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In desperation, the Bushies went to the hospital to seek permission

aps

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Unbelievable! The Bushies never cease to amaze me with their tactics. This is truly appalling.

Justice Deputy Resisted Parts of Spy Program
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, Dec. 31 - A top Justice Department official objected in 2004 to aspects of the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program and refused to sign on to its continued use amid concerns about its legality and oversight, according to officials with knowledge of the tense internal debate. The concerns appear to have played a part in the temporary suspension of the secret program.

The concerns prompted two of President Bush's most senior aides - Andrew H. Card Jr., his chief of staff, and Alberto R. Gonzales, then White House counsel and now attorney general - to make an emergency visit to a Washington hospital in March 2004 to discuss the program's future and try to win the needed approval from Attorney General John Ashcroft, who was hospitalized for gallbladder surgery, the officials said.

The unusual meeting was prompted because Mr. Ashcroft's top deputy, James B. Comey, who was acting as attorney general in his absence, had indicated he was unwilling to give his approval to certifying central aspects of the program, as required under the White House procedures set up to oversee it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/p...&en=ec5c0349b8ec6bc6&ei=5094&partner=homepage
 
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Stace

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How much lower could they possibly go?

Nice to see that they treat national security like a round of the limbo. :roll:
 

Conflict

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Stace said:
How much lower could they possibly go?

Nice to see that they treat national security like a round of the limbo. :roll:
My sentiment exactly.
 

Stinger

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Dr. Giggles

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If the president were to look through his bag in the McDonalds line to make sure the order was right, the lefties would be on him for it. What is appaling is how these guys seem to watch every single event and nuance for even a morsel of impropriety to sink their teeth into.
 

oldreliable67

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In addition to the quote supplied by aps, the article goes on to state:

"The concerns within the Justice Department appear to have led, at least in part, to the decision to suspend and revamp the program, officials said. The Justice Department then oversaw a secret audit of the surveillance program.
...
The audit examined a selection of cases to see how the security agency was running the program. Among other things, it looked at how agency officials went about determining that they had probable cause to believe that people in the United States, including American citizens, had sufficient ties to Al Qaeda to justify eavesdropping on their phone calls and e-mail messages without a court warrant. That review is not known to have found any instances of abuses."


Sounds to me like people are doing their jobs. Further, it sounds like when concerns have surfaced, those concerns have been addressed and the program has moved forward. Moreover, this article tends to substantiate the President's assertions that safeguards have been put in place and the program periodically reviewed.

So whats the problem?
 

Stace

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The problem is them going to see Ashcroft IN THE HOSPITAL (since so many people seem to have missed that part) because they didn't like the response they were getting from Comey.

How would YOU like to be bothered like that while YOU were in the hospital?
 

oldreliable67

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Stace said:
How would YOU like to be bothered like that while YOU were in the hospital?
C'mon, Stace, get serious. This is a matter of national security. If you have to go see someone on their deathbed, you darned well do it. And Ashcroft was only in for gall bladder surgery, for cryin' out loud. While we can only speculate on the immediate circumstances surrounding the visit (other than those described in the article), a likely scenario would have Card calling Ashcroft to get Ashcroft's take on the situation. Its entirely possible that Ashcroft, after hearing about his subordinates reluctance, said something to the effect, "Look, I'm just laying here flat on my back, doing nothing. Come on down here and lets talk this out and see if we can resolve it. It'll give me something to do."

Ok, thats total speculation. But, hey, having been in the hospital for a couple of week-long stays (for things much more serious than a gall bladder), I can attest to the willingness, nay, the desire to have something to do other than watch daytime soaps while waiting for my next session of physical therapy.

Besides, it probably made Ashcroft feel important, maybe even wanted and needed! ;)
 

Stace

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oldreliable67 said:
C'mon, Stace, get serious. This is a matter of national security. If you have to go see someone on their deathbed, you darned well do it. And Ashcroft was only in for gall bladder surgery, for cryin' out loud. While we can only speculate on the immediate circumstances surrounding the visit (other than those described in the article), a likely scenario would have Card calling Ashcroft to get Ashcroft's take on the situation. Its entirely possible that Ashcroft, after hearing about his subordinates reluctance, said something to the effect, "Look, I'm just laying here flat on my back, doing nothing. Come on down here and lets talk this out and see if we can resolve it. It'll give me something to do."

