In desperation, the Bushies went to the hospital to seek permission

[Stinger]

So you weren't. Too bad it's a serious matter, our National Security that is.

 

[Stace]

Are you serious?

Uh, yes, quite serious.

Common sense says that most people don't want to be bothered with work just before or just after a surgery, especially when they have someone else that is capable of handling what the patient normally would.

 

[Stinger]

Uh, yes, quite serious.

Common sense says that most people don't want to be bothered with work just before or just after a surgery, especially when they have someone else that is capable of handling what the patient normally would.

I think you take your assumptions as fact. And anyone who engages in the "Daddy" this and that is arguing at a much lower intellect than I care to engage in.

 

[Stace]

I think you take your assumptions as fact. And anyone who engages in the "Daddy" this and that is arguing at a much lower intellect than I care to engage in.

Stinger, are you aware of what happens when you assume? I'll presume that you do, therefore, if only for that reason, stop assuming things about me and we'll get along so much better.

That being said, I am not making assumptions, the bottom line is that

*Ashcroft was in the hospital.
*Comey was the acting AG, therefore, capable of making decisions in Ashcroft's stead.
*Comey indicated that he would not give his approval to certify certain aspects of the program, so Card and Gonzales went to Ashcroft in search of a different answer.

I believe that Ashcroft was in the ICU (intensive care unit) at the time of the visit. This was overheard in the ICU:

Daddy, the Acting Daddy told us we couldn't do what we wanted to do. The White House will not accept that as our answer. Will you give us permission to do whatever we want? Please, Daddy? Pretty please with sugar on top?

See, I'm not the one that made the "Daddy" remarks. But aps is absolutely correct, it's like a teenager that wants to go to a party, and they know Mom will say no, so they ask Dad instead.

 

[oldreliable67]

See, I'm not the one that made the "Daddy" remarks. But aps is absolutely correct, it's like a teenager that wants to go to a party, and they know Mom will say no, so they ask Dad instead.

Whoa, lets back up a moment. Remember, this is a national security measure we're talking about here, not some teenager's party. Given the seriousness of the measure and apparent perceived value of the program, how can you seriously blame them for going to the hospital to seek approval if they felt strongly about the necessity and value of the program? Lets get our priorities in order.

 

[Caine]

Whoa, lets back up a moment. Remember, this is a national security measure we're talking about here, not some teenager's party. Given the seriousness of the measure and apparent perceived value of the program, how can you seriously blame them for going to the hospital to seek approval if they felt strongly about the necessity and value of the program? Lets get our priorities in order.

Its funny, Bush and Company can put the "National Security" label on anything and the American public will say, "Okay, Okay"

Sad...
Priorities in Order...... Lets see, Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid, because Paranoia is Patriotism....

Okay, your all good in Bush's eyes now.

 

[oldreliable67]

Its funny, Bush and Company can put the "National Security" label on anything and the American public will say, "Okay, Okay"

Are you saying that the NSA surveillance program had nothing to do with national security?

 

[aps]

Stinger, are you aware of what happens when you assume? I'll presume that you do, therefore, if only for that reason, stop assuming things about me and we'll get along so much better.

That being said, I am not making assumptions, the bottom line is that

*Ashcroft was in the hospital.
*Comey was the acting AG, therefore, capable of making decisions in Ashcroft's stead.
*Comey indicated that he would not give his approval to certify certain aspects of the program, so Card and Gonzales went to Ashcroft in search of a different answer.



See, I'm not the one that made the "Daddy" remarks. But aps is absolutely correct, it's like a teenager that wants to go to a party, and they know Mom will say no, so they ask Dad instead.

You tell 'em, Stace! I didn't know you had mentioned any "Daddy" remarks. :lol: Ain't that the truth.

Whoa, lets back up a moment. Remember, this is a national security measure we're talking about here, not some teenager's party. Given the seriousness of the measure and apparent perceived value of the program, how can you seriously blame them for going to the hospital to seek approval if they felt strongly about the necessity and value of the program? Lets get our priorities in order.

