Iraq war utterly futile as war on terror. London terrorists home grown.

[robin]

couldn't find enough poster's sympathetic to your words on previous threads robin? had to start a new one? hmmmm here, let me direct it for you...

The US is terrorists.. blah, blah, blah

They kill civilians... blah blah blah

Iraq has no terrorists.. blah, blah, blah

Sadaam wasn't evil.. America is.. blah blah blah

hmmm did I cover it all? Nope, forgot one... US bombed Hanoi.. blah blah blah


Ahhh there, the thread is directed for you robin. Now please, go read some history and then come back and talk to us. Thank you!

Tell me... where in this babble have you actually addressed the point I've made in this thread ?

 

[cnredd]

Tell me... where in this babble have you actually addressed the point I've made in this thread ?

All of your points suck...

You suck...

There's a good chance your ancestors sucked...

For you to get an answer is an admission of your opinions being relevant...which they are not. Any reply to anything you say is considered a downgrade of my opinion of that person.

You have an agenda...You are not here to debate...you are here to attack. Any opposing opinion is discounted, so why bother?

Did I mention you suck?

 

[robin]

All of your points suck...

You suck...

There's a good chance your ancestors sucked...

For you to get an answer is an admission of your opinions being relevant...which they are not. Any reply to anything you say is considered a downgrade of my opinion of that person.

You have an agenda...You are not here to debate...you are here to attack. Any opposing opinion is discounted, so why bother?
Did I mention you suck?

You sound like some ignorant biggoted Muslim Extremist.

 

[cnredd]

You sound like some ignorant biggoted Muslim Extremist.

The fact that you attempt to insult me is not relevant to the fact that you suck...

Although I am not biggoted, nor a Mislim, even if I was, this will not deter my contention that you suck...

Even if you disagree with everything a person who sucks says, this will not exempt you from the same suckiness status...

Your comments increase the will of terrorists, and decrease the will of those who fight for freedom....This means you suck.

I don't care if I was dumb, deaf, illiterate, and applauded the movie Gigli...what I do and how I live my life will not have any effect on the vast amount of suckiness that you portray.

You suck.

 

[robin]

I suck... wow you've really dealt with the issues there haven't you. You've gradually demolished my arguments brick by brick :lol:
AS long as there are ignorant oafs like you in either side of a divide then there'll always be wars.

Yuze in the KKK boy ?
Only ya seem laaak some retard biggot ta me boy.
Ya ain't inturested in lurnin the facts are ya boy. :lol:

 

[nkgupta80]

This article from the BBC would suggest otherwise:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/as...fic/4435135.stm

There is definately fighting between Islamic Fundamentalism and the Chinese. Sure, the Chinese Government sucks, but the Terrorists can't seem to make peace with anyone.

All this proves is that Commie China's acting against Muslims in the same manner as they did with the Buddhists in Tibet.

 

[debate_junkie]

Tell me... where in this babble have you actually addressed the point I've made in this thread ?

All your words robin.. from other threads. I'd go and get the exact post numbers and what thread they came from, but I'd be at it all night, and I do have a life outside of Debate Politics.

Now having said that... are you now conceding what we already know? That your words are babble?

 

[robin]

So you don't think the Iraq war is utterly futile as a war on terror then ?

 

[Connecticutter]

All this proves is that Commie China's acting against Muslims in the same manner as they did with the Buddhists in Tibet.

I forgot why I posted that. I think someone said that China and Muslims get along. Something along those lines. Just trying to say, well not exactly.

 

[debate_junkie]

So you don't think the Iraq war is utterly futile as a war on terror then ?

Let me see if I can knock it down to a level you'll understand...

Ignoring terrorism.... done for as long as I can remember.. that did not work.

It took 3500 people dying in NYC, Washington DC and Somerset PA (combined figures, folks) for there to be someone to stand up and say ENOUGH.

Sadaam Hussein... mass murderer of his own citizens... a terrorist to them... removed from power.

Cowards (insurgents) resurrect to try to fight a holy war, because their days were numbered and they knew it.

so what do they do... blow themselves up in the name of Allah, and you are giving them the very fuel that they need. All it takes is ONE.. count it ONE person to be seen or heard saying... America is Evil... that's ALL they need.

