Is Algebra Necessary? [W:227]

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Losers? How do you figure that they are losers?

And who gives a **** if it is required... maybe it shouldn't be "required".

And so what about college... does that make a person better, or something?

Most people are not cut out for college, nor should they be. Not all jobs need such an education. Most people work skill positions in trades with no college needed. Thank god too... I can't fix my engine, milk a cow or pave a road. Hell, I can barely unclog my pipes...

I seriously hope that you are being sarcastic.

 

[imagep]

I use algebra every day. How could it possibly not be needed? The big problem here is that the priority has more to do with feelings than achievements.

I suspect that a lot of people use algebra, but don't really realize they are because they are working a real life problem and not an abstract formula using X, Y or Z. And maybe thats part of the problem with the way we teach algebra. While we may need to teach using X and Y, maybe we arn't doing a good job of explaining what variables really are, and how to come up with a formula. Maybe we should be calling the class "Practical Algebra for Everyday Living".

 

[imagep]

Glad you took it then... for most of us though? It was an absolute waste of time.

So obviously you don't have a job in retail, or construction, or building anything, or anything related to business, and you never create anything other than maybe poetry. I find it very hard to believe that you never use algebra.

 

[MaggieD]

Most people are happy just skating by, and thats all they need to do for their jobs also. It doesn't take knowlege of advanced math (beyond first year algebra/trig/geometry) to be a cashier, or a customer service person, or a mechanic, or even an entry level retail manager.

I'm not saying that it should be like that, but thats just reality. Most people are very happen being ignorant. DP members excepted of course - some of us like to learn just for the sake of learning.

Or a history teacher, or a Realtor, or a Customer Service Representative, or an Attorney, or a printer, or an Administrative Assistant (you know, like the one that Buffett has that pays a higher % of tax than he does?), or a Postal Worker, or a Postmaster, or a Butcher, or a Dancer, or a Writer, or a Firefighter, or a Police Officer, or a Farmer, or a Court Reporter, or an Electrician, or a Plumber, or a Fitness Trainer, or a Human Resources Manager, or a Librarian, or a Loan Officer, or Director of Volunteers, or a Paralegal, or a Musician, or a Psychologist, or a Social Worker . . . I think you get the picture, yes?

The one thing I've noticed is that most of the posters who seem most disturbed by a suggestion that Algebra be omitted from curriculum is that they are snobs.

Or an FBI Agent, or a Homocide Detective, or an Actor, or a Store Manager, or an Editor, or a Writer, or a Fitness Trainer . . .

. . .

 

[imagep]

That is up from when I was a kid...

I know that it is an accurate figure because I just counted them all.

 

[Bodi]

I seriously hope that you are being sarcastic.

Not in the slightest... perhaps you can explain why you hope that I am instead? And I asked you some questions...

 

[imagep]

Or a history teacher, or a Realtor, or a Customer Service Representative, or an Attorney, or a printer, or an Administrative Assistant (you know, like the one that Buffett has that pays a higher % of tax than he does?), or a Postal Worker, or a Postmaster, or a Butcher, or a Dancer, or a Writer, or a Firefighter, or a Police Officer, or a Farmer, or a Court Reporter, or an Electrician, or a Plumber, or a Fitness Trainer, or a Human Resources Manager, or a Librarian, or a Loan Officer, or Director of Volunteers, or a Paralegal, or a Musician, or a Psychologist, or a Social Worker . . . I think you get the picture, yes?

The one thing I've noticed is that most of the posters who seem most disturbed by a suggestion that Algebra be omitted from curriculum is that they are snobs.

I trust you are all very successful in your life.

I would think that a lot of those professions would at least occasionally require the use of basic algebra. Electricians has to be able to figure the total load on a circuit, while that may just seem like addition and multiplication, there is a formula in which they have to substitute real numbers for and know how to solve. Fittness trainers may use algebra if they are trying to figure out how many calories one should eat based upon their weight, bodyfat percent, activity levels, etc. Loan officers ideally should be familiary with math through the calculus level - I took some fairly advanced finance classes in college and yes, they do include some calculous.

Again, we may not consider simple formulas as algebra because they may only use simple arithmatic, but thats all algebra is, it is learning how to solve a simple arithmatic formula that substitutes variables instead of numbers.

 

[Bodi]

I know that it is an accurate figure because I just counted them all.

