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In denial: Local paper examines illegal immigration

Dittohead not!

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Here is the first part of an analysis of illegal immigration from the local level. The Fresno Bee is a major paper in the San Joaquin Valley, which is ground zero (or one of the ground zeros at any rate) for illegal immigration.

There are a lot of solutions to illegal immigration. Most of them are simplistic and unworkable. There are no easy answers.

Illegal immigrants flock to Valley despite risks



Highlights:

Yrene is a prime example of how the Valley's don't-ask, don't-tell policy allows farmers to keep their businesses humming. Yrene's employer knows she's here illegally, but he says his company depends on hard-working people like her to get the job done. Yrene, in turn, depends on her job to pay the medical bills for her eldest daughter, who was born with one kidney and has scoliosis, a curvature of the spine. She doesn't receive government aid.


The San Joaquin Valley is an especially popular destination because of its low cost of living and abundant agriculture jobs, experts say. One estimate by the Urban Institute found that more than 200,000 illegal immigrants were in the Valley in 2004 — although a large number of seasonal workers weren't counted. The vast majority were from Mexico.


Some agriculture industry leaders say up to 90% of farmworkers in the Valley are illegal immigrants.

So, are we going to deport 90% of our agricultural workers? Who will replace them? Agriculture is by far the biggest part of the economy in this area.

The worst part isn't the heat — it's the fuzz.

Peach hairs fill the air, coating faces and hands and irritating throats and lungs.

"Right now I can feel all the little hairs around my neck," farmworker Juan Zamora said as he thinned the latest of a dozen trees he's worked on this morning. "But the more you scratch, the more it itches."

I added that part because I can relate: I spent part of a summer picking peaches in 1960, back when American citizens actually went to the fields to work.
 

MKULTRABOY

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I remember being in mexico for a service trip in the middle of a mexican 'ghetto' essentially, likely one of the nicer ones as it was in north texas. I speak spanish well enough to communicate fluently on a colloquial level, I snuck away several times from the kids in the group and the compound we were in to hang out with the local kids near my age. I bought them some beer (Modelo Especial :mrgeen: ). They wanted to know if I could get them to america somehow, they said the cost of getting a passport, visa, and immigrating legally to work was to great for the family to really afford. Their houses are not unlike houses of the lower class in the rural US (a few places where I had visited, such as SW VA). Eerily similar in alot of ways. On the street old men talked to me about how many states they had been working in, Indiana, MO, Texas, seemingly everywhere in the US for all their lives. LAter I would convince a few friends to go walking in the ghetto with me at night, I convinced them they wouldn't get robbed. We associated with lots of kids our age who spoke to us in a little broken english, I translated. The sense of community is really different, everyone knows everyone and grows up with everyone and the streets are a place to hang out. People waved and said "Hola Gringos!" etc. A great experience. illegals are a labor force that deserve some form of rights to legitimize their work in the United States. There is likely a good deal of interest in keeping them illegal.
 

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Here is the first part of an analysis of illegal immigration from the local level. The Fresno Bee is a major paper in the San Joaquin Valley, which is ground zero (or one of the ground zeros at any rate) for illegal immigration.

There are a lot of solutions to illegal immigration. Most of them are simplistic and unworkable.

What's unworkable about fining employers who intentionally hire illegals? What's unworkable about deporting illegals who are caught? There's nothing unworkable about those solutions. Perhaps they're politically uncomfortable, but certainly not simplistic and unworkable.

So, are we going to deport 90% of our agricultural workers? Who will replace them? Agriculture is by far the biggest part of the economy in this area.

Your logical would mean that we'd still have slaves pickin' cotton.

I spent part of a summer picking peaches in 1960, back when American citizens actually went to the fields to work.

You answered your own question: Who will replace them?
 

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. illegals are a labor force that deserve some form of rights to legitimize their work in the United States. There is likely a good deal of interest in keeping them illegal.

It is known as the migrant worker program (agriculture type jobs) and the guest worker program. There are ways to come into the US legally to work. Not having the funds to do so is not an excuse to break US laws and enter illegally. Especially when the country the person is a citizen of has toughter laws than the US in regards to entering for work or immigration.

Guestworker Programs, Employment & Training Administration (ETA) - U.S. Department of Labor

Not sure where you think their is a good deal of interest in keeping them illegal? Can you provide a source for this point.
 

MKULTRABOY

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It is known as the migrant worker program (agriculture type jobs) and the guest worker program. There are ways to come into the US legally to work. Not having the funds to do so is not an excuse to break US laws and enter illegally. Especially when the country the person is a citizen of has toughter laws than the US in regards to entering for work or immigration.