I hear what you're saying, big Daddy , but I am going to have to disagree. Personally, if, objectively, this was about national security, do you genuinely think that Comey would have said no? I think it looks horrible that after being told no by the Acting AG that they would run to the AG, who was in the ICU no less, and get his permission. The rumor is that Ashcroft said no as well--that he would not overrule Comey (good for him), but that the White House changed something and then Comey gave the okay.

 

[Lefty]

Are you saying that the NSA surveillance program had nothing to do with national security?

Perhaps he is saying that you can't just say "oh we have to do this for national security" and then get away with anything. There has to be some oversight, some... checks and balances, if you will.

 

[Stinger]

Stinger, are you aware of what happens when you assume? I'll presume that you do, therefore, if only for that reason, stop assuming things about me and we'll get along so much better.

My upmost applologies but when you answer in the first person a direct question posed to someone else (especially with this forum software)..........................


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Are you serious?

Asked of Aps by me

Uh, yes, quite serious.

Your answer.

See, I'm not the one that made the "Daddy" remarks. But aps is absolutely correct, it's like a teenager that wants to go to a party, and they know Mom will say no, so they ask Dad instead.

Sorry but I find these analagoies quite factitious, this is not about Mommies and Daddies and going to parties. This is about our national security. Perhaps when you guys get that through your head you will better understand.

From the article

"The unusual meeting was prompted because Mr. Ashcroft's top deputy, James B. Comey, who was acting as attorney general in his absence, had indicated he was unwilling to give his approval to certifying central aspects of the program, as required under the White House procedures set up to oversee it."


Yes when the temporary acting AG was presented with this MAJOR policy initiative he simply declined to sign on. A proceedure set-up by the White House to assure the law was protected. Not that unusal for an TEMPROARY ACTING cabinet official with such a sensitive issue I would think.

*Ashcroft was in the hospital.

And not in ICU, my Mother had gall bladder surgery a few years ago, she's 80 years old, it's done with a 1" incestion these days and she went home that afternoon. So it's baseless insinuation some are trying to make the Ashcroft was on his deathbed or incapabitated in anyway.

*Comey was the acting AG, therefore, capable of making decisions in Ashcroft's stead.

But he choose otherwise on such an important matter.

*Comey indicated that he would not give his approval to certify certain aspects of the program, so Card and Gonzales went to Ashcroft in search of a different answer.

He didn't approve or disapprove and I'm not that surprised on such an important matter. It went upstream to the top, Ashcroft who is also a confirmed cabinet official.

What I find when I read the article is a reporter using adjectives such as "unusal" to describe the meeting when we don't know that to be the case at all. That it is based on "unnamed sources" and that Comey has had every opportunity to voice his objection to the policy and has not, he kicked it upstairs when it was presented to him as the temporary acting AG, a prudent move in my opinion.

 

[Stace]

My upmost applologies but when you answer in the first person a direct question posed to someone else (especially with this forum software)..........................

You quoted one of my posts, and then asked "Are you serious?" Therefore, one would logically presume that you were asking ME if I was serious.

Sorry but I find these analagoies quite factitious, this is not about Mommies and Daddies and going to parties. This is about our national security. Perhaps when you guys get that through your head you will better understand.

Oh, we understand that it's about "national security". What we don't understand is why they're ACTING like teenagers that want to go to a party.

From the article

"The unusual meeting was prompted because Mr. Ashcroft's top deputy, James B. Comey, who was acting as attorney general in his absence, had indicated he was unwilling to give his approval to certifying central aspects of the program, as required under the White House procedures set up to oversee it."


Yes when the temporary acting AG was presented with this MAJOR policy initiative he simply declined to sign on. A proceedure set-up by the White House to assure the law was protected. Not that unusal for an TEMPROARY ACTING cabinet official with such a sensitive issue I would think.

If he declined to sign on, they should have either accepted that or waited for Ashcroft to return to work.

*Ashcroft was in the hospital.

And not in ICU, my Mother had gall bladder surgery a few years ago, she's 80 years old, it's done with a 1" incestion these days and she went home that afternoon. So it's baseless insinuation some are trying to make the Ashcroft was on his deathbed or incapabitated in anyway.

From the article:

With Mr. Comey unwilling to sign off on the program, the White House went to Mr. Ashcroft - who had been in the intensive care unit at George Washington University Hospital with pancreatitis and was housed under unusually tight security - because "they needed him for certification," according to an official briefed on the episode. The official, like others who discussed the issue, spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the classified nature of the program.