Hell... Al Quaida.... formed by Has Bin Laden.... and all he had to say was kill.. and they said yes Master. And your defending idiocy like this?

Perhaps instead of asking if the war is futile.... maybe you should ask if the war was necessary to GAIN a foothold on the camps and regimes that are turning these murderers out faster than a prostitute turns tricks on a Friday night in Vegas.

 

[Christopher Brooks]

There families of these young men are devastated. They didn't even know thier sons were into this. Their sons had been brainwashed by Imams or clerics from Pakistan. I hope now the Muslim community will now sort itself out & not tolerate & will report the minority that preach hatred for the west.
That is how to fight terror. Bombing Muslims thousands of miles away & locking them up in Abu Ghraib which gives propaganda to the Imams is not the way to deal with this. Terror begats terror !

The suicide story being dished up by the media is ridiculous.

Only very gullible and those lacking any memory would not recognize that
the very same agencies weaving the London Nightmare scenario have been well documented as dishing out endless fraudulent "Muslim" terror claims since 911.

The background and family stability of these young men clearly is totally incompatible with the story woven so far.

I don`t think they can sell this ridiculous tale but no doubt they will just abandon previous statements and trust in the stupidity of the gullible public.

What was that about a Bomb Factory, probably cough medicine and hair spray.

Next it will be nasty wicked chemical formula, that will be an encyclopedia.

Dangerous bomb materials, lawn mower fuel.

Maps and plans, that will be a street directory.

Are you people daft? Haven`t you followed the trail of Terror cell dramas and "ricin" poison factory propaganda all disseminated by the same agencies that you now presume are telling you the truth.

There is not a hint of motive or intent in the background of these young men
but the media like to suggest and imagine all sorts of fantastic hypothesis to fit the facts around the "Muslim conspiracy theory".

These gents have been framed and murdered for political gain.

Who benefits from the London nightmare? Certainly not Muslims.

The most terrifying aspect of this event is the gullibility of the public though I predict that framing young happily married men with young families will never be believed once the initial shock of the event wears off and people regain a bit of critical capacity and logic.

 

[Christopher Brooks]

ENOUGH.



Hell... Al Quaida.... formed by Has Bin Laden.... and all he had to say was kill.. and they said yes Master. And your defending idiocy like this?

Perhaps instead of asking if the war is futile.... maybe you should ask if the war was necessary to GAIN a foothold on the camps and regimes that are turning these murderers out faster than a prostitute turns tricks on a Friday night in Vegas.

British politician, Robin Cook only recently stated in a media column that
Al Qaeda means data base and was the file name for the US and British
intelligence assets.

BBC 3 Documentary "The Power of Nightmares" traveled to Afghanistan to investigate the reality of the Bin Laden terror empire.
Includes some very interesting comments from British and US troops.
They found nothing.
This documentary is easily viewed on the net.

I guess some of you guys believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny

 

[robin]

These gents have been framed and murdered for political gain.

Why/how did they get killed in the explosions if they weren't suicide bombers ?

 

[robin]

Perhaps instead of asking if the war is futile.... maybe you should ask if the war was necessary to GAIN a foothold on the camps and regimes that are turning these murderers out faster than a prostitute turns tricks on a Friday night in Vegas.

More like Abu Ghraib camp turning out murderers directly or indirectly thru negative propaganda, becuase the pictures of your guys torturing Muslims will have played a part in the London bombs.
The London bomber maniacs were British born & bread. What had Iraq to do with why London was bombed or 911 for that matter ?
I'll tell you what Iraq had to do with London bombs, but don't come the crap about me condoning what they did. To try to understand why this happened is NOT to condone their wicked act. They were utterly wrong to blow people up & they are/were deluded idiots....

No excuse for their wicked act, but an explanation?
London Bombers Were Angered by War in Iraq By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer

LEEDS, England - Shahzad Tanweer, the 22-year-old son of a Pakistani-born affluent businessman, turned to Islam, the religion of his birth, a few years ago. The transformation was gradual, but then his relentless reading of the Quran and daily prayers became almost an obsession, his friends told The Associated Press. He became withdrawn and increasingly angry over the war in Iraq, according to those who knew him best.