I heard the wheels turning... :lol:

So obviously you don't have a job in retail, or construction, or building anything, or anything related to business, and you never create anything other than maybe poetry. I find it very hard to believe that you never use algebra.

I worked in fine dining, the wine industry and education (teacher) in my life. When did I use algebra?

 

[MaggieD]

I would think that a lot of those professions would at least occasionally require the use of basic algebra. Electricians has to be able to figure the total load on a circuit, while that may just seem like addition and multiplication, there is a formula in which they have to substitute real numbers for and know how to solve. Fittness trainers may use algebra if they are trying to figure out how many calories one should eat based upon their weight, bodyfat percent, activity levels, etc. Loan officers ideally should be familiary with math through the calculus level - I took some fairly advanced finance classes in college and yes, they do include some calculous.

Again, we may not consider simple formulas as algebra because they may only use simple arithmatic, but thats all algebra is, it is learning how to solve a simple arithmatic formula that substitutes variables instead of numbers.

Or plumbers, or janitors, or sanitation engineers, or landscapers, or judges, or mediators, or union negotiators, or advertising sales agents, or animal control workers, or mayors, or presidents, or the president, or senators or representatives or armored car drivers or detectives or bailiffs or hair stylists or cosmetologists or mechanics or bartenders or waitstaff or restaurant managers or barbers or fishermen or cartoonists or reporters . . .

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

I'm all for first year algebra, and trig and geometry, but beyond that, I'm thinking that Maggie has a point that it is probably a waste of time for all but those 10% or 20% who are reasonably academically inclined, particularly in math and science. First year algebra is really just learning to solve arithmatic problems that happen to contain variables, and is fairly applicable to real life and work problems, so sure, it should be required.

Not all states though require the same level of teaching in algebra. Or just read this:http://www.mathcurriculumcenter.org/PDFS/HSreport.pdf

It turns out that by reading that, I learned that not all states actually require Algebra to get a diploma. Instead they require an average of 3-4 years of mathematics. And now that I think about it in Oregon I was required 3 years of math credits to graduate. lol I just assumed that since I took algebra and beyond that everyone else did as well. So I contacted some old school mates that I am still in contact with and two never actually progressed to algebra and one exceeded me by a long shot and works for JPL. Hooray for us stoners!

 

[imagep]

I heard the wheels turning... :lol:



I worked in fine dining, the wine industry and education (teacher) in my life. When did I use algebra?

In fine dining did you never have any type of mathmatical formulas for anything? Like did you never have to look at a recipe and figure out that you need one part of this and two parts of that and three parts of the other and then realize that you may need to order some more of that expensive ingredient so you scribble a little math on the back of a box and figure out how much to order. It may not have felt like algebra, it may have felt more like addition and subtraction and multiplying and dividing, but in reality, you were working a simple algebra problem. Or maybe you even did it in your head. Regardless, you should probably thank your 9th grade algebra teacher for your ability to do so.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

There's 283,378,654 different obscure topics that we could all get a bit smarter at. It's unrealistic to think that anyone would become an knowlegeable about all those topics. The chance that the average Joe on the street has any interest in any one of those topics is just shy of his chance of winning the big money in the lottery. I would have to suggest that the topics that you mentioned are among the more obscure topics when it comes to day to day life outside of academia.

Outside of academia ... where people are not nearly as smart.

 

[tessaesque]

Jesus people... nobody is saying that algebra should be banned, just that it shouldn't be madatory.

Stop making these ridiculous arguments that society will devolve because Mikey didn't learn algebra...

...it is, quite literally, stupid.

My _____ is a world class physicist who you couldn't stop if you tried. Somehow he figured out how to be successful even though physics, calc, trig, stats, etc lasers, detectors, electro optics, etc was not "mandatory". Get over it already... the argument is lame.

I didn't say anything about mandatory, but since you mentioned it, perhaps we should make reading comprehension mandatory. And maybe outlaw hyperbolic idiocy, since it's so prevalent.

 

[Bodi]

I didn't say anything about mandatory, but since you mentioned it, perhaps we should make reading comprehension mandatory. And maybe outlaw hyperbolic idiocy, since it's so prevalent.

I didn't say that you said anything about mandatory... so, what was that about reading comprehension?

