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I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortion?

anti-abiding

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Murder definition: To put and end to; to destroy

Following this definition as a rule of principle, being that it has been around since the beginning of society, we can view this topic with a clearance, an understanding of what we are fighting for.
So is the removal of a small cluster of cells considered murder? Can it be justified as the removal of a figure head in this world, a cannibalism of our kind? Most would say that to remove
these grouped tissues is like removing layers of skin off of our bodies, the baby won't feel it, it isn't even a baby yet, and it is better for the mother instead of waiting nine stressful months for something you don't want.
But it was all the mother's fault, shouldn't she be responsible and go through with the pregnancy? The baby had no say in the fact that she stayed with a man, that was the mothers choice, and she had to accept the consequences of relation, which means, it was also the mothers choice to become pregnant, not the baby's, shouldn't she also except the consequence of becoming pregnant just like she excepted the consequence of having an enjoyable night? She knew what she was heading into, is it ethically right to avoid consequences? No! Does it make the society morally stronger and high on the values? No! Can it corrupt the world in the sense of snuffed out future generations and future Einsteins? Yes! Does the child that had no choice in what his mother did, have a choice in what she will do? No! Why? Because the mother can only see HER well-being, that is what she saw that night of her first decision, that is what she saw when she took the pills, that is the only thing that she can see, she's blind to others, and she's taking her baby's vision into darkness with her.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Well, I'm quite moderate. The arguments I would use pro-abortion would be
- With the same reasoning, then we could say that every sperm is a future life, but then we are killing millions of lives every single day. Hence, I would say that the value of the child becomes more important during pregnancy
- There are a lot of social problem caused by not letting people having abortions. It will cause a lot of teen pregnancies, which is a social problem both for the mother and the child
- We should respect that the mother may not want the child

However, I believe that if the father wants the child, but the mother doesn't then she will be forced to go through pregnancy, but then the father needs to take care of the child. I imply that there is no rape.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

But if the American teenager has to take care of her baby, then that will cause the teen sex rate to go down. Right now, because a teen can have an abortion and keep on having sex, avoiding all the consequences along the way, the teen sex rate is going up because the American Teen has nothing to worry about anything coming out of sex besides pleasure.

It is only when the sperm and egg collide that I recognize a child life. I think condoms are wrong but just like it takes two to start a fight, I equally believe that it takes two, or three, or eight, to start a life. Even in a baby wanting scenario, you still waste a lot of sperm, it's natural. Abortion, however, is not.




P.S. Man, you rock! I noticed that you are from Norway? I'm from Norway too. Well I was, but I moved to the U.S.A.! Long live NORWAY!!!!! Norwegians are brilliant debaters!!!!
 
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Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

But if the American teenager has to take care of her baby, then that will cause the teen sex rate to go down. Right now, because a teen can have an abortion and keep on having sex, avoiding all the consequences along the way, the teen sex rate is going up because the American Teen has nothing to worry about anything coming out of sex besides pleasure.

It is only when the sperm and egg collide that I recognize a child life. I think condoms are wrong but just like it takes two to start a fight, I equally believe that it takes two, or three, or eight, to start a life. Even in a baby wanting scenario, you still waste a lot of sperm, it's natural. Abortion, however, is not.

P.S. Man, you rock! I noticed that you are from Norway? I'm from Norway too. Well I was, but I moved to the U.S.A.! Long live NORWAY!!!!! Norwegians are brilliant debaters!!!!
Thanks :2razz: Did you grow up in Norway, or did you move as young?

Well, yes it will decrease the rate of teen sex, but we have to weigh up the options. Do we want to get the teen sex rate down, or do we want to get the amount of teenage mothers down. I believe the last one is more important.

For me it's hard to define when life starts, and I don't think it will help to talk about what's natural or not. Why are you against condoms? Didn't you say that you didn't consider sperm life?
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

I moved when I was young! =(


The removal of abortion will work both ways. It will decrease the rate of teen sex, thus, decreasing the rate of teen mothers!!!

I'm a naturalist!! Not the kind that go out and hug tree's and shoot fisherman because they went one over the limit. I just believe that life is to risky to mess with. We shouldn't invent new fangle technology that will make the society think that sex is just for the pleasure and not for what we evolved it to be, to spawn the next generation. I'm into the natural instinct of man. That's why I'm against condoms.


Also, the number of abortions taken place in America is roughly, 15.1 million! That's enough to fill two American states! Which means that America's next generation will be two states smaller!


For me, abortion is like global warming, and Christianity vs atheism fights. There's no proof to support your side that won't be shot down. I mean, you can't really outlaw/agree/with it because there's really no wrong in it, but it's not right either.
 
