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Inoctoranating drug patients is totally immoral an unethical

MisterLogical

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Some drug help clinics fix people on drugs by making them believe in god or a "higher Power". That is really underhanded if you think about it. I mean its one thing if a drug addict or lost soul comes to a church and says "Hey I am lost and I think that finding god might fix me". Since in that case its totally optional. With rehab you are kind of forcing it. Its like standing over a kid having an allergic reaction and saying "I wont give you your epi-pen unless you worship Jesus Christ". Does anyone think this is kind of screwed up? Should we be forcing on people in BAD SITUATIONS and saying that we converted them? I mean that is Coercion isnt it?
 
Some drug help clinics fix people on drugs by making them believe in god or a "higher Power". That is really underhanded if you think about it. I mean its one thing if a drug addict or lost soul comes to a church and says "Hey I am lost and I think that finding god might fix me". Since in that case its totally optional. With rehab you are kind of forcing it. Its like standing over a kid having an allergic reaction and saying "I wont give you your epi-pen unless you worship Jesus Christ". Does anyone think this is kind of screwed up? Should we be forcing on people in BAD SITUATIONS and saying that we converted them? I mean that is Coercion isnt it?

It's not cut and dried. No-one could deny the good that AA has done in society and they say you need to believe in a higher power. Maybe they'd have the same success without the higher power thingy but my thinking is, don't screw with what's working.
More marginal organizations? You gotta make your call on a case-by-case basis. You can't make blanket judgements.
 
Some drug help clinics fix people on drugs by making them believe in god or a "higher Power". That is really underhanded if you think about it. I mean its one thing if a drug addict or lost soul comes to a church and says "Hey I am lost and I think that finding god might fix me". Since in that case its totally optional. With rehab you are kind of forcing it. Its like standing over a kid having an allergic reaction and saying "I wont give you your epi-pen unless you worship Jesus Christ". Does anyone think this is kind of screwed up? Should we be forcing on people in BAD SITUATIONS and saying that we converted them? I mean that is Coercion isnt it?

WTF?

"....making them believe in god or a "higher Power""


Now just how do they do that? Water boarding, nails puled out? Just how do they go about forcing someone to believe in something.

This is stupidest post I have ever seen in this forum.

Not only is it out of whole cloth, but absolute bull****. The program of Alcoholics Anonymous is free and completely voluntary, in fact if you don't like it, keeop drinking or find an alternative that works.

BTW, there isn't one
 
WTF?

"....making them believe in god or a "higher Power""


Now just how do they do that? Water boarding, nails puled out? Just how do they go about forcing someone to believe in something.

This is stupidest post I have ever seen in this forum.

Not only is it out of whole cloth, but absolute bull****. The program of Alcoholics Anonymous is free and completely voluntary, in fact if you don't like it, keeop drinking or find an alternative that works.

BTW, there isn't one

Okay so if someone offers they will only help you get better if you believe in god is fair? How exactly do you not believe that is forcing someone. Its not direct but its indirectly making someone do something. It would be like you saying "We cant arrest someone for Proxy Murder since they did not directly kill anyone". That is still force. They have laws against this for a reason you know.
 
Okay so if someone offers they will only help you get better if you believe in god is fair? How exactly do you not believe that is forcing someone. Its not direct but its indirectly making someone do something. It would be like you saying "We cant arrest someone for Proxy Murder since they did not directly kill anyone". That is still force. They have laws against this for a reason you know.

Where and when has anyone ever said I will only help you if.....

Maybe if you went as a visitor to an AA meeting. Wait., you hate the concept of God so much you'd **** yourself when anyone else talked about their faith. Truth is, sir, there is only ONE path to recovery from addictions, even the Betty Ford Clinic sends you to AA.

If you have any information on an alternative, post it and we will look at a success rate, but do some ****ing research before you go down an imaginary path.
 
Where and when has anyone ever said I will only help you if.....

Maybe if you went as a visitor to an AA meeting. Wait., you hate the concept of God so much you'd **** yourself when anyone else talked about their faith. Truth is, sir, there is only ONE path to recovery from addictions, even the Betty Ford Clinic sends you to AA.

If you have any information on an alternative, post it and we will look at a success rate, but do some ****ing research before you go down an imaginary path.

So anyone who does not agree with you hates god? That is a really stupid assumption. You are saying its okay to exploit people if you believe its for a good cause. Its wrong to take advantage of people since you know they are in a desperate situation.