Guestworker Programs, Employment & Training Administration (ETA) - U.S. Department of Labor

Not sure where you think their is a good deal of interest in keeping them illegal? Can you provide a source for this point.

Wow I have this craaaaaazy gut feeling coming from sooooomewhere that it isn't working... :roll:

Your logical would mean that we'd still have slaves pickin' cotton.

Your logical probably isn't at all. I don't see how your analogy applies in any way.

Also, if there were an interest in keeping them illegal it'd be the same type of 'interests' that have kept public healthcare from us for a century (for profit), and kept marijuana illegal for profit. Hint: they don't like daylight.
 
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mike2810

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So SE, can't provide a source to show that the majority wants to keep "them illegals illegal". I have a feeling that it may be easier to cross illegally than to come in legally. that just shows our border security doesn't work. Wonder how many illegals tried to enter under the temp visa or did they just jump the fence?
 

Dittohead not!

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What's unworkable about fining employers who intentionally hire illegals?

Nothing, so long as there is a reliable way of documenting who is legal and who is not, and as long as there is a way to replace the illegals. 90% of the agricultural workforce is not going to be easy to replace. It could be done, of course, but there has to be a plan in place, and it can't happen overnight.

What's unworkable about deporting illegals who are caught?

Nothing wrong with that, either. How are we going to catch and deport 10 or 20 million (or however many you believe there are) illegals?

There's nothing unworkable about those solutions. Perhaps they're politically uncomfortable, but certainly not simplistic and unworkable.

They are only politically uncomfortable because the government is not serious about ending illegal immigration. As for simplistic, yes, they certainly lack details, as I've pointed out. Unworkable? Not necessarily, if we do it right.


Your logical would mean that we'd still have slaves pickin' cotton.

I'm not sure I follow that one.



You answered your own question: Who will replace them?

Me? No, not me. I'm not 18 like I was in 1960, for one thing. Will Americans work in the fields like we did fifty years ago? I wonder. Maybe if they are motivated enough, but how is that going to happen?

The guestworker program is an interesting point. I don't know why growers and other employers aren't using that one. Can anyone answer that question?
 

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Your logical probably isn't at all. I don't see how your analogy applies in any way.

Thanks for the correction, SE. However, apparently you can't jump beyond the typo to see the most obvious analogy I drew. In fact, it's darned near perfect. ;-)
 

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Nothing, so long as there is a reliable way of documenting who is legal and who is not, and as long as there is a way to replace the illegals. 90% of the agricultural workforce is not going to be easy to replace. It could be done, of course, but there has to be a plan in place, and it can't happen overnight. Nothing wrong with that, either. How are we going to catch and deport 10 or 20 million (or however many you believe there are) illegals?

We wouldn't have to catch a one. If they can't get jobs, they'll go home.

They are only politically uncomfortable because the government is not serious about ending illegal immigration.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more.

I'm not sure I follow that one.

What?? You're the second poster who didn't follow it; but I was thinkin' the first one was in his cups. Okay, so:

You said:
So, are we going to deport 90% of our agricultural workers? Who will replace them? Agriculture is by far the biggest part of the economy in this area.

Then I said:
Your logic would mean we'd still have slaves pickin' cotton.

'Cept I typo'ed logic as logical. Get it now?

Me? No, not me. I'm not 18 like I was in 1960, for one thing. Will Americans work in the fields like we did fifty years ago? I wonder. Maybe if they are motivated enough, but how is that going to happen?

No, my friend, wasn't talking about you per se. My point was that if you were willing to work in the fields when you were younger, others will as well. Now, farmers won't be able to pay our young people the pittance they now pay illegals, and our tomatos are likely to cost more, but, them's the breaks.
 

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So SE, can't provide a source to show that the majority wants to keep "them illegals illegal". I have a feeling that it may be easier to cross illegally than to come in legally. that just shows our border security doesn't work. Wonder how many illegals tried to enter under the temp visa or did they just jump the fence?

It's easier to cross illegally, likely impossible to cross otherwise for many. Ask a mexican. O wait, i did.
Sources to prove the black market involves itself in illegalising marijuana popped up, and red scares to keep healthcare private over the past century are well known. SB1070 was already shown to be directly written by private prison contractors exploiting people's sentiments. But hey, america can continue to profit from illegal labor until something is done about it. Funny that, whay hasn't the government anywhere done anything about illegal immigration? And why has it been an issue used for shallow populist political gain so far by anyone who has tried. Funny that.