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Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Damn Norwegians, stealing our debating techniques. :)
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Lol, thanks! Don't Texans have a lot to debate about though???? Quarter inch stake vs prime ribs, Longhorns winning vs Longhorns losing, The f-1500 truck vs the f-2500 truck, Busch beer vs the Budweiser beer, Who will win the rodeo?

It sounds like you Texans are full of debating power too!!!! :)
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

The removal of abortion will work both ways. It will decrease the rate of teen sex, thus, decreasing the rate of teen mothers!!!

Abortion has been illegal before. Teens still had sex. Teens still had shotgun weddings, illegitimate children, and abortions.

I'm a naturalist!! Not the kind that go out and hug tree's and shoot fisherman because they went one over the limit. I just believe that life is to risky to mess with. We shouldn't invent new fangle technology that will make the society think that sex is just for the pleasure and not for what we evolved it to be, to spawn the next generation. I'm into the natural instinct of man. That's why I'm against condoms
.

How about new fangled technology that prevents and treats disease? BTW, condoms are a long way from "new technology."


Also, the number of abortions taken place in America is roughly, 15.1 million! That's enough to fill two American states! Which means that America's next generation will be two states smaller!

Where did you get this number? Current abortion numbers are around 1 million a year in the United States. The number has ranged from 800,000+ to about 1.5 million. The total number since abortion has been declared legal (for those who think there were no abortions before it was decriminalized) in the entire USA is getting close to 50 million. Abortion has been legal for well over 30 years and we aren't running short on the next generation.

For me, abortion is like global warming, and Christianity vs atheism fights. There's no proof to support your side that won't be shot down. I mean, you can't really outlaw/agree/with it because there's really no wrong in it, but it's not right either.

If you think abortion is not "right", then don't have one. But MYOB when it comes to your neighbor.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Murder definition: To put and end to; to destroy

No, the definition of murder (as applies to taking the life of another person) is the unlawful taking of a human life by another human.

The rest of it is a simple appeal to emotion. And a poorly presented one, at that...
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

If you think abortion is not "right", then don't have one. But MYOB when it comes to your neighbor.

QFT :applaud
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Murder definition: To put and end to; to destroy

That's an awful goddamn broad definition of "murder" you're using there, seeing as it would include eating-- vegetables as well as meat-- capital punishment, warfare, and self-defense.

Don't try to prove a narrow concept, like "killing unborn babies is wrong" from much broader concepts like "killing is wrong". You're bound to get yourself tangled in contradictions, not to mention you force yourself to have to try to justify the much broader-- and much more difficult position.

Sometimes, killing is morally obligatory. And in order for something to be morally obligatory, it must also sometimes-- under more conditions-- be morally permissible.

But it was all the mother's fault, shouldn't she be responsible and go through with the pregnancy?

What is irresponsible about aborting the child? That is very much a form of taking responsibility for the fact that she has become pregnant against her own intentions.

You are trying to define abortion as "irresponsible", in order to support your argument that it is wrong. This is circular reasoning.

The baby had no say in the fact that she stayed with a man...

Babies don't get a say in much of anything. They have no choice in being fed, either, or clothed or vaccinated. In fact, all of these things are done to babies whether the babies like it or not.

Babies don't choose to be born any more than they choose to be conceived. So arguing that they have no say in the matter of abortion is completely pointless.

... shouldn't she also except the consequence of becoming pregnant just like she excepted the consequence of having an enjoyable night?

Having to undergo an abortion is just as much "the consequences" of unplanned pregnancy as having a child. The consequences of the decision to have sex are too numerous to list here, including possible pregnancy, but having a child is the consequence of the decision to keep and carry one to term-- not to mention considerable blind luck on the part of the mother.

Does it make the society morally stronger and high on the values?

Define "morally stronger" and the specific moral values that you would like to see heightened. I for one do not care for abortion, but I recognize it as a legitimate tactic in sound reproductive strategy. Sometimes, abortion is the morally correct choice for the woman and her family.

Can it corrupt the world in the sense of snuffed out future generations and future Einsteins? Yes!

There is no evidence that abortion has any significant negative effect on the birth rate-- and as for "future Einsteins", if the child a woman is carrying has the potential to be a future Einstein, chances are the next child she conceives will have similar potential. And children, regardless of their actual potential, are far more likely to live up to that potential when raised in economically and emotionally stable two-parent homes.

The vast majority of children aborted would be born into homes that deviate considerably from this ideal.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Personally, I enjoy eating children way too much to outlaw abortion.

Planned Parenthood is better than a fast-food joint.

