Income Gap Between Rich an Poor Biggest In A Century

[Paschendale]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Okay, let's play!

why redistribution doesn't work

Much of the money that goes to the government ends up being wasted, resulting in ineffective government programs, and less wealth for EVERYBODY.

It gets wasted by continually giving it to wealthy people. Especially in the medical industry. They get to charge huge markups on all the medical care that social security and medicare are paying for. Same with military contractors, Halliburton, private prisons... All that government spending is hiring people to do stuff and buying stuff made by private companies. In many cases, we are horribly overcharged for those products and services.

Many are tempted to assume that money collected by the government goes to help the poor and downtrodden. However, much of that money ends up in the hands of the rich and politically connected, those who have the most resources and ability to lobby for it.

Exactly. So why not do something about the lobby money? Instead of the usual conservative mantra which just removes the government as a middle man and allows the rich and powerful to just take all the money with impunity? Bring the government to heel, take the power away from the rich to bend government to their will, and get the money going where we actually want it going.

Socialism concentrates money and power in the hands of the government. When government grows, the greedy and corrupt don’t go away. Conversely, they now have a more powerful tool in their hands, the government itself.

That's way oversimplifying. What government is more powerful than an aristocracy where you can literally buy power? Or how about an ineffective government that cannot protect its citizens from the power of the wealthy? A government, especially one with a constitution, courts, checks and balances... that government is far more accountable to the citizens of a nation than a few powerful wealthy interests.

The richer you are, the easier it is for you to avoid increasing taxation and leave the bill to the middle class.

So how about we stop letting them lobby for loopholes to exploit, and actually make them pay their taxes?

A soak-the-rich, high tax strategy inhibits the economy. And who is hurt the most by a slow economy? Not the rich!

All evidence suggests otherwise. Crippling the middle class inhibits the economy. Putting most of the population into survival mode inhibits the economy. The rich will be fine either way. There's no need to cater to them. Their prosperity doesn't help anyone else. Meanwhile, the lower and middle classes create all the actual wealth by doing all the actual work.

with the transfer of earned wealth that socialist policies mandate are a detriment to entrepreneurship and innovation. Entrepreneurship and innovation are driven by the potential for material rewards. If we take away or reduce the material rewards, we’ll have less innovation. Less innovation means less of all the cool, useful, and life-saving stuff we all love.

Innovation has never suffered from lack of reward for innovating. Most innovation comes from government funded research, not from tinkers in garages. Apple and Microsoft enjoyed government funding to create their products. Medical research and scientific achievement come from government funded enterprises. Tinkers in garages are very seldom the creators of new inventions, and when they are, profit is the last thing on their minds.

high taxes and government regulations make it more difficult to start and grow a business, thereby leaving much greater opportunities for those who are already rich and have the resources to overcome those difficulties.

This one is actually true. So you need higher high taxes, and not so high middle taxes. Small business owners are seldom the beneficiaries of government spending, while huge corporations are. And those huge corporations that are making hundreds of times the profit of the small business are in the same tax bracket. Isn't that kind of weird? So sure, lower the rates on all the current brackets, and then make 5 or 6 more brackets so that the actual rich predators pay their fair share. And stop subsidizing the profits of the rich.

social programs create more demand and need for those very programs in a self perpetuating cycle because given government handouts, people come to expect and rely on them. And therefore, you can never spend enough, because the more you do, the greater the need to do so becomes.

Only if the programs only work to sustain, rather than grow, the median lifestyle. Food stamps and subsidized housing keep the poor from starving and freezing. They don't get the poor into the middle class. Too few of our programs work to being people up out of poverty. Simply making poverty survivable doesn't solve the problem. So why keep cutting education funding and making higher education prohibitively expensive for so many people, and why keep slashing wages? That's what's keeping people poor.

Social programs are a disincentive to work and act responsibly. After all, if some or all of your needs are taken care of, and if someone else picks up the tab whenever something goes wrong, why would you worry about such minor details as work ethic, productivity, financial responsibility and family obligations? Consequently, when productivity takes a downturn, leading to a shrinking economy, guess who suffers… everybody! Oh and as always, the rich suffer the least.