Ok, thats total speculation. But, hey, having been in the hospital for a couple of week-long stays (for things much more serious than a gall bladder), I can attest to the willingness, nay, the desire to have something to do other than watch daytime soaps while waiting for my next session of physical therapy.

Besides, it probably made Ashcroft feel important, maybe even wanted and needed! ;)
And all of that is pure speculation on your part.

Me personally, if I were in the hospital, regardless of the reason, the last thing I'd want to discuss is business. I'm sure there are plenty of people that would second that.
 

cnredd

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Stace said:
And all of that is pure speculation on your part.

Me personally, if I were in the hospital, regardless of the reason, the last thing I'd want to discuss is business. I'm sure there are plenty of people that would second that.
And I'm sure you have proof that Ashcroft feels the same as you...

ring!
Bush: Hi Ashy...Mind if we stop by and talk about this spy crap?...
Ashcroft: Sure thing...you can have my dinner...this food sucks!...
Bush: We'll see ya tomorrow...
click.

:shrug:

In other news....

Today President Bush jumped into the middle of the street to grab an old lady in the way of an oncoming truck...

Senators Reid, Kerry & Schumer have called for an investigation to this illegal jaywalking...
 

Stace

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cnredd said:
And I'm sure you have proof that Ashcroft feels the same as you...

ring!
Bush: Hi Ashy...Mind if we stop by and talk about this spy crap?...
Ashcroft: Sure thing...you can have my dinner...this food sucks!...
Bush: We'll see ya tomorrow...
click.

:shrug:

In other news....

Today President Bush jumped into the middle of the street to grab an old lady in the way of an oncoming truck...

Senators Reid, Kerry & Schumer have called for an investigation to this illegal jaywalking...
Oh, you're funny, cnredd, REAL funny.

I didn't say Ashcroft views it the way I do. But we don't know for sure if he did or didn't in this case, now, do we? That's all I was sayin'.
 

cnredd

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Stace said:
Oh, you're funny, cnredd, REAL funny.

I didn't say Ashcroft views it the way I do. But we don't know for sure if he did or didn't in this case, now, do we? That's all I was sayin'.
No...THIS is what you're sayin'...

Stace said:
The problem is them going to see Ashcroft IN THE HOSPITAL (since so many people seem to have missed that part) because they didn't like the response they were getting from Comey.

How would YOU like to be bothered like that while YOU were in the hospital?
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=186040&postcount=7

I love the continued stategy of some members here who start threads...

Thread starter: Look at this mountain!!!!!!...
Another member: It looks like a molehill...
Thread starter: Well, we don't know if it's a mountain or a molehill...
:roll:
 

oldreliable67

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Stace said:
And all of that is pure speculation on your part.
Yep, it is. And if you read carefully, you'll find where I said it was speculation on my part. Actually, I was just havin' a little fun with it. Except for the part about being in the hospital wishing for something to do besides wait for physical therapy, that is. That wasn't fun. :(
 

Stace

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cnredd said:
No...THIS is what you're sayin'...



http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=186040&postcount=7

I love the continued stategy of some members here who start threads...

Thread starter: Look at this mountain!!!!!!...
Another member: It looks like a molehill...
Thread starter: Well, we don't know if it's a mountain or a molehill...
:roll:
I didn't start this thread. So there. :2razz:

That being said, perhaps you missed the post where I said:

Stace said:
Me personally, if I were in the hospital, regardless of the reason, the last thing I'd want to discuss is business.
I don't know what Ashcroft thought. I just know that I personally wouldn't want to be bothered like that, especially when the reason was because someone didn't like what the person standing in for me was saying.
 

aps

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There was a reason that Comey was Acting Attorney General at that time--because Ashcroft was unable to do his job at that time. What Card and Gonzales did was in desperation of getting their plan approved. It's funny how people will come up with excuses for this kind of behavior. In fact, I find it hilarious (and, of course, accord no probative value to the excuses of why this kind of behavior was appropriate). It reminds me of my niece and nephew. When my brother-in-law tells them no when they ask for something, they go see my sister since she is much more likely to say yes. This kind of behavior by adults is pretty pathetic.

:2funny:
 

oldreliable67

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aps said:
There was a reason that Comey was Acting Attorney General at that time--because Ashcroft was unable to do his job at that time.
No, not necessarily. Since we're all, including you, continuing to speculate, lets go a little further. It is standard procedure when any govt official (of a sufficient rank) is at risk, especially in a hospital where the official may or may not be sedated at some unknown point(s) in time, for his/her deputy to act in their place.