Originally Posted by tessaesque Seriously? Considering Algebra creates a solid basis for higher level math utilized in the creation of life-saving equipment, architecture standards, engineering diagrams, water transport systems, et. al. Yeah...I think it's pretty necessary. Singing kumbaya won't get clean water and electricity to third would villages. Having a solid mathematical foundation to base the rest off of certainly will.

"I think it's pretty necessary" certainly is an not that far off from mandatory though, considering your qualifying statements that third world villages will suffer if we don't study algebra and that life saving equipment will be in jeopardy of failing, etc.

I wasn't going off on you either... just the arguments that act as if algebra is so important to average people (in that they know it) or we are promoting a mediocre diet of learning.

 

[UtahBill]

So we should just skate by? Sorry. Some of us try to exceed the norm.

good for you...
2 of my siblings were poor readers, couldn't even handle fractions. should we force algebra down their throats?
It is sufficient that a portion of 'us' exceed the norm, heck, it is even normal....

 

[tessaesque]

I didn't say that you said anything about mandatory... so, what was that about reading comprehension?



"I think it's pretty necessary" certainly is an not that far off from mandatory though, considering your qualifying statements that third world villages will suffer if we don't study algebra and that life saving equipment will be in jeopardy of failing, etc.

I wasn't going off on you either... just the arguments that act as if algebra is so important to average people (in that they know it) or we are promoting a mediocre diet of learning.

And my qualifying statements were true...and within the context of the OP, which I quoted, more than appropriate.

"Average people" will use aspects of algebra in their every day lives, whether they realize it for what it is or not. When we rank 25th in the world in math, and when the US market will depend on skilled professions as opposed to unskilled labor (i.e. manufacturing) in the next several decades, anybody who dismisses the importance of algebra is either woefully uninformed or....well, that's about it, actually.

 

[UtahBill]

Seriously? Considering Algebra creates a solid basis for higher level math utilized in the creation of life-saving equipment, architecture standards, engineering diagrams, water transport systems, et. al. Yeah...I think it's pretty necessary. Singing kumbaya won't get clean water and electricity to third would villages. Having a solid mathematical foundation to base the rest off of certainly will.

the point is, some of us need it in our jobs, some of us do not.....if the education system can determine that your career path will not need any more than first semester algebra, you should not have to take second semester algebra, or any of the other math classes that would follow. Why clutter up the classroom, and waste resources that could better be applied to those who want and will need higher math. Granted, some will change their mind, and have to back up a bit to catch up, but that is better than having people like my 2 siblings sitting there with blank faces not comprehending a word of what is being taught. Their time could be better spent learning more of the real life everyday arithmetic that they are more likely to need.
32 years ago at my daughter's 8th birthday we took her and her friends to a pizza place. After we paid for the intitial order, my daughter asked for something else that added a bit to the total. The teenage girl, not the same employee we had already dealt with, couldn't do the math to determine change from a dollar for 63 cents. I handed her a dollar and we waited while she got pencil and paper and subtracted and still got it wrong. The place didn't have the modern cash registers, or it wasn't working, don't remember which. My 8 year old did the math in her head and told her we needed 37 cents change. If that teenager at age 16 can't figure out change for a dollar, she has no place in an algebra class.
Requiring algebra to graduate just sets up some kids to fail at something they will likely never use.
As I said earlier, once I got out of my Navy Tech schools, I rarely used anything higher than first semester algebra ever again...
Certainly I could have done without the geometry and calculus....

 

[Bodi]

In fine dining did you never have any type of mathmatical formulas for anything? Like did you never have to look at a recipe and figure out that you need one part of this and two parts of that and three parts of the other and then realize that you may need to order some more of that expensive ingredient so you scribble a little math on the back of a box and figure out how much to order. It may not have felt like algebra, it may have felt more like addition and subtraction and multiplying and dividing, but in reality, you were working a simple algebra problem. Or maybe you even did it in your head. Regardless, you should probably thank your 9th grade algebra teacher for your ability to do so.

If it was addition, subtraction, division or multiplying then it doesn't matter if it is also basic algebra... right?And I wasn't a chef even though I did do prep work... I was a fine dining food server for ten years at a couple of elite California restaurants.I probably have done some algebra, in all honesty... and it is fine that I know it, but the point still stands that I could EASILY go through life as a guy with a Masters, a four year degree living in multiple countries around the world, travelling, surfing, playing chess etc etc etc and never ever once NEED algebra.