Bull****. You don't need to be risking starvation as a consequence of failure to work hard. Very few people are that petty and selfish.

So, mainly a bunch of debunked conservative memes, false assumptions, and oversimplifications that miss the point. Private power, not public power, is the danger to this country and the people in it.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

And no Middle class people are invested, either directly or through mutual funds, 401k's....

No Union workers benefit through their invested pension plans.

No local governments benefit from the rise in the stocks.......

Okay.

Not at the same scale, or even close, no. The primary beneficiaries are large business owners, and bankers, which is why they both are posting record profits, despite sales being mediocre. The lackluster jobs creation, and the crap jobs created, are just more examples of the failure of the trickle down economic model.

 

[code1211]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

It may be stupid to employ full time workers, but it's certainly not stupid to make profits. Why would you suggest such a thing?

Only if demand isn't growing and the business is operating below full capacity. It's a demand issue, not an Obama issue.



How has Obama punished the rich? I suspect that the lack of business expansion has a lot more to do with not having a sufficient amount of aggregate consumer demand. businesses that have lots of demand have expanded, regardless of anything that Obama has done.

How's this been working out for you? We have a labor participation

It was also lower at the end of the Bush administration that the beginning of the bush administration. And heck, Obama wasn't even POTUS ten years ago. You are acting like a partisan hack.

Measuring anything from a decade ago is a good way to do it. I know that obama was not president 10 years ago. Why does that matter to the nearly 10 million people who have been robbed of all hope and have left the job market. Do you think they care who was the president today or ten years ago? They have hungry children or they are living in their parents basement or they have lost their home or marriage or whatever. Most essentially, though, they have lost their hope.

No demand. Do you read this stuff? Of course there's no demand. There are no people working and not money to spend. Get a clue.

What has obama done to punish the rich? There was a news story on the local news regarding a coal worker about to get laid off because his coal mine had spent something along the line of 10 million dollars on equipment to meet the guidelines set up by the EPA. The roles were changed so the 10 million is money pissed away on nothing useful and the mine will have to close anyway. This is a real person working on a real job that is being shut down by the obama administration.

If profits are taxed too heavily or if investments made to produce more profits made illegal by a snot nosed bureaucrat making a reputation for himself in the EPA, why spend the money? If your profitability is only 3% and you need to go to all the trouble and risk of running a business, there is a powerful argument to just put the cash into a good, safe, guaranteed investment at 3% and let the cash come to you.

When I moved to indianapolis in 1992, it was not possible to be within the city limits and not be able to see one of those huge construction cranes. I saw ONE the other day and it seemed like an oddity.

Is it your assertion, then, that the policies of obstructing the growth of business and levying huge expense items like increased taxes and Obamacare are good for the economy? How about the upcoming and ongoing selection of winners by the government most recently in the favoritism accorded to Unions in letting them avoid Obamacare and all of the previous and politically motivated exemptions of this abortion for those who both supported it and will be hurt by it?

 

[code1211]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

You do realize that Obama can't serve as president for ten years don't you?

No he can't. Nancy and Harry took care of the first two years.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

sounds to me that we produced too many bad MBA's. And thats Obama's fault? And since when was the night manager at Taco Bell not an entry level management position? My first job after graduating with a business degree was as an assistant manager trainee for McD's, I left there and took a job as a store manager for another franchise, then I became a department supervisor for a manufacturing plant, and ultimately owned my own business. Sounds to me that front line management is the first step in a normal business management career track. what, do MBA's expect to get a top corporate CEO position fresh out of college and without any experience?

Depending on who their daddy is, yes. And that's exactly our problem, more and more, in this country.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

their wealth wasn't stolen it was created but you don't know anything about creating wealth so it must be stolen and your little twisted primitive mind

Explain wealth creation?