It is entirely possible and plausible that Ashcroft was fully functional and able to discharge his duties at the time of the meeting. Or, maybe he was so doped up, Card and Gonzales just put some papers in front of him and told they were a get-well card, so sign'em. You know these Bushies, there is nothing to which they won't resort to get their way.
 

Stace

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oldreliable67 said:
Or, maybe he was so doped up, Card and Gonzales just put some papers in front of him and told they were a get-well card, so sign'em. You know these Bushies, there is nothing to which they won't resort to get their way.
Why would Ashcroft sign his own get-well card? :lol:
 
H

hipsterdufus

aps said:
Unbelievable! The Bushies never cease to amaze me with their tactics. This is truly appalling.

Justice Deputy Resisted Parts of Spy Program
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, Dec. 31 - A top Justice Department official objected in 2004 to aspects of the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program and refused to sign on to its continued use amid concerns about its legality and oversight, according to officials with knowledge of the tense internal debate. The concerns appear to have played a part in the temporary suspension of the secret program.

The concerns prompted two of President Bush's most senior aides - Andrew H. Card Jr., his chief of staff, and Alberto R. Gonzales, then White House counsel and now attorney general - to make an emergency visit to a Washington hospital in March 2004 to discuss the program's future and try to win the needed approval from Attorney General John Ashcroft, who was hospitalized for gallbladder surgery, the officials said.

The unusual meeting was prompted because Mr. Ashcroft's top deputy, James B. Comey, who was acting as attorney general in his absence, had indicated he was unwilling to give his approval to certifying central aspects of the program, as required under the White House procedures set up to oversee it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/p...&en=ec5c0349b8ec6bc6&ei=5094&partner=homepage
I miss Ashcroft:roll: Maybe Comey is the whistleblower? Which gets me to the question, if the parties that leaked the NSA wiretapping to the NYT should be covered under the whisteblowers protection act? It seems to me that they should.

Federal employees benefit from the Whistleblower Protection Act (5 U.S.C. § 1221(e)), and the No Fear Act (which made individual agencies directly responsible for the economic sanctions of unlawful retaliation). The Military Whistleblower Protection Act (10 U.S.C. § 1034), protects the right of members of the armed services to communicate with any member of Congress (even if copies of the communication are sent to others).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Whistleblower_law
 

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cnredd said:
In other news....

Today President Bush jumped into the middle of the street to grab an old lady in the way of an oncoming truck...

Senators Reid, Kerry & Schumer have called for an investigation to this illegal jaywalking...
DAYUM STRAIGHT!

They should investigate him. He is the President, he should know the law.
 

oldreliable67

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Stace said:
Why would Ashcroft sign his own get-well card? :lol:
Most people wouldn't, but these Bushies had Ashcroft so doped up, he never saw any thing strange about it at all! :lol:
 

tryreading

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Stinger said:
So they were once again making sure, double and triple checking, they were on proper legal grounds, why is that appalling?
I agree with Colon Powell, who said on Sunday that court orders could have been acquired even after the particular surveillances were ordered. He was surprised they weren't.
 

oldreliable67

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tryreading said:
I agree with Colon Powell, who said on Sunday that court orders could have been acquired even after the particular surveillances were ordered. He was surprised they weren't.
"Colon" Powell? I know that you mean Colin Powell and I suspect that you know it as well, but coming as it does in this thread about hospitals,gall bladders, etc., that typo just strikes me as sorta funny. :lol:
 

Stinger

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Stace said:
The problem is them going to see Ashcroft IN THE HOSPITAL (since so many people seem to have missed that part) because they didn't like the response they were getting from Comey.

How would YOU like to be bothered like that while YOU were in the hospital?
Are you serious?
 

Stinger

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tryreading said:
I agree with Colon Powell, who said on Sunday that court orders could have been acquired even after the particular surveillances were ordered. He was surprised they weren't.
Could have but not required.
 

aps

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Stinger said:
Are you serious?
I believe that Ashcroft was in the ICU (intensive care unit) at the time of the visit. This was overheard in the ICU:

Daddy, the Acting Daddy told us we couldn't do what we wanted to do. The White House will not accept that as our answer. Will you give us permission to do whatever we want? Please, Daddy? Pretty please with sugar on top?

;)
 
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