So, are we going to deport 90% of our agricultural workers? Who will replace them? Agriculture is by far the biggest part of the economy in this area.
"Your logical would mean that we'd still have slaves pickin' cotton."

Im sorry, without even getting to the essence of the issue, slaves are involuntary labor, illegals are not. /defeated ;p
 

MKULTRABOY

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I remember being in mexico for a service trip in the middle of a mexican 'ghetto' essentially, likely one of the nicer ones as it was in north texas.

Edit: Northern Mexico on the texas border.
 

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We wouldn't have to catch a one. If they can't get jobs, they'll go home.

True. Along with that, we need to make sure that they need to show legal status in order to get government services as well. First, however, there needs to be a national ID card that can't easily be counterfeited. Try proposing that and listen to the references to Orwell.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more.



What?? You're the second poster who didn't follow it; but I was thinkin' the first one was in his cups. Okay, so:

You said:

Then I said:

'Cept I typo'ed logic as logical. Get it now?

OK, now it makes sense. If we don't do something about illegals working for substandard wages, it is much like keeping the slaves picking cotton. I agree, actually. We need to do something about illegals and their substandard wages. The problem is, we can't just abruptly end illigal immigration without preparing for the consequences, one of which would be a lack of labor in the fields.

No, my friend, wasn't talking about you per se. My point was that if you were willing to work in the fields when you were younger, others will as well. Now, farmers won't be able to pay our young people the pittance they now pay illegals, and our tomatos are likely to cost more, but, them's the breaks.

I wonder just how willing today's youth would be to do field work. Maybe. There would have to be some way to motivate them, and pay is one. Workers used to be able to make quite a lot more than minimum doing piece work.
 

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We wouldn't have to catch a one. If they can't get jobs, they'll go home.

True. Along with that, we need to make sure that they need to show legal status in order to get government services as well. First, however, there needs to be a national ID card that can't easily be counterfeited. Try proposing that and listen to the references to Orwell.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more.



What?? You're the second poster who didn't follow it; but I was thinkin' the first one was in his cups. Okay, so:

You said:

Then I said:

'Cept I typo'ed logic as logical. Get it now?

OK, now it makes sense. If we don't do something about illegals working for substandard wages, it is much like keeping the slaves picking cotton. I agree, actually. We need to do something about illegals and their substandard wages. The problem is, we can't just abruptly end illigal immigration without preparing for the consequences, one of which would be a lack of labor in the fields.



I wonder just how willing today's youth would be to do field work. Maybe. There would have to be some way to motivate them, and pay is one. Workers used to be able to make quite a lot more than minimum doing piece work.
yes they did make more than minimum and the employeer made money too without raising prices, what has changed?
 

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Today's article: E-Verify, a way to determine legal status

There is a way to verify legal status online, called "E-Verify", but hardly anyone uses it.

Today's article about illegal immigration

Businesses have a free, simple way to check that their new hires are legal. Although far from perfect, it could reduce the lure of employment that draws illegal immigrants, experts say.

But most employers who depend on illegal workers -- including the vast majority of agriculture businesses in the Central Valley -- won't use it.

And Congress, under pressure from business leaders, refuses to make them -- despite a clear voter mandate to stop illegal immigration.


Nationally, about 3.3% of the nation's 7 million employers use E-Verify -- and some 1,100 employers enroll every week. Among agriculture companies, 2.2% use E-Verify, according to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which oversees the program.



E-Verify isn't perfect. Perhaps the biggest problem is that it is better at detecting made-up Social Security numbers than at recognizing those stolen from legal residents.

A report released late last year by an independent research firm estimated that 54% of illegal immigrants who were screened by E-Verify were misidentified as legal workers.

Obviously, E-Verify is not a perfect solution, but it could be a start. The problem is, Congress won't enact a law requiring it, so a business that uses it is at a disadvantage compared to the competition due to higher labor costs.
 

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Parte tres- tread lightly with employers

*
Cracking down on illegal immigration can backfire


Aggressive crackdowns can backfire if they hurt business. A sweep of Midwestern meatpacking plants in the late 1990s, for example, prompted outrage from business and civic leaders. Immigration officials have learned to tread lightly.


Many experts say aggressively cracking down on employers will rid the nation of illegal immigrants. Because the vast majority of them come here to work, America would be a much less appealing destination without job opportunities.

But advocates for stricter enforcement say there is little political appetite to sever the co-dependent relationship between businesses and illegal immigrants.

Which has been said on this forum many times in our threads about illegal immigration.

And aggressive enforcement, agents have learned, can backfire.

Really? How so? Well, as a result of aggressive crackdown on the meat packing industry....