 

[code1211]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

sounds to me that we produced too many bad MBA's. And thats Obama's fault? And since when was the night manager at Taco Bell not an entry level management position? My first job after graduating with a business degree was as an assistant manager trainee for McD's, I left there and took a job as a store manager for another franchise, then I became a department supervisor for a manufacturing plant, and ultimately owned my own business. Sounds to me that front line management is the first step in a normal business management career track. what, do MBA's expect to get a top corporate CEO position fresh out of college and without any experience?

I quit a job that paid my tuition in college to be an assistant manager at a fast food place. Took a huge cut in pay to do so and it was probably a mistake to do so also. The title is what i was looking for.

My point about the MBA's taking those jobs is that the folks between 20 and 24 according to the BLS are unemployed at the rate of 13%. The MBA's are not taking the fast food jobs because they find that to be the best opportunity. It's the only opportunity.

 

[code1211]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Entrepreneurs are as important to the economic environment as any other group, or moreso, but they are seldom mentioned in any Presidential speeches. The fact is that if it is made difficult for entrepreneurs, or businesses, they will simply move elsewhere, and take their job creating skills with them.

Never having employed anyone and being quite unfamiliar with how a business is run, the concept of free enterprise and what it takes to run and manage a business is as foreign and strange to BHO as the Middle East

The electorate should have realized this but in Barrack Obama they felt they had one of their own, and indeed they did. Not being terribly bright or experienced they could identify with this candidate easily and, with him as their leader, could together lash out against 'the rich' and 'big business', and get that money which rightly belonged to them. But the rich didn't get that way by being stupid so will just move on to a more friendly environment, whether it is to another state or another country, and we can see that happening.

As Romney repeated often, the economy was not hurting him. The "Rich" will always be okay.

When the economy is ginning along, investments occur because the reward for the risk is obvious. When the risk reward equation becomes less clear, that risk investment is often avoided in favor of the less risky avenue and the jobs that would have been created are not.

Obama sees only that some have the money and others don't. he sees a pie of static size and wants to have those with the larger slices get smaller slices.

Americans have traditionally seen our economy as a growing plant that needs watering to grow. Under Obama, the plant is dying and the guy in White House is killing it.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

So unless this huge gap is ameliorated by a steep progressive income tax on the top bracket, and other policies (such as making unionization easier and more widespread) to make sure wealth is allocated more evenly over income brackets, we can expect another Bush-style meltdown.

If the rich have to pay more tax, who do you think is going to suffer for the additional expenses? Do you believe the rich will pay it, or do you believe they'll simply spread the additional cost as far as possible?

 

[code1211]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

If the rich have to pay more tax, who do you think is going to suffer for the additional expenses? Do you believe the rich will pay it, or do you believe they'll simply spread the additional cost as far as possible?

Businesses don't pay taxes, they collect them.

 

[imagep]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

If the rich have to pay more tax, who do you think is going to suffer for the additional expenses? Do you believe the rich will pay it, or do you believe they'll simply spread the additional cost as far as possible?

Personally, although I believe that our income tax system should be more progressive, I haven't been cheering on increasing the tax rate of the rich, only taxing capital gains and inheritance exactly the same way that we tax income.

 

[vesper]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Personally, although I believe that our income tax system should be more progressive, I haven't been cheering on increasing the tax rate of the rich, only taxing capital gains and inheritance exactly the same way that we tax income.

How many times do you think investment income should be taxed?

Americans making money from investments typically earn dividends. They face a lower rate to reduce the tax barrier to investing and growing businesses. For Americans in the lowest two income brackets, the tax rate on dividends is zero. For all the rest, the dividend tax rate is 15 percent. But what people often fail to recognize, those dividends were already taxed at the corporate level. Few investments are one and done. Most are earned taxed dividends and capital gains over extended periods that are reinvested and taxed again and again. And then for the forth time the money is taxed at the individual rate as wage or salary income. When you add it all up the government is taking around 50% from the time the profits were generated to taxing salary income. How much more do you want?

The problem is that people read the dividend tax rate at only 15 percent and think those generating wealth aren't paying their fair share when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[imagep]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

How many times do you think investment income should be taxed?

