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If you are questioning me providing links and sources, I have loads of them.
@Lursa
No, what america has is the best medical expertise and equipment in the world. What they also have is one of the worst health care system in the world where a person can beggar his whole family for a cure.
Yes you have the beds and due to the stupidity of the american people and the failure of your government you also have all those beds filled to capacity. But your health system does not seve the greater number. They serve the wealthy and throw table scraps at the poor.
It would soun good to you but then you have made it clear that you do not understand how your health system actually works.
And no I am an atheist and an appeal to your imaginary friend is more an annoyance than anything else.
Documents I jhave already given a link to showed you that being human is part of the legal status of the unborn .
How amusing, you have heard that up to a certain point the fetus is not specifically human. So what is it until then?
No one questions they are alive. As I said the weaknesss of your position is that you think a potential imaginary life is equal to an actual living woman. Or that she has no more worth than a something you now say comes from a non human source.
No, what america has is the best medical expertise and equipment in the world. What they also have is one of the worst health care system in the world where a person can beggar his whole family for a cure.
Yes you have the beds and due to the stupidity of the american people and the failure of your government you also have all those beds filled to capacity. But your health system does not seve the greater number. They serve the wealthy and throw table scraps at the poor.
It would soun good to you but then you have made it clear that you do not understand how your health system actually works.
And no I am an atheist and an appeal to your imaginary friend is more an annoyance than anything else.
Sure, here you go:
The direct answer is that primate society - troops, bands, etc. predate human society - perforce, because our primate cousins were here first. & a good thing, because primate behavior underlies a lot of human interactions.
For details on the theory, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_society - specially Sociobiological theories.
No, I have no conundrum. You however who have a ideology that is anti abortion while being pro abortion do have a conundrum.You distort my statements and respond to the straw men you create.
If the life you seek to destroy is human and the rights you cite as justification are uniquely human, you seem to have constructed for yourself a conundrum.
It sounds a great deal like Animal Farm where all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Covid is not an equal opportunity disease. Just because it is less in your place does not make it less in others. America has been leading thew world in its incompetence to save lives and your only concern is your own neighborhood.In Indiana, we NEVER ran out of beds to care for the sick. At this moment, there is an excess beds to patients. 30% of the ICU beds are unused at this moment.
Compared to the UK, the US has about 5 times as many ICU beds per citizen. In the UK care costs less is slower and people have died waiting for care.
I suppose you get what you pay for.
I heard that in other areas they of the US beds ran short. Medicine in the US is run from the state level. However, the FEDS came to the rescue in various places.
Here in Indiana, we have the Healthy Indiana Plan (HIP) and, if a person has no insurance, they get the care provided at the cost of the state.
You claimed knowledge of the after life. If you have none, then your claim of having knowledge would have been a lie.
I was affording you the benefit of the doubt.
I asked for you to cite a source. You have failed to do so.
Being human is well defined. It is your example here of how to muddy the water is where any confusion is created. I have no doubt you were having dinner with a bunch of anti abortionists to be so misinformed.
Humans are human from conception. There is no time when it can be said it is not human or even just not specifically human.
Where you are mistaken is in thinking that a human is a human is an equal. It's not, it is a tautology.
However the same cannot be said for the concept of rights. In the case of whether to abort or not is an argument that the right of the woman and the right of the unborn are not equal.
As to your point of the woman is under equipped to decide. That raises the question of who is. And if we are to believe your scenario then the answer would have to be no one could possibly understand what is a human. So the only person it makes sense to give the decision to would be the person effected, ie. the pregnant woman.
Yep. It's a human. And a dead one after the abortion.....or get your money backAt the end of your post, I notice that you changed from the category "human" to the category "person".
Human is more of a biological term while person is more of a legal one. I support the legal authorization of women to choose to abort in our society.
However denying the humanity of the separate life that is ended when the abortion occurs does not seem like a good thing to do.
It is possible to support the legal right to abort and to acknowledge that the other life being ended, not the woman who is choosing, is also human.
At the end of your post, I notice that you changed from the category "human" to the category "person".
