In your opinion is Ashli Babbit a traitor or a hero?

[Fledermaus]

Let me break this down for you.

If you are trying to accuse someone of something that they didn't do because you THINK they would have done some other thing, that is thought crime.

We don't really have that here. Not difficult to prove in court. IMPOSSIBLE to prove in court.

So until that changes, good luck labeling this fiasco an insurrection or seditious. They will continue to prosecute these people with the actual crimes they committed. So far, it is a far cry from sedition.

What does the dictionary say about insurrection?

 

[GummyVitamins]

LOL... Everywhere but court... Some people viewed the southern states attempting to secede as a noble cause, history has not been kind to the efforts. No question Trump supporters will be viewed as ignorant and incompetent and not just from the poor attempt at an insurrection....

I agree. This will all become far more evident as we celebrate the annual remembrance of the insurrection holiday. We'll never forget the hundreds of people who were charged with trespassing at the Capitol.

 

[Elmo]

Let me break this down for you.

If you are trying to accuse someone of something that they didn't do because you THINK they would have done some other thing, that is thought crime.

We don't really have that here. Not difficult to prove in court. IMPOSSIBLE to prove in court.

So until that changes, good luck labeling this fiasco an insurrection or seditious. They will continue to prosecute these people with the actual crimes they committed. So far, it is a far cry from sedition.

So I take it you DON'T have any examples of someone generalizing this to all conservatives, since you ignored that part of the post.

For the rest, you are simply wrong. It is not impossible to prove intent in court, it is just difficult. It happens all the time and there's a whole category of crimes that rely on it.

What are “Specific Intent Crimes”? A defense lawyer explains

Specific intent crimes are those offenses where a prosecutor must prove (and beyond a reasonable doubt) that the defendant intended to commit a certain harm. This means a specific intent is a necessary element of the crime itself. Examples of specific intent crimes are: arson, burglary, forgery...

www.shouselaw.com

It would have been "thought crime" if they had gone about their regular lives and idly thought about overthrowing our election and somehow been arrested for that. Instead, they bought plane tickets, joined a mob, beat up police officers, and screamed "hang Mike Pence!" while breaking into the secure building where he was executing his duty. In every crime where it is relevant, intent is inferred from actions. Which is what every person with half a brain is doing for these seditionists.

Please tell me, what do you think they would have done if they had caught Pelosi, or AOC, or Pence in a room without security? Peaceful protest? Harsh words? Or far worse?

 

[Buckeyes85]

Does that go the same for the left when they start burning and looting.

Trying to figure out what your question actually is: should looters and arsonists be treated like looters and arsonists? If that's the question, the answer is an obvious yes.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I label them insurrectionist because they fit the dictionary definition.

And they tried to stop the election process. That is the only thing the "party puppets in congress" were there for.



Irrelevant to the events of 1/6

Sorry but congress works for and serves the people. If and when "We the People" believe the are no longer doing what the people want we show up and protest. We let them know we want them to stop what they are doing and/or make changes. This has been a part of how we keep government from ruling over the people and forcing them to serve the people. According to you all our founding fathers were insurrectionist. If that is the definition then count me in as well. Save the mob rule or majority rule bull for the clueless. We are not a democracy where 51% of the people get to boss around the other 49%. Yes the minority and even the individual have a say. No the majority of people were not in the building nor were they endangering congress. Protesters need to be up close and heard by our leaders. If they continue to try and stop this process then they better be prepared for the people to do whatever it takes to be heard.

 

[Elmo]

Sorry but congress works for and serves the people. If and when "We the People" believe the are no longer doing what the people want we show up and protest. We let them know we want them to stop what they are doing and/or make changes. This has been a part of how we keep government from ruling over the people and forcing them to serve the people. According to you all our founding fathers were insurrectionist. If that is the definition then count me in as well. Save the mob rule or majority rule bull for the clueless. We are not a democracy where 51% of the people get to boss around the other 49%. Yes the minority and even the individual have a say. No the majority of people were not in the building nor were they endangering congress. Protesters need to be up close and heard by our leaders. If they continue to try and stop this process then they better be prepared for the people to do whatever it takes to be heard.

Just curious, do you stick to those principles when discussing protests you disagree with? Do you support them doing "whatever it takes" to be heard?

 

[Cope]

Decent persons would have left the Capitol when violence broke out, why did they stay and follow the violent 500?