Hey homeless dude ill give you a candy bar if you stab this guy. Oh dont worry I offered you candy, im helping. No that is not helping. You are exploiting the homeless and stating its for a "Good cause". Yes he gets to eat for a day, but he just stabbed a homeless guy. How exactly can you justify that? It just means you are a manipulative dick.
 
It's not cut and dried. No-one could deny the good that AA has done in society and they say you need to believe in a higher power. Maybe they'd have the same success without the higher power thingy but my thinking is, don't screw with what's working.
More marginal organizations? You gotta make your call on a case-by-case basis. You can't make blanket judgements.

The success rate of AA is between 5 to 10 %, according to a study .The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There?s a better way to treat addiction - Salon.com
 
What if the person does not want to join a church to stop drugs? That seems really crooked.

Well, from what I understand, (never having been to AA myself), part of the 'higher power' is that the 'higher power' doesn't have to be God. I suspect that is so to get around the 'seperation of church and state' for court mandated enrollment.
 
It's not cut and dried. No-one could deny the good that AA has done in society and they say you need to believe in a higher power. Maybe they'd have the same success without the higher power thingy but my thinking is, don't screw with what's working.
More marginal organizations? You gotta make your call on a case-by-case basis. You can't make blanket judgements.

Step 1: “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.”

This step sounds appealing to some and grates heavily on others. The notion of declaring powerlessness is intended to evoke a sense of surrender that might give way to spiritual rebirth. Compelling as this is as a narrative device, it lacks any clinical merit or scientific backing.

Step 2: “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”

Many scholars have written about the close bond between AA and religion. This is perhaps inevitable: AA was founded as a religious organization whose design and practices hewed closely to its spiritual forerunner, the Oxford Group, whose members believed strongly in the purging of sinfulness through conversion experiences. As Bill Wilson wrote in the Big Book: “To some people we need not, and probably should not, emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God.”

Religion can have a salutary effect on people in crisis, of course, and its strong emphasis on community bonds is often indispensable. But do these comforting feelings address the causes of addiction or lead to permanent recovery in any meaningful way? As we will see, the evidence is scant.

Step 3: “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God.”

For an organization that has expressly denied religious standing and publicly claims a secular—even scientific—approach, it is curious that AA retains these explicit references to a spiritual power whose care might help light the way toward recovery. Even for addicts who opt to interpret this step secularly, the problem persists: why can’t this ultimate power lie within the addict?

Step 4: “Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.”

The notion that people with addictions suffer from a failure of morality to be indexed and removed is fundamental to Alcoholics Anonymous. Yet addiction is not a moral defect, and to suggest that does a great disservice to people suffering with this disorder.

Step 5: “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.”

Step 6: “Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.”

Step 7: “Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.”

These steps rehash the problems of their predecessors: the religiosity, the admission of moral defectiveness, the embrace of powerlessness, and the search for a cure through divine purification. The degradation woven through these steps also seems unwittingly designed to exacerbate, rather than relieve, the humiliating feelings so common in addiction.

If moral self-flagellation could cure addiction, we could be sure there would be precious few addicts.

Step 8: “Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.”

Step 9: “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”

There is nothing inherently wrong with apologizing to those who have been harmed, directly or indirectly, by the consequences of addiction. The problem is the echo once more of the fundamentalist religious principle: that the path to recovery is to cleanse oneself of sin.

Yes, apologies can be powerful things, and there’s no question that reconciling with people can be a liberating and uplifting experience. But grounding this advice within a framework of treatment alters its timbre, transforming an elective act into one of penance.

That does not prove success. That is the same as forcing someone to go to church and handing them a bible. So you know not scientific. Its just CHURCH.
 
Well, from what I understand, (never having been to AA myself), part of the 'higher power' is that the 'higher power' doesn't have to be God. I suspect that is so to get around the 'seperation of church and state' for court mandated enrollment.

It does not matter what the higher power is. Its still the basis of religion and its indoctrinating people. Its one thing to go to church willingly and saying "Im lost find me". Its another to go to a clinic and them saying "You can only be heeled by the power of god". I mean really even Church owned hospitals dont do this, why should AA be doing it? Churches also do fund and build a LOT OF HOSPITALS.
 
Step 1: “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.”

This step sounds appealing to some and grates heavily on others. The notion of declaring powerlessness is intended to evoke a sense of surrender that might give way to spiritual rebirth. Compelling as this is as a narrative device, it lacks any clinical merit or scientific backing.