*Comey was the acting AG, therefore, capable of making decisions in Ashcroft's stead.

But he choose otherwise on such an important matter.

And as acting AG, that was his decision to make.

*Comey indicated that he would not give his approval to certify certain aspects of the program, so Card and Gonzales went to Ashcroft in search of a different answer.

He didn't approve or disapprove and I'm not that surprised on such an important matter. It went upstream to the top, Ashcroft who is also a confirmed cabinet official.

Seeing as how parts of the program had already been suspended at the time, I'm sure they could have waited for Ashcroft to be released from the hospital.

What I find when I read the article is a reporter using adjectives such as "unusal" to describe the meeting when we don't know that to be the case at all. That it is based on "unnamed sources" and that Comey has had every opportunity to voice his objection to the policy and has not, he kicked it upstairs when it was presented to him as the temporary acting AG, a prudent move in my opinion.

That's what journalists do...they sensationalize everything to pull the reader into the story. Journalists also do not have to reveal their sources, except in extreme cases. As for the rest of what you've said there.....that's certainly not what I got out of reading the article, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

 

[Caine]

Are you saying that the NSA surveillance program had nothing to do with national security?

Nope.
Im saying that, in general, anything can be made a national security issue and the ignorant public will accept it.

According to Cheney, it was a national security issue that you vote for Bush, instead of Kerry. Cause if you voted for Kerry, a terrorist attack would happen.

Idiots fell for it.

 

[Stace]

You tell 'em, Stace! I didn't know you had mentioned any "Daddy" remarks. :lol: Ain't that the truth.

Well, I hadn't until after you did :mrgreen: But hey, I thought it was a pretty good analogy.

I hear what you're saying, big Daddy , but I am going to have to disagree. Personally, if, objectively, this was about national security, do you genuinely think that Comey would have said no? I think it looks horrible that after being told no by the Acting AG that they would run to the AG, who was in the ICU no less, and get his permission. The rumor is that Ashcroft said no as well--that he would not overrule Comey (good for him), but that the White House changed something and then Comey gave the okay.

I totally agree with you here. But, you already knew that, right? :lol:

 

[aps]

Well, I hadn't until after you did :mrgreen: But hey, I thought it was a pretty good analogy.


I totally agree with you here. But, you already knew that, right? :lol:

It's so good to have you here on Debate Politics. :2bow:

 

[Stace]

It's so good to have you here on Debate Politics. :2bow:

Awww.....:3oops:

I'm glad to be here.

 

[oldreliable67]

The rumor is that Ashcroft said no as well--that he would not overrule Comey (good for him), but that the White House changed something and then Comey gave the okay.

If true, that should make everyone much more comfortable with the 'checks and balances that so many think have been done away with. If you recall, the program was set up, like FISA, to ensure that civil liberties are being protected. One of those provisions is for the AG to certify and sign off on certain minimization aspects of the program.

If the speculations in the NYT article and the subsequent article in Newsweek are correct, the DoJ insisted on certain enhancements to the minimization of risk to US persons aspects of the program. According to these articles, it was only after these enhancements were agreed to that Ashcroft or Comey (its still unclear which) eventually agreed to the certification. Further, subsequent to the certification (according to the Newsweek article), the DoJ conducted a secret audit of the program to ascertain compliance.

Certainly, the DoJ doesn't sound like a 'co-conspirator.

 

[Stinger]

Oh, we understand that it's about "national security". What we don't understand is why they're ACTING like teenagers that want to go to a party.

Which they weren't and shows a lack of understanding of the seriousness.

If he declined to sign on, they should have either accepted that or waited for Ashcroft to return to work.

Why?

Seeing as how parts of the program had already been suspended at the time,

Showing how sensitive the WH is about this matter and that they went to great lenghts to make sure they were within the law.

I'm sure they could have waited for Ashcroft to be released from the hospital.

Why? What's the big deal about getting Ashcroft who if like my mother after he gall bladder was removed couldn't wait to get out and back to business.

That's what journalists do...they sensationalize everything to pull the reader into the story. Journalists also do not have to reveal their sources, except in extreme cases.