Human is more of a biological term while person is more of a legal one. I support the legal authorization of women to choose to abort in our society.
However denying the humanity of the separate life that is ended when the abortion occurs does not seem like a good thing to do.
It is possible to support the legal right to abort and to acknowledge that the other life being ended, not the woman who is choosing, is also human.
No, I have no conundrum. You however who have a ideology that is anti abortion while being pro abortion do have a conundrum.
Animal farm was correct and pointed out a very real fact about reality. that no matter how much we believe in ideology, it is never the same as reality.
Covid is not an equal opportunity disease. Just because it is less in your place does not make it less in others. America has been leading thew world in its incompetence to save lives and your only concern is your own neighborhood.
Far more have died in america. In america you get what you cannot afford.
I have made no claim about the after life.
And no, you were not affording me anything other than a twisting of my words.
Do you know what "cite a source" means? It means provide proof of your claims. Notably, a link to proof.I touched on about ten different points.
Which point left you confused?
I often wonder, whether on this topic or another, when someone has stated their views and won't accept ANYONE ELSE'S and keeps flooding a thread even after the horse has been flogged, that there might be a personal reason?Do you know what "cite a source" means? It means provide proof of your claims. Notably, a link to proof.
If that were true. And I am not doubting it. Then why cannot such equality also be extended to women who are pregnant.In the US ALL patients suffering were cared for with equal treatment. NOBODY needing care for Covid was turned away.
What are you talking about?
In an earlier post you indicated certainty about some aspect of the afterlife.
The US has the "highest rate of maternal mortality in the industrialized world." In the United States, the maternal death rate averaged 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births during the years 1979–1986, but then rose rapidly to 14 per 100,000 in 2000 and 17.8 per 100,000 in 2009.
Put simply, for black women far more than for white women, giving birth can amount to a death sentence. African American women are three to four times more likely to die during or after delivery than are white women. According to the World Health Organization, their odds of surviving childbirth are comparable to those of women in countries such as Mexico and Uzbekistan, where significant proportions of the population live in poverty.
Irving’s friend Raegan McDonald-Mosley, chief medical director for Planned Parenthood Federation of America, told ProPublica, “You can’t educate your way out of this problem. You can’t health-care-access your way out of this problem. There’s something inherently wrong with the system that’s not valuing the lives of black women equally to white women.”
Being human is well defined. It is your example here of how to muddy the water is where any confusion is created. I have no doubt you were having dinner with a bunch of anti abortionists to be so misinformed.
Humans are human from conception. There is no time when it can be said it is not human or even just not specifically human.
Where you are mistaken is in thinking that a human is a human is an equal. It's not, it is a tautology.
However the same cannot be said for the concept of rights. In the case of whether to abort or not is an argument that the right of the woman and the right of the unborn are not equal.
As to your point of the woman is under equipped to decide. That raises the question of who is. And if we are to believe your scenario then the answer would have to be no one could possibly understand what is a human. So the only person it makes sense to give the decision to would be the person effected, ie. the pregnant woman.
Do you know what "cite a source" means? It means provide proof of your claims. Notably, a link to proof.
ANY POINT.What point is it that you would like to have linked?
If that were true. And I am not doubting it. Then why cannot such equality also be extended to women who are pregnant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality_in_the_United_States#:~:text=The US has the "highest,17.8 per 100,000 in 2009.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/america-is-failing-its-black-mothers/
Is it not a poor choice to say you have the best health care system is judged by the success of how it handles a pandemic and not by how it handles something that can happen to nearly every woman.
To the claims in post 963.What point is it that you would like to have linked?
How ridiculous are you planning on being. No one is making the argument that a pregnant woman owns the pregnancy or that she can do as she pleases. I have already given you a link that demonstrates that a woman has legal responsibility to the health and welfare of the fetus , post 915# if you care to look again.As you say, the decision is given to the woman. That is the decision of our society that I support.
Whether or not the unborn, in some states now, the recently born, is human or not is in no way associated with any assumed knowledge or capability.
The Mother, by any reasonable assessment of the situation, is pronounced to be the owner of this other human and is entitled to do with it what she will.
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