Decent people get caught up in violent protests all the time. Or are the Portland , Seattle , et al riots of the Summer protests just all bad folks who should have left once the rioting started?

I almost agree with you, as a matter of personal responsibility they should all be doing what is the best course of action is for them. To me, that would be not breaking the law.

As long as we can all agree that the both sides here, are exactly that. BOTH sides.

 

[ultmd]

When an unarmed citizen is shot there are always better choices.

Disagree.

There aren't better choices when an allegedly unarmed citizen is at the head of a violent mob that had just forcibly broken into the US Capital building by attacking the Capital police force charged with protecting the grounds.....and while chanting violent slogans and promising to take over the government.

There are "always better choices" when the police choose to shoot unarmed, isolated citizens on the streets of our cities. Not so much in the case of Ashley Babbit.

If any other group of Americans (or foreign nationals) did to the US Capital a FRACTION of what the white nationalists did on Jan6....the grounds and the streets of DC would have been covered in blood. And we all know that.

That's the simplest illustration of the ultimate problem facing this country right now.

 

[Cope]

So I take it you DON'T have any examples of someone generalizing this to all conservatives, since you ignored that part of the post.

For the rest, you are simply wrong. It is not impossible to prove intent in court, it is just difficult. It happens all the time and there's a whole category of crimes that rely on it.

What are “Specific Intent Crimes”? A defense lawyer explains

Specific intent crimes are those offenses where a prosecutor must prove (and beyond a reasonable doubt) that the defendant intended to commit a certain harm. This means a specific intent is a necessary element of the crime itself. Examples of specific intent crimes are: arson, burglary, forgery...

www.shouselaw.com

It would have been "thought crime" if they had gone about their regular lives and idly thought about overthrowing our election and somehow been arrested for that. Instead, they bought plane tickets, joined a mob, beat up police officers, and screamed "hang Mike Pence!" while breaking into the secure building where he was executing his duty. In every crime where it is relevant, intent is inferred from actions. Which is what every person with half a brain is doing for these seditionists.

Please tell me, what do you think they would have done if they had caught Pelosi, or AOC, or Pence in a room without security? Peaceful protest? Harsh words? Or far worse?

I don't really know, and here's the thing you don't either.

It is also likely that is exactly why they are not charging them with such acts.

We can all imagine what would happen. We would all be imagining different things and that is damn near impossible to prove.

 

[Fledermaus]

Sorry but congress works for and serves the people. If and when "We the People" believe the are no longer doing what the people want we show up and protest. We let them know we want them to stop what they are doing and/or make changes. This has been a part of how we keep government from ruling over the people and forcing them to serve the people. According to you all our founding fathers were insurrectionist. If that is the definition then count me in as well. Save the mob rule or majority rule bull for the clueless. We are not a democracy where 51% of the people get to boss around the other 49%. Yes the minority and even the individual have a say. No the majority of people were not in the building nor were they endangering congress. Protesters need to be up close and heard by our leaders. If they continue to try and stop this process then they better be prepared for the people to do whatever it takes to be heard.

We the people elected President Biden.

The Insurrection was not merely a protest. It was a violent attack on Congress in an attempt to overthrow the legal and lawful election.

You are trying to sugar coat a cess pool.

 

[Elmo]

I don't really know, and here's the thing you don't either.

It is also likely that is exactly why they are not charging them with such acts.

We can all imagine what would happen. We would all be imagining different things and that is damn near impossible to prove.

Uh huh, we don't know with certainty because they were stopped. Which is why prosecutors are choosing to prosecute for lesser crimes that are more easily proven. A point I already made in my previous post. In case you missed it:

It is difficult to prove intent in court, so prosecutors are charging them based on what they provably accomplished. It is entirely reasonable to label them based on their (clear but unproven) intent, rather than the lesser charges

This forum is not a court of law. You and I are both thinking human beings who can guess their intent based on the evidence. There is ample video of their actions, and many of them spoke and wrote their goals. I'll ask again, based on all that evidence, what do you think they would have done if they caught Pelosi, or AOC, or Pence without security?

Can you tell me, with a straight face, that you think they would have presented their grievances and left with no harm done? I think they would have CONTINUED and ESCALATED their violence, so I'm going to keep calling them seditionists.

 

[roguenuke]

Does that go the same for the left when they start burning and looting.

