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Iraq war utterly futile as war on terror. London terrorists home grown.

robin

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It's come to light that the London suicide bombers were young men born in the UK & their families originated in Pakistan. They were in no way openly Islamic fundamentalists. They were in no way connected to Iraq anymore than the 911 terrorists were. They blended in with the community like any ordinary Muslims.
How ludicrous to think the war in Iraq is a war on terror. Yet it's killed many times more innocent people than the terrorists have !
It is terror !
 
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Diogenes

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And what is your suggested solution? Counseling and therapy for these poor benighted blokes?
 

galenrox

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Diogenes said:
And what is your suggested solution? Counseling and therapy for these poor benighted blokes?
nah, the suggested solution is to stop creating situations where people view **** like this as a rational response.
 

Diogenes

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galenrox said:
nah, the suggested solution is to stop creating situations where people view **** like this as a rational response.
And how do you propose to change the thinking of fanatics who believe blowing themselves (and as many others as possible) up is a rational response to anything?
 

galenrox

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Diogenes said:
And how do you propose to change the thinking of fanatics who believe blowing themselves (and as many others as possible) up is a rational response to anything?
stop ****ing with them. they're not attacking China, another superpower. you know why? cause China's not ****ing with them.
 

robin

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There families of these young men are devastated. They didn't even know thier sons were into this. Their sons had been brainwashed by Imams or clerics from Pakistan. I hope now the Muslim community will now sort itself out & not tolerate & will report the minority that preach hatred for the west.
That is how to fight terror. Bombing Muslims thousands of miles away & locking them up in Abu Ghraib which gives propaganda to the Imams is not the way to deal with this. Terror begats terror !
 

Diogenes

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galenrox said:
stop ****ing with them. they're not attacking China, another superpower. you know why? cause China's not ****ing with them.
LOL! Did we **** with them before 9/11? I think you might consider whether China would be as gentle with them as we are at Club Gitmo -- I'm sure the terrorists have already thought about it. :rofl
 

superskippy

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galenrox said:
stop ****ing with them. they're not attacking China, another superpower. you know why? cause China's not ****ing with them.
Actually, there is growing problems with Muslim populations in Northern China (which make up a large portion of chinas population in the Northern regions.) the crime rate against Chinese soldiers is rising in the regions there and speculation that it may become a new Jihadist front in the next few years. Which is entirely possible.

Also another reason they haven't attacked China is that they are quite busy at the moment, the Americans are doing a quite a good job at killing them and keeping them busy.

In addition China is not known for its... how do I put this... subtlety... if there was a terror attack Chinese agents would respond, and they are uncharacteristically... ruthless. Which is why they havent had nearly as much trouble with their muslims in the northern regions.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Diogenes said:
LOL! Did we **** with them before 9/11?
Are you implying that "the West" and the US in particular did not engage in activties that deeply impacted the MENA (Middle East North Africa) area?
 

Navy Pride

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I get a real laugh out of the left when they try and blame us forwhat happened on 9/11/01...........They want to coddle and baby the people that murdered 3,000 innocent men and women whos only crime is they were going to work on that morning............

I say wipe them off the face of the earth........
 

Diogenes

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Karl Rove had it right - conservatives prepare for war, liberals prepare for indictments and therapy. The liberal approach of appeasement didn't work in the last century, and it won't work in this one either.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Navy Pride said:
I get a real laugh out of the left when they try and blame us forwhat happened on 9/11/01...........They want to coddle and baby the people that murdered 3,000 innocent men and women whos only crime is they were going to work on that morning............

I say wipe them off the face of the earth........
I thought that the people that murdered 3,000 innocent men and women on 9-11 were already wiped off the face of the earth.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Diogenes said:
Karl Rove had it right - conservatives prepare for war, liberals prepare for indictments and therapy.
Even our Department of Defense is getting all liberal.

Have you given the Pentagon's Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication a glance yet?

It's all "Global Test" and "sensitive war" crap wanting us to understand people in the Arab and Muslim World.
“Strategic communication requires a sophisticated method … … [it] will build on in depth knowledge of other cultures and factors that motivate human behavior. It will adapt techniques of skillful political campaigning … It will engage in a respectful dialogue of ideas that begins with listening and assumes decades of sustained effort.

“[Global] opinions must be taken into account when [US] policy options are considered and implemented. [!]

“The Task Force recommends that the President issue a directive to: (a) strengthen the U.S. Government’s ability to understand global public opinion, advise on the strategic implications of policymaking, and communicate with global audiences ...