TED,
Grinding your bones to make his bread since 1977.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Oh, and in taking apart the tremendous silliness that was the OP, I forgot to post my rationale in favor of abortion.

Fairly simple. Until the baby is born and has been examined by its family-- or any family-- and determined to be worthy of their family name, it doesn't belong to a family, and by extension does not belong to any nation. It has no legal or social identity, and thus no moral value beyond what someone else is willing to invest in it.

As long as the child resides within the mother's body, she's the only person capable of doing so-- and if she refuses, then there is no reason for anyone else to seek to protect the child from the mother's own wishes.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Until the baby is born and has been examined by its family-- or any family-- and determined to be worthy of their family name, it doesn't belong to a family, and by extension does not belong to any nation. It has no legal or social identity, and thus no moral value beyond what someone else is willing to invest in it.

Damn skippy!

Could you pass the barbecue sauce, please? :mrgreen:
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

You know, they're still human beings. Eating any of the neural tissue will cause filthy diseases and make your brain rot.

Same reason you should be wary of anything near the spine when eating apemeat.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

If you think abortion is not "right", then don't have one. But MYOB when it comes to your neighbor.
I'm guessing you wouldn't call the police if you saw your neighbor abusing his kid. His property, right?

Yea, you need better logic than that to justify abortion, just sayin', you know?

owned.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

I'm guessing you wouldn't call the police if you saw your neighbor abusing his kid. His property, right?

Yea, you need better logic than that to justify abortion, just sayin', you know?

owned.

There is a consensus in society that abusing children, or anyone, is wrong, it disturbs order in society and we have laws to reflect that. There IS NO such consensus regarding abortion, therefore one had better be prepared to have neighbors who have different ideas than you and who will act accordingly. IOW, abusing children is not analogous to abortion.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Abortion has been illegal before. Teens still had sex. Teens still had shotgun weddings, illegitimate children, and abortions.

. Yep, I know that. It was illegal in the 60's, 70's, 80's. And such. It will take time, but the pregnancy rate will go down when teens realize they can't keep having sex and avoid the consequences. I never said completely stop!

How about new fangled technology that prevents and treats disease? BTW, condoms are a long way from "new technology."

Please, please, please, read all of what I say before posting a reply. I never said that I was against new fangled technology that prevents diseases. I said (you'd know this if you read it) that I was against new fangled technology used for SEX!! Condoms are relatively new, I've never used one so I really wouldn't care.


Where did you get this number? Current abortion numbers are around 1 million a year in the United States. The number has ranged from 800,000+ to about 1.5 million. The total number since abortion has been declared legal (for those who think there were no abortions before it was decriminalized) in the entire USA is getting close to 50 million. Abortion has been legal for well over 30 years and we aren't running short on the next generation.

I got the numbers from my state. It's been legal for thirty years huh? Well that means that the top generation is still alive, the middle generation is aborting, and the bottom generation is decreased. Once again you jumped to the conclusion that the decrease will instantly happen. What will happen is, the top generation will soon die, then the middle generation will be the top generation and they will still be aborting, the ones that survived the bottom generation will be the middle generation and they will be aborting too, following parental footsteps, meaning that the bottom generation is even MORE decreased!! this sequence will keep going until there are very few babies in America.

If you think abortion is not "right", then don't have one. But MYOB when it comes to your neighbor.


I like debating with people who can speak English. What the hell does MYOB mean??????

You really did get owned by the darkwizard

:) anti-abiding


P.S. If the society has to come up with the rules. Like you plainly stated to the darkwizard. Then aren't you contradicting yourself when you say that it would be wrong for the government to come up with rules on abortion? I mean, if that was true, why can't we smoke pot and drive while drunk? Smoking pot should be legal, it's my own body afterall, I should decide how to use it. Driving while drunk might kill people but so will abortion!
 
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Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

I like debating with people who can speak English. What the hell does MYOB mean??????



:) anti-abiding

'Mind your own business' i believe
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

'Mind your own business' i believe

Thank you so much for telling me what the modern day acronyms mean! :)
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Thank you so much for telling me what the modern day acronyms mean! :)

No problemo :)
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

That's an awful goddamn broad definition of "murder" you're using there, seeing as it would include eating-- vegetables as well as meat-- capital punishment, warfare, and self-defense.

Don't try to prove a narrow concept, like "killing unborn babies is wrong" from much broader concepts like "killing is wrong". You're bound to get yourself tangled in contradictions, not to mention you force yourself to have to try to justify the much broader-- and much more difficult position.

Sometimes, killing is morally obligatory. And in order for something to be morally obligatory, it must also sometimes-- under more conditions-- be morally permissible.


