed.

 

[Josie]

Tigger treats his women like kids: If you get out of line, you get a your ass smacked repeatedly. Pretty darn disgusting if you ask me.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Tigger treats his women like kids: If you get out of line, you get a your ass smacked repeatedly. Pretty darn disgusting if you ask me.

Hell, kids shouldn't even be treated that way. If you don't spend time to teach them good morals, they just learn not to do bad things in your presence without ever learning why.

 

[MaggieD]

She was shown basic human decency. She sustained no permanent injuries from the event, except possibly to her ego, which was well out of proportion. She EARNED what happened to her that night by her behavior in the preceeding three hours. My only other real alternative would have been to leave her sitting there at the table unable to pay her half of the tab and with no way to get home (she had no money, no cell phone, and wasn't even totally aware of where she was). Would you have prefered that I simply abandon her there instead?

Wow. I wish I'd read the backstory to this post...

(I do particularly like the part about "unable to pay her half of the tab...")

 

[Tigger]

Perhaps a "well that concludes our date. I did not enjoy it, so that's the last." would have sufficed.

Okay, so you're suggesting that I should have left her more than 40 miles from her home with no means to get back home?

Tigger treats his women like kids: If you get out of line, you get a your ass smacked repeatedly. Pretty darn disgusting if you ask me.

Josie, I make no bones about who and what I am. I am as upfront and honest with women right off the bat about what they're getting with me. If they choose to walk away, that's fine. It saves us both a lot of time and energy. What I have a problem with are people who buy into a bargain and then refuse to live up to their end of it. She knew the price of misbehaving. She got two separate warnings during dinner itself about the inappropriateness of her behavior.

I will ask you the same as mega..... Should I have simply abandoned her there instead?... with no money, no transportation, and no means of communication. Would that have made you happier?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Okay, so you're suggesting that I should have left her more than 40 miles from her home with no means to get back home?

well I guess I need to point out the obvious again.

Yes, take her home first and then tell her that after she gets out of the car.

 

[Tigger]

Wow. I wish I'd read the backstory to this post...

(I do particularly like the part about "unable to pay her half of the tab...")

It's been discussed elsewhere previously. To make a long story short I ended up giving a bare assed spanking to a woman I was dating while she was bent over the hood of my car in the back of a restaurant parking lot some years back. She had earned it by her near total lack of decency or decorum in the restaurant while we were having dinner. She was well aware of my proclivities in this regard and had in fact received similar punishments twice before (though not in public places) for her poor behavior.

 

[Tigger]

well I guess I need to point out the obvious again. Yes, take her home first and then tell her that after she gets out of the car.

Sorry, that wasn't going to happen. At that point I had lost all interest in even being around her until she got the point that her behavior was not acceptable; so the two options where punishment or abandonment.

 

[blackjack50]

We've discussed this to some degree or another in several threads recently, so I figured that maybe it was time to discuss it more specifically....

IS Chivalry Dead? Has society moved so far away from the ideals and concepts of Chivalry that it has lost its place and value in the world?

Assuming that Chivalry IS Dead, or at least Mortally Wounded, who/what is/was it that dealt that crippling blow?

I have to say that Chivalry is not dead. It may have changed its form slightly though. I will say this though: if you are a younger man you will not be getting any women if you subscribe to chivalry. You are then just put in the friend zone. Maybe I am cynical? But that seems to happen to me a lot, and I also see it happening to the few guys I know who are actually chivalrous.

 

[MaggieD]

It's been discussed elsewhere previously. To make a long story short I ended up giving a bare assed spanking to a woman I was dating while she was bent over the hood of my car in the back of a restaurant parking lot some years back. She had earned it by her near total lack of decency or decorum in the restaurant while we were having dinner. She was well aware of my proclivities in this regard and had in fact received similar punishments twice before (though not in public places) for her poor behavior.

:shock:

You assaulted her. Three times. Now I understand the distain shown toward you in this forum at times. 'Course it sounds as if you two were a close to perfect match. I'd'a had your ass in jail after Spank #1. Unfreakin'believable.

 

[Tigger]

I have to say that Chivalry is not dead. It may have changed its form slightly though. I will say this though: if you are a younger man you will not be getting any women if you subscribe to chivalry. You are then just put in the friend zone. Maybe I am cynical? But that seems to happen to me a lot, and I also see it happening to the few guys I know who are actually chivalrous.

I'm 37, so it's either the friend zone or "I don't ever want to see you again." for the most part.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry, that wasn't going to happen. At that point I had lost all interest in even being around her until she got the point that her behavior was not acceptable; so the two options where punishment or abandonment.

its not about YOU tigger.

Its about the fact that someone's bad behavior NEVER gives another person the excuse to be bad themselves, aka responsibility and civility.

 

[Slartibartfast]

She was shown basic human decency. She sustained no permanent injuries from the event, except possibly to her ego, which was well out of proportion. She EARNED what happened to her that night by her behavior in the preceeding three hours. My only other real alternative would have been to leave her sitting there at the table unable to pay her half of the tab and with no way to get home (she had no money, no cell phone, and wasn't even totally aware of where she was). Would you have prefered that I simply abandon her there instead?

 

[Tigger]

You assaulted her. Three times. Now I understand the distain shown toward you in this forum at times. 'Course it sounds as if you two were a close to perfect match. I'd'a had your ass in jail after Spank #1. Unfreakin'believable.

She was well aware of the potential consequences of her actions. As I said earlier, I make it well known early on that I do not accept inappropriate behavior and that there can and will be consequences to it if it occurs. As you can see, it was well known by her at that time.

As for the distain shown to me at times around here... So be it. I stopped concerning myself with what other people thought of me a long time ago. About age 5.

We were by no means a close match. I have no DESIRE to have to do what I did to her that night. No more than any parent WANTS to have to corporally discipline a child. However, through my own experiences as a child I am well aware that at times corporal punishment is the ONLY way to get through to someone; whether they're 5 or 25. She was either unwilling or unable to play by the rules that were in place. When we got back to her place I dropped her off and never spoke to her again. She did call a couple times and leave messages but it was quite obvious by that time that she was not able to maintain the sense of order and discipline I'm looking for in a relationship.