"All hell broke loose," said Mark Reed, a former top INS official who was in charge of the crackdown, dubbed Operation Vanguard. "All of a sudden, these communities that wanted these people out of there realized that they needed them. They didn't realize that the kids who played on their soccer teams and the people they went to church with were going to go. They didn't realize that they were the center of their economy."


There is a "co dependent relationship" between business and illegal immigration. Since business supports political campaigns, there is a co dependent relationship there, too. No wonder illegal immigration has been going on for decades with no effective government action.
 

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yes they did make more than minimum and the employeer made money too without raising prices, what has changed?

What changed was the rise of superstores like Wal-Mart (not just Wal-Mart, but like them) driving the per unit price down so low for certain foods that it's nearly impossible to profit on them for the farmers (the wholesalers and retailers are taking all the profits on that). Further, the pressure from fast food chains have driven down the per unit price of potatoes, beef, lettuce, et. al. that it's now nearly all factory farmed.
 

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What changed was the rise of superstores like Wal-Mart (not just Wal-Mart, but like them) driving the per unit price down so low for certain foods that it's nearly impossible to profit on them for the farmers (the wholesalers and retailers are taking all the profits on that). Further, the pressure from fast food chains have driven down the per unit price of potatoes, beef, lettuce, et. al. that it's now nearly all factory farmed.
what caused that? wasn't it in 1972 when nixon opened up trade with china?
 

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Todays article: effect on local and state taxes

Illegal immigration burdens local, state government

Hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrant workers keep the Central Valley's economy humming — at a price.

Even though they help businesses by providing cheap labor and lower the costs of goods and services, they are a burden on local governments because they pay little in taxes, economists say. Their low wages, not their work ethic, are to blame.

That means the rest of us pay higher taxes or must get by with fewer government services to keep illegal immigrants here.

By not cracking down on illegal immigration, the federal government is in effect mandating a taxpayer subsidy, paid for by state and local taxes, to businesses that hire illegals.
 

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Re: Todays article: effect on local and state taxes

Of course, then you have the problem where illegal immigrants are given benefits and provlidges that legal residents and immigrants do not have.

Illegal immigrants can qualify for in-state college tuition, court rules - Los Angeles Times

I have seriously been thinking that if I ever return to California (hell will likely freeze over first), I will simply say that I am an illegal if I ever go to college.

I think that all illegal immigrants should simply be given a hearing to see if they have a legitimate cause for staying in the country, then deported if they do not. We need to stop this illegal flood before we get crushed in the tidal wave.
 

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illegals are a labor force that deserve some form of rights to legitimize their work in the United States.

No. Illegals are breaking the law, and they should be punished accordingly. They take jobs away from their own countrymen who followed the rules and came here legally. If you break the law, you should be held accountable.
 

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Could we talk about granting illegal immigrants amnesty instead? I think the real issue begins with the millions of people we have allowed to come and stay here while taking away jobs and other rights from legal citizens and legal immigrants who were granted access to live here. A few months ago there was talk of granting some of the 12 million illegal immigrants amnesty after they had already committed the crime. Now, there is talk that Obama’s administration is trying to work out a law or a legislation that would not take under consideration a vote and would allow the people who are already here to become LEGAL citizens. Do any of you think this would be a negative or a positive effect on the economy? Because, I for once think this is an awful idea to pursue. The illegals would gain rights to look for normal jobs that pay normal wages. I think that would severely mess up the unemployment rate which has stayed at a high of 9.7 for the past couple months. I have researched many other negative effects of granting amnesty to the illegal immigrants but I was wondering if anyone else was contemplating this issue ?
 

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Could we talk about granting illegal immigrants amnesty instead? I think the real issue begins with the millions of people we have allowed to come and stay here while taking away jobs and other rights from legal citizens and legal immigrants who were granted access to live here. A few months ago there was talk of granting some of the 12 million illegal immigrants amnesty after they had already committed the crime. Now, there is talk that Obama’s administration is trying to work out a law or a legislation that would not take under consideration a vote and would allow the people who are already here to become LEGAL citizens. Do any of you think this would be a negative or a positive effect on the economy? Because, I for once think this is an awful idea to pursue. The illegals would gain rights to look for normal jobs that pay normal wages. I think that would severely mess up the unemployment rate which has stayed at a high of 9.7 for the past couple months. I have researched many other negative effects of granting amnesty to the illegal immigrants but I was wondering if anyone else was contemplating this issue ?

For one, they would not become legal citizens. They would become Resident Aliens. If they want to become citizens, that is yet another step they would have to take afterwards.