The U.S.-led war was what likely drove him to blow himself up on a subway train last week, said his friends.

"He was a Muslim and he had to fight for Islam. This is called jihad," or holy war, said Asif Iqbal, 20, who said he was Tanweer's childhood friend.

Another friend, Adnan Samir, 21, nodded in agreement.

"They're crying over 50 people while 100 people are dying every day in Iraq and Palestine," said Iqbal. "If they are indeed the ones who did it, it's because they believed it was right. They're in Heaven.

"Have you ever been inspired in life?" he asked.

Tanweer and three other bombers detonated their backpacks on a bus and three subway trains in London on July 7, killing at least 53 people, themselves included, and injuring more than 700.

Tanweer turned to religion before the war in Iraq began in 2003. His friends don't know the reason, but said they didn't see anything wrong or unusual about it.

"He always told me to read the Quran and said Islam is the way (of life)," recalls Iqbal.

Everyone interviewed in his neighborhood — those who knew him well like Iqbal and Samir, who were schoolmates, or those who saw him in passing — described Tanweer as pleasant and kind.

"He was a nice lad. I don't know how many times he served me fish and chips," said Peter Douchworth, 58, a Beeston resident for over 30 years. "He went out of his way to help."

Tanweer sometimes worked at his father's fish and chips shop, but an employee there said he hadn't worked there for a while.

The family's white house — which has been cordoned off by police since Monday — stands in stark contrast to the surrounding gritty red-brick Victorian row houses. Two fancy cars are parked in the parking lot at the back.

A devoted athlete, Tanweer studied sports science at Leeds Metropolitan University and planned to get involved in sports professionally. He showed up twice a week for pickup soccer games, said a teammate who gave his name only as Saj.

He had a younger brother and two sisters and always lived in the working-class multiethnic Beeston area of the city of Leeds in northern England.

Media reports said he was arrested once for shoplifting.

His uncle, Bashir Ahmed, said Tanweer traveled to Lahore, Pakistan, this year to study Islamic religion. He said his family believed he was attending "some religious function" on the day of the bombings.

Forensic evidence has linked Tanweer to the blast on the Underground train near Aldgate.

Friends Iqbal and Samir claimed ignorance as to how their friend became involved in Islamic militancy and how he became a prey to terrorist recruiters.

"All Muslims are connected," Iqbal said.

The friends said they had never been approached by anyone trying to indoctrinate them into militant Islam.

Where would Tanweer and his co-activists meet or plan their attacks?

"How do football fans get together and talk about football? It's the same thing," said Iqbal.

Tanweer's friend, Hasib Hussain, is another of the bombers identified by police. At 18, the handsome, 6-foot-tall soccer player was the youngest of the bombers. He was also the youngest of four children, two sisters and a brother. Like Tanweer, his family came from Pakistan.

Hussain, suspected of carrying out the suicide attack that claimed 13 lives on a double-decker bus, was known for his sense of humor and style. He sometimes wore blue contact lenses and long hair parted in the middle, according to a friend.

Some people said Hussain became more religious two years ago but never abandoned his boyhood friends for radicals. Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, born in Pakistan and another of the suicide bombers, is known in his neighborhood as an exemplary community worker.

A father of an 8-month-old baby girl, Khan was a popular former teacher of children with learning disabilities.

Documents belonging to Khan were found in the debris of the Edgware Road subway blast.

Former students at the Hillside Primary School said Khan left for Pakistan last December to look after his ailing father. It was not clear when he returned to Britain.

"I liked him. He was nice," said Billy Sandersen, 13. He and other former pupils said they were shocked when they saw his picture in the papers as one of the suspects.

However, they said they still liked him.

"Just a little bit, but not for what he's done — killing innocent people," Sandersen said.

"I still like him," said Sean Woodham, 13, another former pupil, "because he always helped me with my homework."

Maroof Latif, an unemployed Beeston resident, said he knew Khan since he was a child and believes if he took part in the terrorist bombings of the subways it was because of his anger over the war in Iraq and the U.S.-British occupation.

Fri Jul 15, 5:32 AM ET

 

[Christopher Brooks]

Why/how did they get killed in the explosions if they weren't suicide bombers ?

