Iraqi PM: Iraq can defend itself (1 Viewer)

[Kandahar]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060525/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

"Our forces are capable of taking over the security in all Iraqi provinces within a year-and-a-half," al-Maliki said in a written statement, in which he acknowledged that security forces needed more recruits, training and equipment.

Hopefully if Bush is able to save a little face through more statements like this, we'll be able to get out of Iraq soon. I just wonder how much al-Maliki was pressured into making this statement. Obviously Iraq is years away from any kind of stable situation.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

If this is actually true we should see significant troop reduction in the next year. Sounds very positive.

 

[PeteEU]

The statement does not mean its true.... far from it.

 

[Kandahar]

The statement does not mean its true.... far from it.

Oh I completely agree. My point was that hopefully this paves the way to withdrawing American troops from Iraq.

 

[BWG]

Oh I completely agree. My point was that hopefully this paves the way to withdrawing American troops from Iraq.

Yeah, at this point I don't even care if the Bushies claim victory, as long as we get those men and women back home. :yes:

 

[Deegan]

Of course he is going to say they are ready to defend their country, the insurgents are just waiting for any sign of weakness, and they will pounce on this new government. They don't even know if they can completely trust the men they have in their military right now, much less think they are prepared to handle their own security. There are obviously many insurgents, loyalists, even terrorists, mixed in with these military groups, hence the well planned executions, and bombings we see daily. It will take a long time to form a loyal, trustworthy military in that country, one that will answer to their government, and only their government. But I suspect we can start bringing some men home soon, especially from the south and north, but the large majority still have a lot of work still yet to do.

 

[SixStringHero]

Why can't people just admit to good news when they see it?

Sometimes I feel that people really don't want us to succeed.

 

[Deegan]

Why can't people just admit to good news when they see it?

Sometimes I feel that people really don't want us to succeed.

It is good news, but there is still much to do, and the American people, as well as the people of Iraq, are going to have to deal with that fact.

 

[PeteEU]

Why can't people just admit to good news when they see it?

Sometimes I feel that people really don't want us to succeed.

Just because someone claims to have cured cancer does not mean its true does it now?

Point is, that even the US military does not think that the Iraqies are anywhere near ready to take over thier own security and thats the "positive" part of the political spectrum.

The latest study done by an independant group released a day or so after this statement, casts serious doubt about the ability and more importantly the loyality of the present Iraqi forces. Its no use training thousands of troops to take over security if thier loyalities are with tribal leaders, religious leaders, terrorists or other goverements in the region.

Do I want the Iraq experiment to succed.. hell yea, but I also know that the cards are seriously stacked against any succes and the odds are getting worse with every day the sectarian violence escalates out of control and no amount of spin can change that.

 

[oldreliable67]

The latest study done by an independant group released a day or so after this statement, casts serious doubt about the ability and more importantly the loyality of the present Iraqi forces.

Can you provide a link to that study? If it is the study that I read about (but read only a news bit on it), it referred to the present state of the Iraqi forces, while the Iraqi PM referred to the end of 2007, IIRC. Please correct me if I have this wrong!

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Just because someone claims to have cured cancer does not mean its true does it now?

Folks don't want to believe there might be something possitive going on in Iraq - Yet, they don't mind believing conspiracies about 9/11 being an inside job...

It seems that most folks on this forum have a preconceived idea what the facts are & what the truth is...if they agree with the basic sentiment of a story they'll believe it without confirmation --- if they don't; they'll call it a lie, false or inaccurate without any facts to substantiate their claim...

welcome to political opinion debate...:2razz:

 

[oldreliable67]

Folks don't want to believe there might be something possitive going on in Iraq - Yet, they don't mind believing conspiracies about 9/11 being an inside job...

It seems that most folks on this forum have a preconceived idea what the facts are & what the truth is...if they agree with the basic sentiment of a story they'll believe it without confirmation --- if they don't; they'll call it a lie, false or inaccurate without any facts to substantiate their claim...

welcome to political opinion debate...:2razz:

Indeed! You may only have a bit over 400 posts, but you are writing like a veteran, er, Professor, or whatever, you get the drift!