There is no prohibition in multiple taxation. I get taxed when I make a buck by the state and by the federal government. I get taxed again when I buy something, I get taxed again when I own certain items, and taxed again and again. We don't actually tax money, we tax transactions. It's something that will always happen, as long as we have more than one type of tax.

The problem is that people read the dividend tax rate at only 15 percent and think those generating wealth aren't paying their fair share when nothing could be further from the truth.

No, the problem is that if I go to work and make a buck by actually producing something, I have to pay a higher marginal tax rate than the guy who makes a buck just by owning a portion of the company that I work for, and without having to actually put forth any mental of physical effort or personally produce anything.

Why in the world do we tax income that is derived from WORK? Any time you tax something, you get less of it, because that tax is essentially a penalty. So we want people to work less or be less personally productive?

by the way, I have a pict of me and my wife and our kid standing in that building. Cool place, Puerto Rico is.

 

[vesper]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

There is no prohibition in multiple taxation. I get taxed when I make a buck by the state and by the federal government. I get taxed again when I buy something, I get taxed again when I own certain items, and taxed again and again. We don't actually tax money, we tax transactions. It's something that will always happen, as long as we have more than one type of tax.



No, the problem is that if I go to work and make a buck by actually producing something, I have to pay a higher marginal tax rate than the guy who makes a buck just by owning a portion of the company that I work for, and without having to actually put forth any mental of physical effort or personally produce anything.

Why in the world do we tax income that is derived from WORK? Any time you tax something, you get less of it, because that tax is essentially a penalty. So we want people to work less or be less personally productive?

by the way, I have a pict of me and my wife and our kid standing in that building. Cool place, Puerto Rico is.

If it were not for investors willing to risk their money for the company you work for, good chance you may not have a job.
You are the first to recognize the picture. Had a fabulous time in Puerto Rico. Cheers!

 

[Grant]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Explain wealth creation?

You genuinely don't know how wealth is created?

Perhaps that's something that should be taught in schools. It would probably do a lot more good than learning algebra.

 

[Grant]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Personally, although I believe that our income tax system should be more progressive, I haven't been cheering on increasing the tax rate of the rich, only taxing capital gains and inheritance exactly the same way that we tax income.

As long as the people focus on raising taxes rather than cutting spending the problems will persist, no matter how much 'the rich' pay.

Most will just leave the country before that happens because they see the consequences of governments who make political claims like 'the rich should pay their fair share' and will simply stop investing or move elsewhere. Other countries are trying to encourage investment and would definitely welcome American entrepreneurs.

 

[imagep]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

If it were not for investors willing to risk their money for the company you work for, good chance you may not have a job.
You are the first to recognize the picture. Had a fabulous time in Puerto Rico. Cheers!

I created my own job, by starting my own company. I am the investor that risked my own money to create my job, and a few other peoples jobs. My point is that job creators, the actual people who start companies, don't get the capital gains tax discount, we have to pay full price for being productive. One of the requirements for capital gains discount tax rate is that it is passive income, meaning the owner of the investment did not materially participate in the creation of the goods and services that the profit was generated from. Thats kind of screwed up. We penalize the entrapanure for creating, and reward the financier who does personally doesn't have to do the work.

 

[Grant]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

I created my own job, by starting my own company. I am the investor that risked my own money to create my job, and a few other peoples jobs. My point is that job creators, the actual people who start companies, don't get the capital gains tax discount, we have to pay full price for being productive. One of the requirements for capital gains discount tax rate is that it is passive income, meaning the owner of the investment did not materially participate in the creation of the goods and services that the profit was generated from. Thats kind of screwed up. We penalize the entrapanure for creating, and reward the financier who does personally doesn't have to do the work.

Financing business ventures is work, and quite risky work. The person who created the wealth in order to finance other projects may be at a time in their lives where they are not as able to work like they once did but now can study and research which company they may invest in, which in itself is work.

Money is a tool and you can use it that way or you can use it to buy those goods which give immediate gratification. Investors tend to do the former rather than the latter.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

You genuinely don't know how wealth is created?