 

[Bodi]

And my qualifying statements were true...and within the context of the OP, which I quoted, more than appropriate.

"Average people" will use aspects of algebra in their every day lives, whether they realize it for what it is or not. When we rank 25th in the world in math, and when the US market will depend on skilled professions as opposed to unskilled labor (i.e. manufacturing) in the next several decades, anybody who dismisses the importance of algebra is either woefully uninformed or....well, that's about it, actually.

First, we "rank" lower because of reasons beyond the ability of the education system's ability to fix. This is something repeatedly ignored when people "rank" the USA as if we have a problem. Illegal immigration and gangs are just the tip of the issue...

Secondly... I have seen us ranked as high as 13th in math and 14th overall.

And most importantly... skilled professionals will find out how to succeed regardless of whether or not algebra is taught, like I said... my ____ and millions of other just figured it out because it is their strength. They love it. Physics, horticulture and statistics would help out "average people" too but, like algebra, average people don't need it in order to be successfull in their daily lives... not even close.

So you see woefully uninformed and I see creating issues for next to ridiculous reasons... and I know that I am right, so I guess that kinda ends the discussion unless you are actually able to back up your stuff and explain how I am wrong.

Good luck...

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

So, let me understand this. You think that if someone doesn't take or Algebra or fails Algebra, they are destined to be losers? If that is your argument for keeping Algebra in public schools as a requirement? You fail. And you're arrogant.

No I do not think that if you fail anything that you are a loser. I only think that people who do not try to better themselves are losers.

Im guessing though that the majority of the people working at fast food chains do not know any algebra. For two reasons though the first being that they are still in school the second being that in most cases if they have any college education they are at least in a slightly better job.

Most if not all colleges require that students take algebra, if they didnt test well in math. I think its silly to disadvantage ones self when they could simply learn a subject that would be of great use to anyone. I dont buy the whole you can get by without knowing algebra argument. People can also get by while being illiterate but why should anyone just get by? This is why I mentioned bums since they just get by. Some people are happy with digging ditches or flipping hamburgers to each their own and all that, but shouldnt society strive for more than just getting by?
I mean the people that want to just get by could just take the GED test and be done with it.

Im a little puzzled why anyone would fight for the right to remain ignorant on any given subject? Is this what society has come to? Whats next should we also cut advanced language arts too? No one really needs to know how to spell since they wont be spelling anything without spell check anyways. Or I know lets just Have kids go to school until the 5th grade since not very many people seem to advance any further than that.

 

[Darrell]

I find Algerbra helpful and useful and I am about to be in the 11th grade.

 

[haymarket]

Im guessing though that the majority of the people working at fast food chains do not know any algebra. For two reasons though the first being that they are still in school the second being that in most cases if they have any college education they are at least in a slightly better job.

Given that almost all ninth grade kids take Algebra, the opposite would be true about fast food workers. They would have almost all had it.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Given that almost all ninth grade kids take Algebra, the opposite would be true about fast food workers. They would have almost all had it.

Yea thats what I thought too up until I read this: http://www.mathcurriculumcenter.org/PDFS/HSreport.pdf

It turns out that not all states require algebra instead they require a certain amount of years of math in High school. And most likely fast food joints are full of those students that did not graduate in the first place.

 

[Sarcogito]

I have never considered algebra higher level mathematics. While I agree that the vast majority of student won't need calculus later in life, algebra is a handy tool to have in one's belt.

 

[Mathematician]

No I do not think that if you fail anything that you are a loser. I only think that people who do not try to better themselves are losers.

The country is pretty full of losers nowadays. People constantly complain about things they can fix, but they're just too lazy. Obesity and being well prepared for the job market are merely two examples.

Im a little puzzled why anyone would fight for the right to remain ignorant on any given subject? Is this what society has come to? Whats next should we also cut advanced language arts too? No one really needs to know how to spell since they wont be spelling anything without spell check anyways. Or I know lets just Have kids go to school until the 5th grade since not very many people seem to advance any further than that.

Don't you love how people will whine about education, the problem typically being their lack of sufficient effort, and 5 years later be complaining about the salary of their job or lack of work? They wonder why jobs are shipped overseas, because they're too stupid to realize that they overprice themselves in terms of employment value. I'll buy your services for $20/hr when you're worth it, and your value is determined mostly by your education and experience in an area of expertise.