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Is a fetus a human being?

Fantasea said:
Don't you find it novel that an idea you espouse today was eclipsed more than four hundred years ago? I do.

Do you find it novel that many of Shakespears plays are...FICTION?

Fiction is Fiction, just because it was written a long time ago, still doesn't mean its correct, true, and binding.
 
Fantasea said:
Human life commences at conception when the egg and the sperm unite to form a new, unique fully human child which may be referred to by any one of several terms which are used to denote its biological "age bracket". Left undisturbed, it will grow and develop in the womb and, in the fullness of time, will emerge to take its rightful place among us.

Im sorry, I don't attribute a ball of rapidly dividing cells as fully human.

Wait, im going to go ahead and throw this in too.

REGUARDLESS OF WHAT KIND OF 'DNA' IT HAS.

I know you pro-lifers love to throw that in there.

"Hrpm! Well... It has Human DNA. So its a human!"

My bloodcells have human DNA too, so if I cut myself, I drop a little human?
Oh yeah... The Potential to be argument.
An egg has the potential to be a chicken. But its not a chicken. Its an egg.
Oh.. its different because we are not chickens. Explain why our developmental stages should be categorized any differently than animals.
Because were Human's you say? Thats not good enough.
 
Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
Who cares if eventually it will become a member of society? A vegetable is a human as well, and it's absurd to treat it the same as a non-vegetable. If you don't think so, your nuts. If you do think so, then you admit there is some other criterion other than "human membership."


A vegetable is a human? HUH?
 
Caine said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
Human life commences at conception when the egg and the sperm unite to form a new, unique fully human child which may be referred to by any one of several terms which are used to denote its biological "age bracket". Left undisturbed, it will grow and develop in the womb and, in the fullness of time, will emerge to take its rightful place among us.
Im sorry, I don't attribute a ball of rapidly dividing cells as fully human.

Wait, im going to go ahead and throw this in too.

REGUARDLESS OF WHAT KIND OF 'DNA' IT HAS.

I know you pro-lifers love to throw that in there.

"Hrpm! Well... It has Human DNA. So its a human!"

My bloodcells have human DNA too, so if I cut myself, I drop a little human?
Oh yeah... The Potential to be argument.
An egg has the potential to be a chicken. But its not a chicken. Its an egg.
Oh.. its different because we are not chickens. Explain why our developmental stages should be categorized any differently than animals.
Because were Human's you say? Thats not good enough.
Here's an excerpt from what is an excellent "short course" in human biology. If you can refute it, go ahead. If you can't, then blind adherence to your present belief would be pointless, wouldn't it?

Be sure to visit the source and read the whole thing.

"To begin with, scientifically something very radical occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization — the change from a simple part of one human being (i.e., a sperm) and a simple part of another human being (i.e., an oocyte — usually referred to as an "ovum" or "egg"), which simply possess "human life", to a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, whole living human being (an embryonic single-cell human zygote). That is, upon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced."

Source: http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html

It's a worthwhile read for all.
 
Caine said:
Do you find it novel that many of Shakespears plays are...FICTION?

Fiction is Fiction, just because it was written a long time ago, still doesn't mean its correct, true, and binding.
Stepped on your toe, did I? Sorry.
 
Fantasea said:
Fantasea said:
Here's an excerpt from what is an excellent "short course" in human biology. If you can refute it, go ahead. If you can't, then blind adherence to your present belief would be pointless, wouldn't it?

That is a very interesting site....but the question remains concerning what indeed, constitutes a person, and thus murder. I am of the opinion that where there is no human ability to think, there is no person. From what I can see through research into the differences between our closest relatives, which are killed regularly with no uproar, and ouselves, the critical component that seperates the two is the ability to think and express as a human.
If I am incorrect in this, please point out my inaccuracy.
 
George_Washington said:
A vegetable is a human? HUH?

Vegetable is a term used for a human who has lost most of thier "humanly" abilities.

Vegetables don't talk/walk/communicate/think.
They just kinda sit there starring at the wall.

My description may not be completely accurate, and I don't claim it is. But this gives you an overall idea.

Kinda like that Schivo broad.

Who I think they did the right think to stop feeding her and wasting medical supplies and insurance money.
 
Fantasea said:
Caine said:
Here's an excerpt from what is an excellent "short course" in human biology. If you can refute it, go ahead. If you can't, then blind adherence to your present belief would be pointless, wouldn't it?

Be sure to visit the source and read the whole thing.