The "left" isn't what we are discussing here, because the "left" did not attack the Capitol, with some of them trying to take over the Capitol, have Congress members arrested and very likely had plans to try members of Congress on their own, "punish" them as they saw fit.

This is about the attacks on Jan 6th. Maybe you all should stop deflecting to try to avoid any sort of honest discussion. Circumstances matter for all situations. That is my stance. I support officers taking appropriate actions given circumstances they actually face at any time.

 

[roguenuke]

The difference is the protesters you are labeling insurrectionist were focused on the actual problem our party puppets in congress. The burning and looting by the left are destroying everything innocent people worked their whole life for. I know which ones I would rather back.

They were only focused on their own beliefs in conspiracy theories and lies. That is what they were focused on, and we have their words and claims during and before the attack to prove it.

 

[roguenuke]

Sorry but congress works for and serves the people. If and when "We the People" believe the are no longer doing what the people want we show up and protest. We let them know we want them to stop what they are doing and/or make changes. This has been a part of how we keep government from ruling over the people and forcing them to serve the people. According to you all our founding fathers were insurrectionist. If that is the definition then count me in as well. Save the mob rule or majority rule bull for the clueless. We are not a democracy where 51% of the people get to boss around the other 49%. Yes the minority and even the individual have a say. No the majority of people were not in the building nor were they endangering congress. Protesters need to be up close and heard by our leaders. If they continue to try and stop this process then they better be prepared for the people to do whatever it takes to be heard.

We the people voted for Biden, put President Biden into that office. Congress was confirming that. You have no credible evidence to show differently nor do those who attacked the Capitol.

Nothing about the attack on Congress has anything to do with our Republic, except it goes against our concepts because it was based on lies that were/are being pushed by a con artist loser and his allies.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Just curious, do you stick to those principles when discussing protests you disagree with? Do you support them doing "whatever it takes" to be heard?

To be honest our both parties have stopped listening to the people a long time ago. Both parties are funded by the rich and powerful and our leaders are nothing but party puppets. The parties do the bidding of the rich and powerful who fund them. The Clintons received a 1/4 of a billion dollars for speeches from the rich and powerful. If you don't think that much money can bribe almost anyone you are a fool. Now that the Clintons are no longer in a position to grant political favors none of these big corporations are paying to hear them talk. A 1/4 of a billion is chump change in comparison to how much money is flowing into the 2 parties. Then you add in the fact that these same rich and powerful own all of our media. We are talking TV, Radio, Newspapers, Magazines, Internet, and lets not forget the bankers who make up the FED who controls all out money. When FDR took all the peoples gold and doubled the price over night. Who do you think got all that gold. These same rich and powerful who own and run the banks that make up the FED. Every man woman and child in this country had their worth cut in half with that deal as the promissory notes they were given for that gold lost half of its value. That was a great deal for those who got the gold and issued those notes.

We clearly need to clean house. Both houses of congress and the puppet in chief.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

We the people voted for Biden, put President Biden into that office. Congress was confirming that. You have no credible evidence to show differently nor do those who attacked the Capitol.

Nothing about the attack on Congress has anything to do with our Republic, except it goes against our concepts because it was based on lies that were/are being pushed by a con artist loser and his allies.

There were people all over this country questioning the last election including me. The democrats were told to mail in their votes and were sent multiple ballots. These ballots were counted by who. Not by the poll workers who have doing it 200+ years. No it was done behind closed doors with only a select few people doing the counting. This is something I would expect from a country like Russia. Then Trump tells the republicans to go in person to vote. So guess what the lefty leaders do in a battleground state? They move the polling sites from where they have been for decades. Everyone who showed up said they were lucky to find where to vote. A lot of people just gave up when on their way home from work they stopped by where they have been voting for decades to find out the polls have been moved to some obscure location not even in their district. I know because I asked a lot of the people I didn't see if they had mailed in their ballot and they said no because Trump told them to show up at the polls but we could not figure out where to vote so we said the hell with it.

So when I asked why the polling places were moved they said because of covid19. So because of covid19 we move from a large open air firehouse to small garage behind a church with 5 other districts packed in with us. There was nowhere near enough room to even consider social distancing in the worst of a pandemic. Then when I talked to the person in charge who normally lets us use the firehall he was surprised that it was moved from a large spacious location to such a small over crowded area. Oh there was a lot of sneaky underhanded things happening during the election that I saw first hand. Then you have all the counting of votes behind closed doors which should be a red flag to any intelligent person. I could write a book on the corruption during this last election. But what else should we expect from bought and paid for corrupt leaders.