“The strategic environment has changed radically since the October 2001 Task Force report. We face a war on terrorism, intensified conflict within Islam, and insurgency in Iraq. Worldwide anger and discontent are directed at America’s tarnished credibility[!] and ways the U.S. pursues its goals[!].

"The information campaign — or as some still would have it, “the war of ideas,” or the struggle for “hearts and minds” — is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective ... But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists ...

• Muslims do not “hate our freedom,” but rather, they hate our policies.

• Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering.

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah ... to broad public support.

• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.

Who are these guys in the Defense Depatrment? A bunch of liberal nansy-pansy idiots? Who cares what people in other countries think? Who cares about "global opinions" Why not just build bigger, cheaper bombs? Can't we just bomb them, all into submission?
 

Simon W. Moon

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And the CIA....oh the CIA!

Can you believe that this stuff comes from the CIA? Has everybody at Langley become pawns of the Liberal Media, or what?

Testimony of Director of Central Intelligence Porter J. Goss Before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
16 February 2005

Islamic extremists are exploiting the Iraqi conflict to recruit new anti-US jihadists.
These jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced in and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of contacts to build transnational terrorist cells, groups, and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries.​
http://www.foia.cia.gov/2020/2020.pdf
• Anti-globalization and opposition to
US policies could cement a greater
body of terrorist sympathizers,
financiers, and collaborators.
societies.

Iraq and other possible conflicts in
the future could provide recruitment,
training grounds, technical skills and
language proficiency for a new class
of terrorists who are “professionalized”
and for whom political
violence becomes an end in itself
.​

'New militant threat' from Iraq
The insurgency in Iraq is creating a new type of Islamic militant who could go on to destabilise other countries, a leaked CIA report says.

The classified document says Iraqi and foreign fighters are developing a broad range of skills, from car bombings and assassinations to co-ordinated attacks.

It says these skills may make them more dangerous than fighters from Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

And the threat may grow when the Iraq insurgency ends and fighters disperse.

The broad conclusions of the report have been confirmed by an unnamed CIA official and are said to have been widely circulated in the intelligence community.​
Iraq May Be Prime Place for Training of Militants, C.I.A. Report Concludes
A new classified assessment by the Central Intelligence Agency says Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda's early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat.

They said the assessment had argued that Iraq, since the American invasion of 2003, had in many ways assumed the role played by Afghanistan during the rise of Al Qaeda during the 1980's and 1990's, as a magnet and a proving ground for Islamic extremists from Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.​
Iraq a site to train terrorists, CIA says
The CIA believes the Iraq insurgency poses an international threat and may produce better-trained Islamic terrorists than the 1980s Afghanistan war that gave rise to Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, officials said yesterday.

Once the insurgency ends, Islamic militants are likely to disperse as highly organized battle-hardened combatants capable of operating throughout the Arab-speaking world and in other regions including Europe.

The May report, which has been widely circulated in the intelligence community, also cites a potential threat to the United States.

Although the Afghan war against the Soviets was largely fought on a rural battlefield, the CIA report said, Iraq is providing extremists with more comprehensive skills including training in operations devised for populated urban areas.
I mean, give me a break. Are you buying this?

Does it really matter if the invasion of Iraq provides more motivation for more of them Muslims to look the other way about terrorist activities AND provides more motivation for more of them Muslims to support terrorists AND provides more motivation for more of them Muslims to become terrorists AND provides the ones who decide to become terrorists with better training grounds than al Qaeda had in Afghanistan?

Didn't we have to go into Iraq because just like Hussein helped them with 9-11 he was about to use a nuke on us if we didn't?

Or not?
 

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Originally posted by Navy Pride:
I get a real laugh out of the left when they try and blame us forwhat happened on 9/11/01...........They want to coddle and baby the people that murdered 3,000 innocent men and women whos only crime is they were going to work on that morning............

I say wipe them off the face of the earth........
That's like say capitol punishment is a deterrent. Which is ludicrous. You don't solve problems without identifying how they are caused. Until we address why people get so mad they want to fly planes in our buildings, you are not going to solve anything. And by going around the world and killing everyone that isn't you, you actually putting more Americans in danger. Nobody is saying codle anyone. If you want to talk that way, then I see George Bush has a little more pep in his walk since the bombing.