"To begin with, scientifically something very radical occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization — the change from a simple part of one human being (i.e., a sperm) and a simple part of another human being (i.e., an oocyte — usually referred to as an "ovum" or "egg"), which simply possess "human life", to a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, whole living human being (an embryonic single-cell human zygote). That is, upon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced."

Source: http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html

It's a worthwhile read for all.

Im sorry, after reading this site for a few minutes, then scrolling to the bottom, I immediately could tell the bias in the words of the scripter.

A whole human being is an infant.
A one cell zygote is a one cell zygote. It is not a WHOLE human being.
Saying so, is attempting to use your scientific degree to stretch the truth in order to support your political beliefs.
 
A whole human being is an infant.
A one cell zygote is a one cell zygote. It is not a WHOLE human being.
Saying so, is attempting to use your scientific degree to stretch the truth in order to support your political beliefs.

It is that "whole" human being.

And... does this mean that once the single cell divides, your argument no longer applies?


Thing about abortion is, your personhood is defined by the person that kills you. Thats a shockingly scary concept.
 
M14 Shooter said:
It is that "whole" human being.

And... does this mean that once the single cell divides, your argument no longer applies?


Thing about abortion is, your personhood is defined by the person that kills you. Thats a shockingly scary concept.

No...
My argument no longer applies when the fully developed organisim is ready to be delivered, and thus, is delivered and gets a friggin birth certificate.
One should not be held accountable for something that isn't an individual.
Likewise, something that isn't an individual should not recieve rights to life, if rights to liberty and personal happiness do not apply to them.

Now, are you going to debate me on whether or not a zygote can experience happiness when it has no brain to function these things? How about an embryo? A fetus?
 
Caine said:
No...
My argument no longer applies when the fully developed organisim is ready to be delivered, and thus, is delivered and gets a friggin birth certificate.

Interesting.
How is it a human life 10 seconds after it is born, but not a human life 10 seconds before?
Other than its location, what has changed?
Does your status as a "human life" depend on where you live?

One should not be held accountable for something that isn't an individual.
Likewise, something that isn't an individual should not recieve rights to life, if rights to liberty and personal happiness do not apply to them.
How is an unborn baby not an 'individual'?
How is it not a human life?

Now, are you going to debate me on whether or not a zygote can experience happiness when it has no brain to function these things? How about an embryo? A fetus?
No, because these things are relevant to whether or not something is a human life.

Is it human?
Is is alive?
Then its a human life.
As such, it should be treated like all other human lives.
 
tecoyah said:
That is a very interesting site....but the question remains concerning what indeed, constitutes a person, and thus murder. I am of the opinion that where there is no human ability to think, there is no person. From what I can see through research into the differences between our closest relatives, which are killed regularly with no uproar, and ouselves, the critical component that seperates the two is the ability to think and express as a human.

If I am incorrect in this, please point out my inaccuracy.
First, I don’t use the word “murder” in connection with abortion. Yes, it’s the taking of a human life, however, because of the fact that abortion has been elevated to the status of a “right” by the Supreme Court, those who avail themselves of that right cannot be charged with a crime. Rather than accuse expectant mothers, which only makes the argument more difficult than it has to be, I prefer to direct my complaint at the source of the “problem”, the Supreme Court, which, incidentally, is also the source of a solution.

You state an opinion, which, of course, you are entitled to do. However, I believe that more than an opinion is required. Facts are required; especially when the stakes are about a million and a half tiny corpses each year.

The question is whether the occupant of a womb is a person.

From the standpoint of biology, the occupant of a womb is a living human being from the moment of conception. Barring any interruption, natural or deliberate, it seamlessly performs all of the tasks required for it to grow and develop to the point at which it announces to the mother that it is ready to leave the womb. I’ve never seen these biological facts disputed by a qualified biological, medical, or scientific authority.

If this is the case, than how can the practice of legalized abortion be justified?

Certainly, the mere thought of killing a living, unborn, human child would be repulsive. This was understood by the founders of NARAL, the National Abortion & Reproductive Rights Action League. (Its name has been changes several times but the acronym stays the samne.)

Prior to its advocacy, were the terms embryo or fetus more than biological terms used by the professionals in their work? Of course not. But NARAL found them to ideal terms for the de-personalizing of the occupant of the womb. Further de-personalization was achieved by preaching that these entities lacked the qualifications for what they termed “personhood”. Since they were not yet persons, they were not entitled to any rights or protections and could be discarded much the same as yesterday’s trash.

Is there a fact here? No, there is not. What there is, however, is simply an unfounded statement, amplified and repeated until it worked its way into the politically correct lexicon of nonsensical conceptions.