 

[Fledermaus]

There were people all over this country questioning the last election including me. The democrats were told to mail in their votes and were sent multiple ballots. These ballots were counted by who. Not by the poll workers who have doing it 200+ years. No it was done behind closed doors with only a select few people doing the counting. This is something I would expect from a country like Russia. Then Trump tells the republicans to go in person to vote. So guess what the lefty leaders do in a battleground state? They move the polling sites from where they have been for decades. Everyone who showed up said they were lucky to find where to vote. A lot of people just gave up when on their way home from work they stopped by where they have been voting for decades to find out the polls have been moved to some obscure location not even in their district. I know because I asked a lot of the people I didn't see if they had mailed in their ballot and they said no because Trump told them to show up at the polls but we could not figure out where to vote so we said the hell with it.

So when I asked why the polling places were moved they said because of covid19. So because of covid19 we move from a large open air firehouse to small garage behind a church with 5 other districts packed in with us. There was nowhere near enough room to even consider social distancing in the worst of a pandemic. Then when I talked to the person in charge who normally lets us use the firehall he was surprised that it was moved from a large spacious location to such a small over crowded area. Oh there was a lot of sneaky underhanded things happening during the election that I saw first hand. Then you have all the counting of votes behind closed doors which should be a red flag to any intelligent person. I could write a book on the corruption during this last election. But what else should we expect from bought and paid for corrupt leaders.

Oh FFS.

Biden won.

Absolutely.

Positively.

 

[roguenuke]

There were people all over this country questioning the last election including me. The democrats were told to mail in their votes and were sent multiple ballots. These ballots were counted by who. Not by the poll workers who have doing it 200+ years. No it was done behind closed doors with only a select few people doing the counting. This is something I would expect from a country like Russia. Then Trump tells the republicans to go in person to vote. So guess what the lefty leaders do in a battleground state? They move the polling sites from where they have been for decades. Everyone who showed up said they were lucky to find where to vote. A lot of people just gave up when on their way home from work they stopped by where they have been voting for decades to find out the polls have been moved to some obscure location not even in their district. I know because I asked a lot of the people I didn't see if they had mailed in their ballot and they said no because Trump told them to show up at the polls but we could not figure out where to vote so we said the hell with it.

So when I asked why the polling places were moved they said because of covid19. So because of covid19 we move from a large open air firehouse to small garage behind a church with 5 other districts packed in with us. There was nowhere near enough room to even consider social distancing in the worst of a pandemic. Then when I talked to the person in charge who normally lets us use the firehall he was surprised that it was moved from a large spacious location to such a small over crowded area. Oh there was a lot of sneaky underhanded things happening during the election that I saw first hand. Then you have all the counting of votes behind closed doors which should be a red flag to any intelligent person. I could write a book on the corruption during this last election. But what else should we expect from bought and paid for corrupt leaders.

Those people were questioning it because they were told by their preferred candidate to question it, given little tidbits of information to feed and manifest conspiracy theories.

Provide evidence for each of the claims you are making above. I wasn't sent multiple ballots and everyone was told in various places they could vote by mail by requesting a ballot (few sent them out that were not already setup to do so, since some states have had mailin for everyone for years). They were not counted differently than before unless it was clearly done, and there were observers by law. Prove polling sites were moved without notifying people. My own was open just fine for election day voting. I voted early, so had to go somewhere else, but that was easily able to be discovered by a simple online search and it was on the news. A lot of people gave up because of that, and you are saying it was Dems? Prove it. "I asked a lot of the people" is BS anecdotal crap. Provide evidence. You need actual evidence not claims that can't be backed up.

Note how I provide even enough evidence to verify what I claim by just showing where I'm from, where I live, and you don't. You provide no evidence for your claims, just claims. And you certainly provide nothing to show that it is true at all.

There are people all over this country that believe that 9/11 was an inside job and we never walked on the moon. People can be idiots.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Oh FFS.

Biden won.

Absolutely.

Positively.

If and/or when the republicans pull the same thing will be OK then as well?

 

[Buckeyes85]

If and/or when the republicans pull the same thing will be OK then as well?