 

[MSgt]

The latest study done by an independant group released a day or so after this statement, casts serious doubt about the ability and more importantly the loyality of the present Iraqi forces. Its no use training thousands of troops to take over security if thier loyalities are with tribal leaders, religious leaders, terrorists or other goverements in the region.

:roll: Whatever study you are refering to is a "current" sentiment and it is correct. Their doubts of the future, however, are called forecasted "opinions," not facts and they are certainly not based on what is happening. Most independent studies do not have the insight and sources needed to get the whole truth. (How many independent surveys have written on how wrecked all of Iraq is, but never left Baghdad to discover all of Iraq?)

The plan to turn over security to Iraqi forces towards the end of the year has been a plan for months now. Troops on the ground have been well aware of it and so has the Iraqi military. This is the goal. Currently, a new initiative is taking place all over Iraq - "put an Iraqi face on every action." Where ever missions are active, Iraqi forces accompany American soldiers and Marines.

Here is some truth from the ground.....

Sunni Troops Graduate From U.S.-Run Training​

American military says recruitment of Anbar province forces significant
By Joseph Giordono, Stars and Stripes
HABBANIYAH, Iraq — The first all-Sunni class of Iraqi army trainees graduated from an American-run basic training course here Sunday, marking what U.S. military officials called a significant step in rebuilding the Iraqi security forces.

Some 978 men — including more than 800 from Fallujah — were sworn in as privates in the new Iraqi army, the first cadre of a planned 6,500 Sunni troops to be recruited from and trained in Anbar province.

“The significance is that Anbar province has been the heart of a lot of the insurgency. By recruiting and training military-age males from Anbar, you’re eliminating a potential recruiting ground for the insurgency,” said U.S. Army Lt. Col. Steven Greaf, who commanded the basic training center.

Bringing more of a sectarian balance to the Iraqi security forces has long been a goal of the American military command in Iraq. The Iraqi police — and to a lesser extent, the Iraqi army — is a Shiite-dominated force that many in Anbar accuse of heavy-handed tactics and abuse against Sunni residents. Thousands of Iraqi army troops already operate in Anbar, but their ranks are made up mostly of Shiites from Baghdad and other areas.

U.S. officials say more than 100,000 of the projected 130,000 needed for the new Iraqi army have been recruited and have finished at least some training.

Sectarian violence in the country threatened to break into open civil war after the February bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra. But U.S. military leaders believe that possibility has largely passed, and they look at steps such as Sunday’s graduation as key stages in a long-term process.

The ceremony began at midmorning, with the Iraqis formed into ranks in the middle of an old horse racing stadium. All the troops had uniforms and boots, and all wore variations of white gloves, including many who sported white socks or old surgical gloves on their hands.

Various dignitaries, including the Anbar province governor and the commander of Multi-National Force West — U.S. Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Richard C. Zilmer — sat in the grandstand, which also included a few dozen recruits who hadn’t completed the course.

The ceremony began with the singing of prayers from the Koran, followed by a moment of silence for those killed fighting the insurgency. After an array of speeches, the new Iraqi army troops marched around the track as fellow soldiers cheered them on and shouted chants of unity and allegiance to Iraq.

As the troops re-formed their ranks on the field, about a dozen recruits ran front and center. They formed a human pyramid, with one young soldier standing atop two rows of men. He pulled an Iraqi flag from under his uniform shirt, kissed it, then held it aloft, shouting “Allahu Akbar!” (“God is great!”) and “Long live Iraq!”

After the ceremony, word spread through the new troops that they might not, in fact, be deployed in Fallujah, but in other, more violent areas of Anbar. Many of the new troops threw their hats in anger or ripped off their uniform shirts and waved them over their heads.

Then, as an Iraqi sergeant major tried to calm the troops, an unlikely figure grabbed the microphone. Gen. Sha’aban, commander of the Anbar province Iraqi police force, exhorted the soldiers not to give up. As a thousand men crouched and sat in front of him, he told them that they serve all of Iraq, that Iraqis from Basra, for instance, serve in Fallujah and vice versa.