Think about it. A group of advocates decides that humanity should be divided into persons and non-persons. From whence does this group derive its authority to make so profound a decision which, thus far, in the US, has resulted in the death of nearly fifty million unborn children? There is no higher power which could have conferred such authority upon it. The authority was simply usurped.

Is it within the province of politics to assign to any human the power of life or death over another human? The only way it can be done is to declare that at one point, a human is human, while at another point, a human is non-human.

There is an interesting discussion on this subject by one of the founders of NARAL.

It begins this way:

"I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimises my credentials to speak to you with some authority on the issue. I was one of the founders of the National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws (NARAL) in the U.S. in 1968."​

You may read it here: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html
 
Since there is no changing anyones mind on the matter.
I have one final question for everyone before I stop reading this board, which has gone in thousands of little circles with its debates much like all the other boards, and I have heard nothing to change my mind on the matter.

I ask this.

For Pro-Lifers..... What motivates you so badly to demand a change of the law that will restrict the action of abortion on all of the people in our nation?

Also, I understand you are against abortion, but abortion is never mandatory, and if you do not like it, you do not have to have an abortion. Why is it so important to you to take this choice away from others as well, when you do not know this person and don't even know that the procedure has been conducted? What affect does this have on your life, to be so important for you to want it outlawed on everyone?

Im not trying to be uncivil, I just want to try to understand the mentality of Pro-Life people a little more, and understand what drives them to take away someone elses right to chose when it has no effect on the pro-lifer.
 
This seems to be the crux of the site you linked:

Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires
all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some
American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by
carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the
physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful
destruction of what is undeniably human life.


unfortunately it does little to answer the underlying question I asked....and you did not remark on it either. Am I Incorrect in my Understanding that personhood requires Human ability to Think and Express as a human?

Or

Does Personhood begin with the creation of a Zygote in the Womb...maybe when Limbs begin to form, or the heart starts to beat?

Without an answer to these questions....there is nothing but Dogmatic intercourse.
 
As I have read your contributions to this debate...I request you read Mine, here is an excerpt to see if it interests you:

Every one of us began from a dot. A fertilized egg is roughly the size of the period at the end of this sentence. The momentous meeting of sperm and egg generally occurs in one of the two fallopian tubes. One cell becomes two, two become four, and so on—an exponentiation of base-2 arithmetic. By the tenth day the fertilized egg has become a kind of hollow sphere wandering off to another realm: the womb. It destroys tissue in its path. It sucks blood from capillaries. It bathes itself in maternal blood, from which it extracts oxygen and nutrients. It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the uterus.

# By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual period, the forming embryo is about 2 millimeters long and is developing various body parts. Only at this stage does it begin to be dependent on a rudimentary placenta. It looks a little like a segmented worm.

# By the end of the fourth week, it's about 5 millimeters (about 1/5 inch) long. It's recognizable now as a vertebrate, its tube-shaped heart is beginning to beat, something like the gill arches of a fish or an amphibian become conspicuous, and there is a pronounced tail. It looks rather like a newt or a tadpole. This is the end of the first month after conception.

# By the fifth week, the gross divisions of the brain can be distinguished. What will later develop into eyes are apparent, and little buds appear—on their way to becoming arms and legs.

# By the sixth week, the embryo is 13 millimeteres (about ½ inch) long. The eyes are still on the side of the head, as in most animals, and the reptilian face has connected slits where the mouth and nose eventually will be.

# By the end of the seventh week, the tail is almost gone, and sexual characteristics can be discerned (although both sexes look female). The face is mammalian but somewhat piglike.

# By the end of the eighth week, the face resembles that of a primate but is still not quite human. Most of the human body parts are present in their essentials. Some lower brain anatomy is well-developed. The fetus shows some reflex response to delicate stimulation.

# By the tenth week, the face has an unmistakably human cast. It is beginning to be possible to distinguish males from females. Nails and major bone structures are not apparent until the third month.

# By the fourth month, you can tell the face of one fetus from that of another. Quickening is most commonly felt in the fifth month. The bronchioles of the lungs do not begin developing until approximately the sixth month, the alveoli still later.

So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.

Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.

Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month.

By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy--near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this--however alive and active they may be--lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think.

Acquiescing in the killing of any living creature, especially one that might later become a baby, is troublesome and painful. But we've rejected the extremes of "always" and "never," and this puts us--like it or not--on the slippery slope. If we are forced to choose a developmental criterion, then this is where we draw the line: when the beginning of characteristically human thinking becomes barely possible.


And the Link...should you want it.