Robin,

There is any number of possible scenarios that could have manufactured the "evidence" that is flagged to incriminate these guys and malign Muslims.

I have dozens of articles already that indicate contradictions and absurdities in the "official" story.

Common sense should lead you to realize that happily married men with young children and no evident motive or history {excluding the fantasy perception that is impregnated through the media that characterizes Muslims to be born terrorists} are not the slightest candidates for this type of behavior. This story will not sell. It is ridiculous. They have young children, they have everything to live for.

The real criminals who murdered these young men and many others want you to blame Muslims, support the War policy and surrender you civil liberties.

Have you seen the profile of the Egyptian chemist who is being framed as the "mastermind". Ridiculous once again. He is successful and has a great future ahead of him. Of course his flat would naturally contain a library of text books that will be the "bomb factory" foundation.

Havn`t you noticed the stream of this type of anti Muslim hype that always in time evaporates to nothing. No arrests, no convictions, no evidence, but it serves the purpose of keeping the public hyped up and fearful.
A fearful populous is a pliable populous. This is classic Machiavellian strategy.

If you are serious you can research the many problems with the "suicide" nightmare scenario. I hardly have to lead you there. Google away.

My reading of events so far is the planners chose these guys as the "stars" of this deadly theater because this justifies strict civil restrictions.
After all if these normal guys could be bombers with no history then almost anyone is a suspect and blanket surveillance of society is needed and nothing less. We are all potential terrorists! We should all feel guilty, afraid and be subservient. Civil libertarian argument is silenced.

I think the plot is too bold for the public to accept. I repeat I think it is a joke.

They will have to manage the plot if the public starts to ask obvious questions

 

[cnredd]

There is any number of possible scenarios that could have manufactured the "evidence" that is flagged to incriminate these guys and malign Muslims.

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

 

[arussian]

Let me see if I can knock it down to a level you'll understand...

It took 3500 people dying in NYC, Washington DC and Somerset PA (combined figures, folks) for there to be someone to stand up and say ENOUGH.

Don't forget that 9-11 was inside job. Come and see the evidences and links in the corresponding thread of this very forum. I also could not believe at first. Nevertheless, there are some things that are simply impossible without violating laws of physics.

(For example, a skyscraper cannot fall down due to the fire, especially in the case that most of the fuel dropped outside of it).

If jihadists can violate these laws, ... then OK, God is on their side and they are invincible. :lol:

 

[robin]

Don't forget that 9-11 was inside job. Come and see the evidences and links in the corresponding thread of this very forum. I also could not believe at first. Nevertheless, there are some things that are simply impossible without violating laws of physics.

(For example, a skyscraper cannot fall down due to the fire, especially in the case that most of the fuel dropped outside of it).

No 90 minute fire raging turns girders hot & bendy like plastic. Proven. The fire was sufficient to make it collapse.

 

[arussian]

Regarding the charges of that four young Englishmen of the Pakistanian origin it is possible to asume that perhaps they have carried explosives. But were they those who detonated them? Could they do this simultaneously?

Imagine what kind of strong will such thing desrve, to end ones own life at exactly right moment? Could western homegrown jihadists do this? I doubt it, because for example, ca. 80% of Chechen jihadists were unable to detonate themselves at all. Taking into consideration that Chechen jihadists unlike those from UK had strong personal motives for revenge.

For example, the following version is much more probable, imho. There is information that tube emergency drills were performed exactly at the same time as the real bombings.

http://www.uruknet.info/?colonna=m&p=13656&l=x&size=1&hd=0

UK special forces hired some "Islamist looking" guys to carry in some "bomb-looking" stuff. In several cases it could be just not "looking-like" stuff but real bombs.

 

[Diogenes]

Imagine what kind of strong will such thing desrve, to end ones own life at exactly right moment?

It doesn't take a strong will. It just takes fanaticism.

 

[arussian]

look here, Robin,





and consider this:

Since the plane and its fuel initially shared a common trajectory, after impact the metallic components of the plane followed much the same path as the jet fuel. This path was through one corner of the South Tower. The steel beams bearing most of the load were located in the center of the tower, and thus most of the metal from the plane would not have hit the central steel beams, which would thus have remained largely undamaged by the impact.