Life isn't black or white. If / Then. Either / Or. There are many more choices than those.
 

robin

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Billo_Really said:
You don't solve problems without identifying how they are caused. Until we address why people get so mad they want to fly planes in our buildings, you are not going to solve anything. And by going around the world and killing everyone that isn't you, you actually putting more Americans in danger. Life isn't black or white. If / Then. Either / Or. There are many more choices than those.
Wise words Billy. So true mate ;)
 
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Diogenes

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Billo_Really said:
That's like say capitol punishment is a deterrent. Which is ludicrous.
Your statement is ludicrous. No one who has been executed for a crime has ever repeated that crime, so on the record it is a 100% effective deterrent.

You don't solve problems without identifying how they are caused. Until we address why people get so mad they want to fly planes in our buildings, you are not going to solve anything.
You also don't solve problems by assuming a priori that the terrorists are rational people responding in a rational way to our policies. What "policies" do you think Ted Bundy, Joe Duncan, John Cooey and Alphonso Rodriguez were responding to? It's a big world with a lot of people in it - some of them are just plain evil, and have to be removed. Try thinking of it as an overdue abortion.
 

robin

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Diogenes said:
You also don't solve problems by assuming a priori that the terrorists are rational people responding in a rational way to our policies. What "policies" do you think Ted Bundy, Joe Duncan, John Cooey and Alphonso Rodriguez were responding to? It's a big world with a lot of people in it - some of them are just plain evil, and have to be removed. Try thinking of it as an overdue abortion.
How do you pass a death sentance on a suicide bomber after he's killed himself ?
 

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You pass the death sentance over the people sending the suicide bombers, and then the people who helped those people pull it off.

Rinse and Repeat.
 

Diogenes

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Well said, superskippy.
 

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robin said:
It's come to light that the London suicide bombers were young men born in the UK & their families originated in Pakistan. They were in no way openly Islamic fundamentalists. They were in no way connected to Iraq anymore than the 911 terrorists were. They blended in with the community like any ordinary Muslims.
How ludicrous to think the war in Iraq is a war on terror. Yet it's killed many times more innocent people than the terrorists have !
It is terror !
couldn't find enough poster's sympathetic to your words on previous threads robin? had to start a new one? hmmmm here, let me direct it for you...

The US is terrorists.. blah, blah, blah

They kill civilians... blah blah blah

Iraq has no terrorists.. blah, blah, blah

Sadaam wasn't evil.. America is.. blah blah blah

hmmm did I cover it all? Nope, forgot one... US bombed Hanoi.. blah blah blah


Ahhh there, the thread is directed for you robin. Now please, go read some history and then come back and talk to us. Thank you!
 

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Diogenes said:
Your statement is ludicrous. No one who has been executed for a crime has ever repeated that crime, so on the record it is a 100% effective deterrent.

You also don't solve problems by assuming a priori that the terrorists are rational people responding in a rational way to our policies. What "policies" do you think Ted Bundy, Joe Duncan, John Cooey and Alphonso Rodriguez were responding to? It's a big world with a lot of people in it - some of them are just plain evil, and have to be removed. Try thinking of it as an overdue abortion.
Charles Manson, let's explain him. He wanted to start a race war between the blacks and the whites, and then just sit back and "ride the wave, man".

How did we deal with him? Hmmm convicted him of the Tate-Labianca murders, and sentenced him to death... which was carried out in... oh wait it wasn't... California outlawed the death penalty. So Manson is in prison till he dies, at the expense of the very community of peoples he aimed to maim and murder. Yeah... that's true justice
 

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Agreed, Manson should make any list that includes Ted Bundy. On the other hand, the two of them are in a different category from the rest - the others are repeat offenders that we had in custody at one time, and the children they have killed since then are a testament to our failure to deal correctly with them the first time. Unfortunately we don't seem to have learned anything from our experience with these animals, so it is refreshing to see Bush take a more practical approach with the terrorists.
 

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Diogenes said:
Agreed, Manson should make any list that includes Ted Bundy. On the other hand, the two of them are in a different category from the rest - the others are repeat offenders that we had in custody at one time, and the children they have killed since then are a testament to our failure to deal correctly with them the first time. Unfortunately we don't seem to have learned anything from our experience with these animals, so it is refreshing to see Bush take a more practical approach with the terrorists.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Isn't the point of mistakes to learn from them? :)

I would say I'm deluded in that thinking, but then I'd be including you, at least on this issue, so I'll refrain :rofl
 

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galenrox said:
stop ****ing with them. they're not attacking China, another superpower. you know why? cause China's not ****ing with them.
This article from the BBC would suggest otherwise:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4435135.stm

There is definately fighting between Islamic Fundamentalism and the Chinese. Sure, the Chinese Government sucks, but the Terrorists can't seem to make peace with anyone.
 
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