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml
 
For Pro-Lifers..... What motivates you so badly to demand a change of the law that will restrict the action of abortion on all of the people in our nation?
Because it is inherently wrong with taking an innocent human life for no other reason that you chose to do so.
 
M14 Shooter said:
Because it is inherently wrong with taking an innocent human life for no other reason that you chose to do so.

How does it affect you?
 
Caine said:
How does it affect you?
It doesnt HAVE to effect me for it to be a sound argument - the statement stands on its own, regardless of any effect on me personally, one way or another.

You DO agree with the statement, dont you?
It IS inherently wrong to take an innocent human life for no other reason that you chose to do so -- isnt it?
 
Caine said:
Fantasea said:
Im sorry, after reading this site for a few minutes, then scrolling to the bottom, I immediately could tell the bias in the words of the scripter.

A whole human being is an infant.
A one cell zygote is a one cell zygote. It is not a WHOLE human being.
Saying so, is attempting to use your scientific degree to stretch the truth in order to support your political beliefs.
Brilliant deduction. However, you have not provided a single shred of fact to refute the biological fact presented.

If you are able to do so, please do. If not, your argument is no more than unsubstantiated opinion.

Your choice.
 
Caine said:
Since there is no changing anyones mind on the matter.
I have one final question for everyone before I stop reading this board, which has gone in thousands of little circles with its debates much like all the other boards, and I have heard nothing to change my mind on the matter.

I ask this.

For Pro-Lifers..... What motivates you so badly to demand a change of the law that will restrict the action of abortion on all of the people in our nation?

Also, I understand you are against abortion, but abortion is never mandatory, and if you do not like it, you do not have to have an abortion. Why is it so important to you to take this choice away from others as well, when you do not know this person and don't even know that the procedure has been conducted? What affect does this have on your life, to be so important for you to want it outlawed on everyone?

Im not trying to be uncivil, I just want to try to understand the mentality of Pro-Life people a little more, and understand what drives them to take away someone elses right to chose when it has no effect on the pro-lifer.
You say take away the right to choose. To choose what? To choose to sentence an unborn child to capital punishment for the offense of showing up in the womb at an innopportune time.

Life has value. Life should be preserved. The pile of tiny human corpses is nearly fifty million high.

Is that reason enough?

That's reason enough.

If your mind has not been changed, then you have chosen to ignore all of the biological facts presented and have preferred, instead, the empty emotional politically correct arguments which abound.

That is your fault, not mine.
 
tecoyah said:
This seems to be the crux of the site you linked:

Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires
all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some
American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by
carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the
physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful
destruction of what is undeniably human life.


unfortunately it does little to answer the underlying question I asked....and you did not remark on it either. Am I Incorrect in my Understanding that personhood requires Human ability to Think and Express as a human?

Or

Does Personhood begin with the creation of a Zygote in the Womb...maybe when Limbs begin to form, or the heart starts to beat?

Without an answer to these questions....there is nothing but Dogmatic intercourse.
Define "personhood". Then we'll be able to discuss it.
 
Fantasea said:
You say take away the right to choose. To choose what? To choose to sentence an unborn child to capital punishment for the offense of showing up in the womb at an innopportune time.

Life has value. Life should be preserved. The pile of tiny human corpses is nearly fifty million high.

Is that reason enough?

That's reason enough.

If your mind has not been changed, then you have chosen to ignore all of the biological facts presented and have preferred, instead, the empty emotional politically correct arguments which abound.

That is your fault, not mine.

Speaking of ignoring Biological Information (note I did not say fact)....did you by chance...decide to read what I posted. I would be interested in your take on the Data. Even more so now that you have said this:


Life has value. Life should be preserved. The pile of tiny human corpses is nearly fifty million high.


If life has such Value....I do hope you are vegan.
 
Fantasea said:
Define "personhood". Then we'll be able to discuss it.

I will define it again as I see it.

The ability to think as a human being....the Data I provided for you encapsulates it far more eloquantly than I can....should you decide to read it.
 
tecoyah said:
I will define it again as I see it.

The ability to think as a human being....the Data I provided for you encapsulates it far more eloquantly than I can....should you decide to read it.

What does 'think as a human being' mean?
If your argument is sound, why can't we kill newborns?
 
M14 Shooter said:
What does 'think as a human being' mean?
If your argument is sound, why can't we kill newborns?

Because a fetus begins to show the wave patterns of Human thought process at around the six month mark of developement....and thus in my opinion, is a thinking Human Being. This patten has been measured and confirmed in scientific study. You may find the Data on the previous page of this thread.
 
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