After answering several minutes of questions posed by a representative chosen from among the new soldiers, it appeared Sha’aban had assuaged most of their concerns.

Some U.S. troops at the ceremony said the sectarian makeup of the graduating class was overemphasized.
“Sunni and Shiite, that doesn’t matter. What matters is that these soldiers are from Fallujah, that they are volunteering to protect their own homes,” said U.S. Marine Corps Capt. Bryce Essary, a Military Transition Team member who works with Iraqi forces in Fallujah.

“The city leaders in Fallujah really stepped up and got the people to come out.”
Los Angeles Times
May 1, 2006


Now, I can't provide a link, but that shouldn't matter. I didn't sit here and make this up. This story suggests a lot of promise and any independant study that takes from this and reports strict negativity is being irresponsible to the truth. The key to a unified Iraq will start with a Shi'ite/Sunni unified military. Men in arms band together, especially when they face a common enemy against their country. Recognizing that this is all of their country is the first step.

 

[Volker]

I can provide a link of what happened there.

"We had volunteered to serve our cities and communities, particularly our families in Ramadi and Fallujah, who have been mistreated by the present soldiers of the Iraqi army, who come in large part from Shiite areas," said one of the recruits, Ahmad Mahmoud Azzawi. "If they disperse us to Shiite and Kurdish areas, we will not go. Frankly, we would much rather go back to our land, to plant and reap our produce, than to serve others."

Looks like, the motive to join the Iraqi army is to save their families from the same Iraqi army. Another thing is, that there is obviously not enough trust in the new Iraqi soldiers to let them serve at their home towns.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050100854.html

 

[MSgt]

I can provide a link of what happened there.



Looks like, the motive to join the Iraqi army is to save their families from the same Iraqi army. Another thing is, that there is obviously not enough trust in the new Iraqi soldiers to let them serve at their home towns.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050100854.html

Thanks for the link.

That was exactly my point. Unity will come from the military first. That is the immediate focus. It's a work in progress. A history of sectorial pride and bigotry does not simply wash off (even America had it's time of civil unrest that was based on passed down traditions of hate, bigotry and racism). Those that join and are sent to protect other areas of their country will begin to see that all of Iraq is their responsibility. I did not join the Marines to protect Florida or only white people. Fortunately I live in a robust civilization that recognizes nationalism over tribe, city, or religious preference. You people who are looking for some great over night miracle and rush to declare total and extreme failure at every stumble, need to start looking elsewhere.

Also, I don't know if it's on purpose or by mistake, but you misrepresent what is happening through your above sentences. The top of the article clearly states..."Some Sunni Soldiers Say They Won't Serve Outside Home Areas." It is not as absolute as you portray. This is exactly how rumors and lies gets spread.

 

[Volker]

Also, I don't know if it's on purpose or by mistake, but you misrepresent what is happening through your above sentences. The top of the article clearly states..."Some Sunni Soldiers Say They Won't Serve Outside Home Areas." It is not as absolute as you portray. This is exactly how rumors and lies gets spread.

It is pretty clear, that this was said by one Iraqi soldier. He uses "we", but I did not say, he talks for everyone. There is no rumor and no lie.

The second sentence I wrote refers to this one from the same article.

But army commanders worry that if the men serve in their own home towns, they could be co-opted by insurgents.

 

[MSgt]

It is pretty clear, that this was said by one Iraqi soldier. He uses "we", but I did not say, he talks for everyone. There is no rumor and no lie.

Alright...alright...my bad. I just said that's how they start.

The second sentence I wrote refers to this one from the same article.

The second sentence is correct. I said this. Sectoral pride and prejudice doesn't just wash a way over night and we know it. But what is most important...they know it. They have to see "Iraq" as their responsibility for protection...not just there individual towns and religious group.


Perhaps a Civil Rights movement is the answer. It's what every one else has to do.

 

[PeteEU]

Sunni Troops Graduate From U.S.-Run Training

says it all. When you start distinguishing troops by religious or ethnic affiliation then you have a problem.

When loyalities go Clan > religion > country.. that is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Deegan]

says it all. When you start distinguishing troops by religious or ethnic affiliation then you have a problem.