Step 2: “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”

Many scholars have written about the close bond between AA and religion. This is perhaps inevitable: AA was founded as a religious organization whose design and practices hewed closely to its spiritual forerunner, the Oxford Group, whose members believed strongly in the purging of sinfulness through conversion experiences. As Bill Wilson wrote in the Big Book: “To some people we need not, and probably should not, emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God.”

Religion can have a salutary effect on people in crisis, of course, and its strong emphasis on community bonds is often indispensable. But do these comforting feelings address the causes of addiction or lead to permanent recovery in any meaningful way? As we will see, the evidence is scant.

Step 3: “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God.”

For an organization that has expressly denied religious standing and publicly claims a secular—even scientific—approach, it is curious that AA retains these explicit references to a spiritual power whose care might help light the way toward recovery. Even for addicts who opt to interpret this step secularly, the problem persists: why can’t this ultimate power lie within the addict?

Step 4: “Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.”

The notion that people with addictions suffer from a failure of morality to be indexed and removed is fundamental to Alcoholics Anonymous. Yet addiction is not a moral defect, and to suggest that does a great disservice to people suffering with this disorder.

Step 5: “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.”

Step 6: “Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.”

Step 7: “Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.”

These steps rehash the problems of their predecessors: the religiosity, the admission of moral defectiveness, the embrace of powerlessness, and the search for a cure through divine purification. The degradation woven through these steps also seems unwittingly designed to exacerbate, rather than relieve, the humiliating feelings so common in addiction.

If moral self-flagellation could cure addiction, we could be sure there would be precious few addicts.

Step 8: “Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.”

Step 9: “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”

There is nothing inherently wrong with apologizing to those who have been harmed, directly or indirectly, by the consequences of addiction. The problem is the echo once more of the fundamentalist religious principle: that the path to recovery is to cleanse oneself of sin.

Yes, apologies can be powerful things, and there’s no question that reconciling with people can be a liberating and uplifting experience. But grounding this advice within a framework of treatment alters its timbre, transforming an elective act into one of penance.

That does not prove success. That is the same as forcing someone to go to church and handing them a bible. So you know not scientific. Its just CHURCH.

What doesn't 'prove success'? Are you denying that AA has had success? And no, it's not the same as anything. It is what it is and before you toss it out you'd better have something to replace it with. All I'm saying.
 
What doesn't 'prove success'? Are you denying that AA has had success? And no, it's not the same as anything. It is what it is and before you toss it out you'd better have something to replace it with. All I'm saying.

Its as successful as a church. If you are going to offer people help by sending them to church why not just you know say "Why not try church"? We already have churches, why would we pretend its something more than a church and why would we not get these people some legitimate help from real doctors not send them to Sunday school? You also missed the point of what I said. Its indoctrinating people and its coercion. A lot of people are also forced to go to Rehabilitation centers by court. So its basically saying you must become part of a religion to A.Get better B.Not go to prison. Which seems to be going against the separation of Church and State. So why can we only help religious people get better? That seems a little unfair.
 
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Its as successful as a church. If you are going to offer people help by sending them to church why not just you know "Say its church"? We already have churches, why would we pretend its something more than a church and why would we not get these people some legitimate help from real doctors not send them to Sunday school?

Whatever. AA works, it's saved thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions when you count families. You may wish there was no 'higher power' in their program and have nothing but reason and logic behind you but if that's all you got, you got nothing. If you want a completely secular treatment program and can't find one you'll have to make do with what's available and maybe work on setting something up that meets your standards.
 
What is "inoctoranating?" :confused:
 
What is "inoctoranating?" :confused:

brainwashing - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

Whatever. AA works, it's saved thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions when you count families. You may wish there was no 'higher power' in their program and have nothing but reason and logic behind you but if that's all you got, you got nothing. If you want a completely secular treatment program and can't find one you'll have to make do with what's available and maybe work on setting something up that meets your standards.

That still does not really change anything. You dont give a reason why this is fair, Ethical or not technically breaking the separation of Church and state so you really have no defense. You are saying we can only treat people by forcing them to believe in religion. Yeah okay where is your evidence that is the only way to make someone get off drugs or get AWAY from an Addiction? You are saying "Since I believe in religion all must follow religion" that is not a real argument. Its crap!
 