Or else hide how weak their reporting acutally is.

 

[Stace]

Which they weren't and shows a lack of understanding of the seriousness.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Why?

Because Comey was there to make decisions in Ashcroft's stead, and if they didn't like his decision, too bad. That's not a good enough reason to go bother a man in the ICU, especially considering that he just ended up saying the same thing Comey did.

Showing how sensitive the WH is about this matter and that they went to great lenghts to make sure they were within the law.

I disagree with that, but that's another argument.

Why? What's the big deal about getting Ashcroft who if like my mother after he gall bladder was removed couldn't wait to get out and back to business.

Well, you already said that your mother wasn't in the ICU. Ashcroft was. Therefore, I highly doubt he was feeling so hot.

Or else hide how weak their reporting acutally is.

Have you ever taken a journalism course? I'm thinking no.

 

[tryreading]

Could have but not required.

Should have.

I have talked to you before, and found that you don't disagree with anything Bush does, except maybe the Mexican border mistake. If there's anything else you don't approve of, I haven't seen it. It is not healthy to trust him almost blindly, him or any President. His decisions have to be questioned, especially if they are questionable.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Unbelievable! The Bushies never cease to amaze me with their tactics. This is truly appalling.

Justice Deputy Resisted Parts of Spy Program
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, Dec. 31 - A top Justice Department official objected in 2004 to aspects of the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program and refused to sign on to its continued use amid concerns about its legality and oversight, according to officials with knowledge of the tense internal debate. The concerns appear to have played a part in the temporary suspension of the secret program.

The concerns prompted two of President Bush's most senior aides - Andrew H. Card Jr., his chief of staff, and Alberto R. Gonzales, then White House counsel and now attorney general - to make an emergency visit to a Washington hospital in March 2004 to discuss the program's future and try to win the needed approval from Attorney General John Ashcroft, who was hospitalized for gallbladder surgery, the officials said.

The unusual meeting was prompted because Mr. Ashcroft's top deputy, James B. Comey, who was acting as attorney general in his absence, had indicated he was unwilling to give his approval to certifying central aspects of the program, as required under the White House procedures set up to oversee it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/p...&en=ec5c0349b8ec6bc6&ei=5094&partner=homepage

What's your point Ashcroft is a Bush appointee and they're friends, I seriously doubt that Johnny boy would be taking the libs side on this matter.

 

[danarhea]

There is something missing in this thread. It is whether or not Ashcroft gave his blessing to the NSA spying without wiretaps. The answer may surprise you. I know the answer, but would like you to find it out for yourself. It isnt hard. Once you have the answer, then you will realize that the rest of this discussion is moot.

 

[aps]

Certainly, the DoJ doesn't sound like a 'co-conspirator.

When I said that, it related to why the person who leaked to the NYT did not go to the Justice Dept. The going to the ICU was one fact pattern. Based upon what I have read, the Justice Dept. okay'ed much of the NSA program. This is where "co-conspirator" comes in.

Because Comey was there to make decisions in Ashcroft's stead, and if they didn't like his decision, too bad.

Well, you already said that your mother wasn't in the ICU. Ashcroft was. Therefore, I highly doubt he was feeling so hot.

My sentiments exactly. If someone is serving as Acting AG, you DO NOT go to the AG just because you don't like what the Acting has done. I am no Ashcroft fan, but his saying he would not overrule Comey makes me very proud of him. I would do the same thing EVEN IF I believed otherwise. There is a reason Comey was appointed to Acting AG. The AG was not able to serve his position at that time.

Stace, don't worry. My mother was visiting my brother and had to undergo emergency surgery to have her gall bladder removed. She was in the hospital for several days after the surgery and felt horrible. She's only 68.

What's your point Ashcroft is a Bush appointee and they're friends, I seriously doubt that Johnny boy would be taking the libs side on this matter.

Trajan, come on. Why would you presume that Comey, a BUSH APPOINTEE would be "taking the libs side on this matter"? Also, so are you telling me that if someone doesn't agree with the Bushies, that it means that they are taking the libs's side? Why is this about partisan politics instead of Comey actually seeing that certain situations of the program were inappropriate? Sheesh.