Perhaps that's something that should be taught in schools. It would probably do a lot more good than learning algebra.

Well, I'm not in school anymore, so why don't you explain your theory on wealth creation?

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

As long as the people focus on raising taxes rather than cutting spending the problems will persist, no matter how much 'the rich' pay.

Most will just leave the country before that happens because they see the consequences of governments who make political claims like 'the rich should pay their fair share' and will simply stop investing or move elsewhere. Other countries are trying to encourage investment and would definitely welcome American entrepreneurs.

I 100% agree with paragraph one.

 

[Helix]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

When new wealth gets concentrated in the hands of a few who already have it, it creates No demand No New jobs
It has little-to-no Velocity.
Reducing the top marginal Income tax rate And Cap Gains/Divs/Estate-Tax rates has Not helped anyone but the very few.

it's no surprise that when income inequality hits its peak, we always have crashes. it's because of risky gambling creating bubbles. when those bubbles pop, the rest of us have to deal with the consequences.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Explain wealth creation?

I will give you an example of wealth creation so you can easily understand

an artist takes a hundred dollars of paint and canvass and through his talent and labor he paints a picture that is valued at a 1000 dollars he just created 900 dollars worth of wealth

 

[What if...?]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

Personally, although I believe that our income tax system should be more progressive, I haven't been cheering on increasing the tax rate of the rich, only taxing capital gains and inheritance exactly the same way that we tax income.

Maybe a little tax on non-productive, masturbatory financial transactions as well.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

I will give you an example of wealth creation so you can easily understand

an artist takes a hundred dollars of paint and canvass and through his talent and labor he paints a picture that is valued at a 1000 dollars he just created 900 dollars worth of wealth

If someone loaned him the hundred dollars, or provided the materials, who created the wealth then?

 

[mbig]

Re: Income Gap Between Rich And Poor Biggest In A Century

I will give you an example of wealth creation so you can easily understand

an artist takes a hundred dollars of paint and canvass and through his talent and labor he paints a picture that is valued at a 1000 dollars he just created 900 dollars worth of wealth

And I'll give you an example of what's the current problem Is using your analogy.
I collect art of many types.
Things like Vintage American Prints that sold for said "$1000" 6-10 years ago, now sell for $400-$600.
Ones that sold for $300-$400 have No market at all.
That's because the [former] Middle class collector has No money to spend on art, the money is now for necessities.
That's "destruction" of value because of the destruction of the customer.
At the same time, ultra high end art soars to dizzying new records.

We have a Lack of demand recession.
Rich individuals and Companies are sitting on Record Cash Hordes. They don't need capital or capital gains tax breaks; the problem is there not enough new Customers to justify building a new plant to produce cars/computers etc.
Low wages/wage inequality and shipping jobs overseas Backfires at some point: that point we have long since passed.

More Progessive taxes is one the few significant remedies for this intractable problem.
And I don't mean unprecedented taxes, I mean taxes even less progressive than existed from 1930-1980 before Reagan started the War for the Rich.
We must begin REVERSING the Class Warfare started by Ronald Reagan and eventually finished/WON by Bush II's near Halving of CapGains/Divs/Estate Taxes.
Top Marginal Inc Tax rate was 70% when he took office.

Tax Reform Act of 1986 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The top tax rate was Lowered from 50% to 28% while the bottom rate was Raised from 11% to 15%. Many lower level tax brackets were consolidated, and the upper income level of the bottom rate (married filing jointly) was increased from $5,720/year to $29,750/year. This package ultimately consolidated tax brackets from fifteen levels of income to four levels of income.[1] This would be the Only time in the history of the U.S. income tax (which dates back to the passage of the Revenue Act of 1862) that the top rate was reduced and the bottom rate increased concomitantly. In addition, capital gains faced the same tax rate as ordinary income.
[......]​

It's no wonder they put him up in those nice houses.
Any attempt to even partly Reverse the incredible Class warfare, is ironically/hypocritically called by the same name.
What makes/made America, America was a large Middle Class that was engineered in good degree by Taxes.