When loyalities go Clan > religion > country.. that is a disaster waiting to happen.

And exactly why they need our military as an example of what to do, and what not to do. These folks just need direction, and they need the freedom to make some mistakes, and then learn from them, we offer them that time, and the freedom in which to do so. I grow tired of this arrogant thinking, that these people lack the discipline, the intelligence, the motivation to want this freedom, it's really an ignorant attitude to hold.

 

[MSgt]

says it all. When you start distinguishing troops by religious or ethnic affiliation then you have a problem.

When loyalities go Clan > religion > country.. that is a disaster waiting to happen.

I see as always you've invented a reason to bash America.


I will once again provide for you some understanding.

All Iraqi troops must see themselves as Iraqis first...Sunni/Shi'ite second. This isn't going to happen as long as Sunni's were not willing to join up. They have been joining up since the end of last year (a direct corrolation to the insurgency showing their true face and killing Sunni Muslims alomng with Shi'ites). The significance of the article was to show that the Iraqi military is moving towards a more needed diversity and that real attempts are being made to not segregate the sects to their respective regions.

Your second sentence was correct, but accompanied with the first, it is less meaningful. This would be how those lies and rumors start I was just telling Volker about. The implication that the U.S. is seperating them is irresponsible and only serves your personal needs.

Surley you can debate without the unnecessary snobbery.

 

[Volker]

Alright...alright...my bad. I just said that's how they start.

No problem.

The second sentence is correct. I said this. Sectoral pride and prejudice doesn't just wash a way over night and we know it. But what is most important...they know it. They have to see "Iraq" as their responsibility for protection...not just there individual towns and religious group.

Yes, this is the way how to make things better.

Perhaps a Civil Rights movement is the answer. It's what every one else has to do.

This is an interesting idea.

 

[Kandahar]

And exactly why they need our military as an example of what to do, and what not to do. These folks just need direction, and they need the freedom to make some mistakes, and then learn from them, we offer them that time, and the freedom in which to do so. I grow tired of this arrogant thinking, that these people lack the discipline, the intelligence, the motivation to want this freedom, it's really an ignorant attitude to hold.

It isn't arrogant to think that they lack the motivation/intelligence for democracy. Just because democracy is the best form of government for the United States, doesn't mean that it's universally the best form of government. In the Arab world, democracies would inevitably elect Islamists. Most of the Arab dictators (with a couple exceptions) are more liberal than their constituents, and actually allow more freedom than the people would allow themselves if they could choose.

Allowing Iraqis the "freedom to make some mistakes" sounds nice, except meanwhile we're wasting billions of dollars and thousands of American lives that would be much more productive back home.

And what makes you think that electing Islamists is a mistake that can be learned from and easily corrected? It's not the same as Americans electing a bad president. If Iraq's liberal democrats lose an election, no big deal, they hand over the reins to the democratically-elected Islamofascists. If Iraq's Islamofascists lose an election, that power is extremely unlikely to flow the other way.

The last thing the Middle East needs right now is more democracy. Maybe some day they will. In the meantime, give me Hosni Mubarak over the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Navy Pride]

Why can't people just admit to good news when they see it?

Sometimes I feel that people really don't want us to succeed.

The left in this country does not want us to succeed.It is their worse nightmare becasue they would have to admit President Bush was right all along......

 

[Kandahar]

The left in this country does not want us to succeed.It is their worse nightmare becasue they would have to admit President Bush was right all along......

Umm, the "good news" in this case has nothing to do with success...quite the opposite. Obviously Iraq isn't actually able to defend itself and won't be anytime soon; the good news comes from the fact that the Iraqi PM has basically set the tone for American troops withdrawing.

 

[MSgt]

Umm, the "good news" in this case has nothing to do with success...quite the opposite. Obviously Iraq isn't actually able to defend itself and won't be anytime soon; the good news comes from the fact that the Iraqi PM has basically set the tone for American troops withdrawing.

The tone was set before this.:roll: If you'll remember, I've been trying tell you people since last year that this year is going to be significant. It's as simple as watching the pieces on the board move.