Thus neither the plane impact nor the fire damaged the South Tower sufficiently to account for its collapse, so the South Tower collapsed from some other cause.

The fire in the South Tower was thus less intense than that in the North Tower. But the South Tower collapsed first, at 9:59 a.m., 56 minutes after impact, whereas the North Tower collapsed at 10:29 a.m., 1 hour and 44 minutes after impact. Had the fires been the cause of the collapse then the North Tower, with its more intense fire, would have collapsed first. Or, put another way, had the fires been the cause of the collapse then the South Tower, hit after the North Tower, and subjected to a less intense fire, would have collapsed after (not before) the North Tower collapsed.

from: http://www.serendipity.li/wtc2.htm

By the way, "hot and bendy" means that the upper part of the building might bent. Perhaps it could even fall, it doesn't mean collapse of the whole tower in the way as all of us have seen many times. It has collapsed as if there was nothing within.

 

[arussian]

It doesn't take a strong will. It just takes fanaticism.

You think that UK grown guys of Pakistan origin could have such fanaticism?
I seriously doubt it.

To visit a mosque regularly is one thing to detonate oneself at exactly the proper moment is something very much different.

At the same time to assist police or some sort of british MI... in "trainings" is definitely much more easy, don't you find it?

 

[Diogenes]

You think that UK grown guys of Pakistan origin could have such fanaticism?
I seriously doubt it.

Nevertheless, that seems to be what happened. When you start looking for reasons WHY they might have lost their marbles (among other things), remember the principle of Occam's Razor.

To visit a mosque regularly is one thing to detonate oneself at exactly the proper moment is something very much different.

That sort of depends on what is being preached in the mosque, don't you think?

At the same time to assist police or some sort of british MI... in "trainings" is definitely much more easy, don't you find it?

Only in the fevered mind of a dedicated conspiracy theorist.

 

[Christopher Brooks]

Only in the fevered mind of a dedicated conspiracy theorist.

Diogenes,
your Muslim conspiracy theory depends on presuming that successful young men with young families and not a single hint of motive or intent
would murder their fellow Londoners.

The "suicide" tale is already being retracted by the investigators because the public would not believe the ridiculous story. You wouldn`t commit this act yet you have been convinced Muslims have no humanity and would abandon their young wives and children, traumatize their families and communities and not even announce why they did it. Let`s put our brain back in our head.

The explosives were set with timers, this is not suicide.

It is most likely these men were involved in innocent activity that was staged to appear like a Muslim terror attack.

They may have carried the bombs but believed they were participating in a test drill of the security. This is just a hypothesis but the real activities of these gents and their backgrounds, families, careers etc are simply totally incompatible with the myth being painted by the media and the investigation team.

This would not be the first time this lie factory duo played the frame up game.

Have you forgotten the Ricin factory hype that went on for two years in the media and eventually when this charge got it`s day in court it was exposed as a total load of *******.

The media, intelligence and security agencies spin lies every day to hype the gullible public. They frame Muslims and spin fairy tales to the public.

The public have a concentration span of about a week and suffer regular political amnesia so they never notice that the hype always evaporates away to nothing.

The Ricin Plot episode is clear proof these people lie and frame Muslims.

Where is the factual judicial evidence that these young men are bombers?
Is it possible that this is another propaganda exercise to further the war policy?

 

[Diogenes]

You wouldn`t commit this act yet you have been convinced Muslims have no humanity and would abandon their young wives and children, traumatize their families and communities and not even announce why they did it. Let`s put our brain back in our head.

The explosives were set with timers, this is not suicide.

You are right that I would not commit such an act, but then I am not a fanatic. Please don't accuse me of generalizing to "all Muslims" - not all Muslims are terrorists, although it does seem to be the case that all the terrorists are Muslim (this time around). Fanatics are not restricted to any one religion or race, and I find it interesting that you can divine which individuals in a crowd are homicidal psychopaths by watching a surveillance video, or talking to their family and friends. Is Scotland Yard aware of your abilities?

As far as the timers -- there was an hilarious case a few years ago where a carload of Palestinian terrorists blew up only themselves as they drove off to plant a bomb with a timer. They had reset their watches for daylight savings time, but forgot to reset the timer. I think of it as suicide by stupidity, Darwinian selection in action.