Personally, I could not care less what this does for the economy. We have laws and enforce them for other reasons. I care about the effect in border areas, and how ilegals are getting rights and benefits that legal residents and citizens do not have.

If you want to emmigrate here, fine. Do it legally. And while I have no problem with a limited amnesty program, the monster blanket amnesties that are being talked about now go way over what should be considered.

Back in 1986, President Reagan signed into law the Immigration Reform and Control Act. And under this act, 3 million illegal immigrants became legal. However, millions more never even bothered to apply for the amnesty.

To me, people who want an amnesty must work for it, just as hard as if they emmigrated here legally. This is both a deterrent, and also to make sure that they are serious about wanting to become residents then citizens.

And by and large, the numbers that would be given amnesty will have little to no effect on unemployment rates. After all, most of the jobs done are ones that "Real Americans" would never lower themselves to do. How many of those currently unemployed would go get a job at a poultry house? Or working 10+ hours a day picking crops? Or in a meat packing plant butchering beef and pork? How many would get fake credentials so they could work in the kitchen at a local fast food resteraunt, or work all night as a janitor?
 

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Here is the first part of an analysis of illegal immigration from the local level. The Fresno Bee is a major paper in the San Joaquin Valley, which is ground zero (or one of the ground zeros at any rate) for illegal immigration.

There are a lot of solutions to illegal immigration. Most of them are simplistic and unworkable. There are no easy answers.

Illegal immigrants flock to Valley despite risks



Highlights:









So, are we going to deport 90% of our agricultural workers? Who will replace them? Agriculture is by far the biggest part of the economy in this area.



I added that part because I can relate: I spent part of a summer picking peaches in 1960, back when American citizens actually went to the fields to work.

With 10% unemployment, seems we got plenty of room for NEW agricultural workers.
 

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For one, they would not become legal citizens. They would become Resident Aliens. If they want to become citizens, that is yet another step they would have to take afterwards.

Personally, I could not care less what this does for the economy. We have laws and enforce them for other reasons. I care about the effect in border areas, and how ilegals are getting rights and benefits that legal residents and citizens do not have.

If you want to emmigrate here, fine. Do it legally. And while I have no problem with a limited amnesty program, the monster blanket amnesties that are being talked about now go way over what should be considered.

Back in 1986, President Reagan signed into law the Immigration Reform and Control Act. And under this act, 3 million illegal immigrants became legal. However, millions more never even bothered to apply for the amnesty.

To me, people who want an amnesty must work for it, just as hard as if they emmigrated here legally. This is both a deterrent, and also to make sure that they are serious about wanting to become residents then citizens.

And by and large, the numbers that would be given amnesty will have little to no effect on unemployment rates. After all, most of the jobs done are ones that "Real Americans" would never lower themselves to do. How many of those currently unemployed would go get a job at a poultry house? Or working 10+ hours a day picking crops? Or in a meat packing plant butchering beef and pork? How many would get fake credentials so they could work in the kitchen at a local fast food resteraunt, or work all night as a janitor?

1. So you believe it’s fair for people who “hopped the border” or overstayed their visas to have the same rights as people, such as my parents, who worked hard and spent a lot of money to get their green cards to come here to have the same rights? I think such a move would anger thousands of people in this country. Second, you do not care about the economy? If the citizens were granted a vote in this matter don’t you think it would be important for everyone to be aware of the effects of granting amnesty to 12 million illegal immigrants. Speaking of the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act, you mentioned how 3 million illegal immigrants became legal. Well, did you know that these immigrants brought over 142,000 dependants. If we could make an estimate, imagine that number times 4? The population of this country would immediately increase, taking away jobs from people who are here legally. The amnesty President Regan granted also created a lot of trouble. People went to dangerous ways to try to sneak into the country to be a part of this amnesty. If the whole world knew that our country was trying to bring about this amnesty there would be a lot of commotion, and the number of illegals would increase significantly. You also mention that the unemployment rate would not change because 12 million is not a large number compared to the population of America. Think about this: What would employers have to do if all of a sudden the people they paid to do miserable work got taken away, would these employers do the job themselves? No. They would make the jobs more desirable, possibly by raising the wages.
 

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Back in 1986, President Reagan signed into law the Immigration Reform and Control Act. And under this act, 3 million illegal immigrants became legal. However, millions more never even bothered to apply for the amnesty.

Yes, and millions more came across the border when the word got around that they could get amnesty.

We don't have to speculate on what will happen if we extend amnesty to illegals. We did it once, and saw the results. The last thing we need to do is pass another amnesty bill.
 
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