By "pull the same thing" you mean over see a fair and honest election? Yes, we will be ok with that.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Provide evidence for each of the claims you are making above. I wasn't sent multiple ballots and everyone was told in various places they could vote by mail by requesting a ballot (few sent them out that were not already setup to do so, since some states have had mailin for everyone for years). They were not counted differently than before unless it was clearly done, and there were observers by law. Prove polling sites were moved without notifying people. My own was open just fine for election day voting. I voted early, so had to go somewhere else, but that was easily able to be discovered by a simple online search and it was on the news. A lot of people gave up because of that, and you are saying it was Dems? Prove it. "I asked a lot of the people" is BS anecdotal crap. Provide evidence. You need actual evidence not claims that can't be backed up.

First off you don't have to worry about every state. Only the states where a land slide victory is only a couple of percentage points. In my state they were clearly counted differently. I worked the polls and we had to account for the mail in ballots. Usually we had between 10 to 25 mail in ballots depending on the election. This last election we never saw or recorded any. I work the polls and they were moved. The difference is I know what is happening while you believe the propaganda being fed to you by our bought and paid for government and media.

Where I currently work the polls is where I grew up, where my parents grew up, where my grandparents grew up, and where my great grand parents grew up. I know these people. I didn't realize how many of the elderly people who have voted in the same place for 40 years would be confused by moving the polls. They moved the polls into into another district. I really wish I would have seen that one coming. I would have not worked the polls and I would have taken them to vote. When I didn't see them show up and vote for the first time in decades yes I asked them what happened. The answer was the same I couldn't find where to vote. You might think this is Ok to do to the elderly. Screwing them out of their vote as long as your party wins is just fine. I don't have to prove it because it happened and clearly our government thinks it is OK as well.

 

[roguenuke]

First off you don't have to worry about every state. Only the states where a land slide victory is only a couple of percentage points. In my state they were clearly counted differently. I worked the polls and we had to account for the mail in ballots. Usually we had between 10 to 25 mail in ballots depending on the election. This last election we never saw or recorded any. I work the polls and they were moved. The difference is I know what is happening while you believe the propaganda being fed to you by our bought and paid for government and media.

Where I currently work the polls is where I grew up, where my parents grew up, where my grandparents grew up, and where my great grand parents grew up. I know these people. I didn't realize how many of the elderly people who have voted in the same place for 40 years would be confused by moving the polls. They moved the polls into into another district. I really wish I would have seen that one coming. I would have not worked the polls and I would have taken them to vote. When I didn't see them show up and vote for the first time in decades yes I asked them what happened. The answer was the same I couldn't find where to vote. You might think this is Ok to do to the elderly. Screwing them out of their vote as long as your party wins is just fine. I don't have to prove it because it happened and clearly our government thinks it is OK as well.

Those states are all you are worried about because you want your guy to have won. He didn't. President Biden was elected, people chose him to be President.

The propaganda isn't being fed to me on this. You are believing a known con artist. Several in fact.

I don't care about your history. Show evidence that the polls in your area moved, without giving you or those in the area any notice beforehand. It sounds like you are either confused or lying because you still refuse to give any sort of evidence of this happening. The closest I can come up with is during the primaries they moved some. You haven't even shown that your area is run by Democrats, so as far as any of us know, it could have happened but actually have been the Republicans, which would be a lot more likely given the circumstances you are describing as rural areas are normally Republican run and individual counties, precincts generally get to decide on those things.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Those states are all you are worried about because you want your guy to have won. He didn't. President Biden was elected, people chose him to be President.

The propaganda isn't being fed to me on this. You are believing a known con artist. Several in fact.

I don't care about your history. Show evidence that the polls in your area moved, without giving you or those in the area any notice beforehand. It sounds like you are either confused or lying because you still refuse to give any sort of evidence of this happening. The closest I can come up with is during the primaries they moved some. You haven't even shown that your area is run by Democrats, so as far as any of us know, it could have happened but actually have been the Republicans, which would be a lot more likely given the circumstances you are describing as rural areas are normally Republican run and individual counties, precincts generally get to decide on those things.

Polls not only were moved but polls didn't even open. People showed up to vote on their way to work and nobody was there. I never have seen so much done to make sure the election process that has worked since we became a country was in so much chaos. We will have better luck getting to the truth about where the Wuhan flu came from than figuring out if our election was rigged or not. You noticed how the media has blacked out the border problem. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of this administrations ability to deceive the public.