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Some drug help clinics fix people on drugs by making them believe in god or a "higher Power". That is really underhanded if you think about it. I mean its one thing if a drug addict or lost soul comes to a church and says "Hey I am lost and I think that finding god might fix me". Since in that case its totally optional. With rehab you are kind of forcing it. Its like standing over a kid having an allergic reaction and saying "I wont give you your epi-pen unless you worship Jesus Christ". Does anyone think this is kind of screwed up? Should we be forcing on people in BAD SITUATIONS and saying that we converted them? I mean that is Coercion isnt it?

once again you prove why you are not logical.
AA has done a good job by a great many people.

if you don't like it don't go
if you don't like what they do then start your own
otherwise be quiet about it.

what they don't doesn't affect you.
 
once again you prove why you are not logical.
AA has done a good job by a great many people.

if you don't like it don't go
if you don't like what they do then start your own
otherwise be quiet about it.

what they don't doesn't affect you.

You are saying its logical to say that the only way to fix anyone is to go to church and there is no other solution because you are Christian. Yeah I am pretty sure you are the only irrational one here.
 
You are saying its logical to say that the only way to fix anyone is to go to church and there is no other solution because you are Christian. Yeah I am pretty sure you are the only irrational one here.

and this folks is what we call a strawman.
please show me where I said that at all. please post the words. otherwise you are making crap up.

what I said was AA has worked for millions of people.
if you don't like it don't go no one is forcing you to.
if you don't like what they do you don't have to find something else.

that is the cool thing about choice.
what they do doesn't affect you, but for some people it has helped them greatly.

the only thing you can do is whine because they mention God.
 
and this folks is what we call a strawman.
please show me where I said that at all. please post the words. otherwise you are making crap up.

what I said was AA has worked for millions of people.
if you don't like it don't go no one is forcing you to.
if you don't like what they do you don't have to find something else.

that is the cool thing about choice.
what they do doesn't affect you, but for some people it has helped them greatly.

the only thing you can do is whine because they mention God.


Yet, that just shows a lot of people went to it. What is the success ratio verses group therapy?
 
Yet, that just shows a lot of people went to it. What is the success ratio verses group therapy?

umm most AA meetings are group therapy.

Is There an AA Success Rate?

although I think it is probably below that. people with addiction will struggle with it no matter what they do.
 
Some drug help clinics fix people on drugs by making them believe in god or a "higher Power". That is really underhanded if you think about it. I mean its one thing if a drug addict or lost soul comes to a church and says "Hey I am lost and I think that finding god might fix me". Since in that case its totally optional. With rehab you are kind of forcing it. Its like standing over a kid having an allergic reaction and saying "I wont give you your epi-pen unless you worship Jesus Christ". Does anyone think this is kind of screwed up? Should we be forcing on people in BAD SITUATIONS and saying that we converted them? I mean that is Coercion isnt it?

No, it isn't coercion. One doesn't have to accept the beliefs of another. While I don't think proselytizing to drug addicts is an effective treatment, it isn't hard to understand why religious people would try to use religious faith in the process. Nobody is forced to accept the beliefs of another. I overcame a tobacco addiction 25 years ago. I can tell you that it doesn't work to have others pressure you to quit. It has to come from within. One has to want to quit. Otherwise is won't work. The trick is to develop that desire to quit.
 
No, it isn't coercion. One doesn't have to accept the beliefs of another. While I don't think proselytizing to drug addicts is an effective treatment, it isn't hard to understand why religious people would try to use religious faith in the process. Nobody is forced to accept the beliefs of another. I overcame a tobacco addiction 25 years ago. I can tell you that it doesn't work to have others pressure you to quit. It has to come from within. One has to want to quit. Otherwise is won't work. The trick is to develop that desire to quit.

So its not coercion to force say go to church or stay a drug addict and never get better? Explain how its not?
 
So its not coercion to force say go to church or stay a drug addict and never get better? Explain how its not?

Because it isn't coercion. We have free will.
 
It's not cut and dried. No-one could deny the good that AA has done in society and they say you need to believe in a higher power.
What good does it really do? It's really impossible to get an accurate view of the success rate due to its anonymous nature but I've seen between 30% and 5% success rate. I may not deny the good it does, but I do ask what good does it do?

Maybe they'd have the same success without the higher power thingy but my thinking is, don't screw with what's working.
That is the fundamental principle behind it.
More marginal organizations? You gotta make your call on a case-by-case basis. You can't make blanket judgements.
I don't know, I've looked at the twelve steps and it seems more focused on recruiting people to drop dollars in the offering plate than it does to treat addiction.

The first step is to admit you are powerless. This is contradictory to recovery from addiction. You are not powerless otherwise you would lack the power to control your addiction.
 
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