What is the reasoning for abortion to be morally permissible?

What is irresponsible about aborting the child? That is very much a form of taking responsibility for the fact that she has become pregnant against her own intentions.

You are trying to define abortion as "irresponsible", in order to support your argument that it is wrong. This is circular reasoning.

It was her intention to have sex, no responsibility there. Definition of responsibility: Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden. So yes, it is irresponsible if the mother goes against the definition and releases the "burden".

Babies don't get a say in much of anything. They have no choice in being fed, either, or clothed or vaccinated. In fact, all of these things are done to babies whether the babies like it or not.

Babies don't choose to be born any more than they choose to be conceived. So arguing that they have no say in the matter of abortion is completely pointless.

Maybe, but you do have to realize that no matter what it looks like it is, it's a human being, and it still has a voice.

Having to undergo an abortion is just as much "the consequences" of unplanned pregnancy as having a child. The consequences of the decision to have sex are too numerous to list here, including possible pregnancy, but having a child is the consequence of the decision to keep and carry one to term-- not to mention considerable blind luck on the part of the mother.

No, that consequence was added within the last 30 years. I think the consequence that counts is the one that has been around for millions.

Define "morally stronger" and the specific moral values that you would like to see heightened. I for one do not care for abortion, but I recognize it as a legitimate tactic in sound reproductive strategy. Sometimes, abortion is the morally correct choice for the woman and her family.

Sometimes that is true. But do you think that this society and community will get stronger if we dodge the consequences? It's like stealing 1.2 million dollars and have the case be acquitted

There is no evidence that abortion has any significant negative effect on the birth rate-- and as for "future Einsteins", if the child a woman is carrying has the potential to be a future Einstein, chances are the next child she conceives will have similar potential. And children, regardless of their actual potential, are far more likely to live up to that potential when raised in economically and emotionally stable two-parent homes.

Yes. It's not like the decrease will happen instantly. It will take several generations before you notice anything, no non-catastrophe extinctions happen with a snap of your fingers. Albert Einstein had a sister named Maja, I don't hear much about her. was she a famous mathematician? No! Did she indirectly help with the development of the atomic bomb? No! Each person is different and equipped with different talents and ability's. Like snowflakes!

The vast majority of children aborted would be born into homes that deviate considerably from this ideal.




:) anti-abiding
 
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Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKgrannie
Abortion has been illegal before. Teens still had sex. Teens still had shotgun weddings, illegitimate children, and abortions.
. Yep, I know that. It was illegal in the 60's, 70's, 80's. And such. It will take time, but the pregnancy rate will go down when teens realize they can't keep having sex and avoid the consequences. I never said completely stop!

RvW made abortion legal everywhere in this country in 1973. Abortion was illegal most places for over a hundred years before that, and it didn't stop teens from having sex.


How about new fangled technology that prevents and treats disease? BTW, condoms are a long way from "new technology."

Please, please, please, read all of what I say before posting a reply. I never said that I was against new fangled technology that prevents diseases. I said (you'd know this if you read it) that I was against new fangled technology used for SEX!! Condoms are relatively new, I've never used one so I really wouldn't care.

Condoms are relatively old.


Condoms: history, testing and effectiveness


1000 BC
The use of condoms can be traced back several thousand years. It is known that around 1000 BC the ancient Egyptians used a linen sheath for protection against disease.1

100 - 200 AD
The earliest evidence of condom use in Europe comes from scenes in cave paintings at Combarelles in France.2 There is also some evidence that some form of condom was used in imperial Rome.3





Where did you get this number? Current abortion numbers are around 1 million a year in the United States. The number has ranged from 800,000+ to about 1.5 million. The total number since abortion has been declared legal (for those who think there were no abortions before it was decriminalized) in the entire USA is getting close to 50 million. Abortion has been legal for well over 30 years and we aren't running short on the next generation.
I got the numbers from my state. It's been legal for thirty years huh? Well that means that the top generation is still alive, the middle generation is aborting, and the bottom generation is decreased. Once again you jumped to the conclusion that the decrease will instantly happen. What will happen is, the top generation will soon die, then the middle generation will be the top generation and they will still be aborting, the ones that survived the bottom generation will be the middle generation and they will be aborting too, following parental footsteps, meaning that the bottom generation is even MORE decreased!! this sequence will keep going until there are very few babies in America.

The population is not decreasing. Any slowing of the increase in population is due to contraceptives, not abortion.



P.S. If the society has to come up with the rules. Like you plainly stated to the darkwizard. Then aren't you contradicting yourself when you say that it would be wrong for the government to come up with rules on abortion? I mean, if that was true, why can't we smoke pot and drive while drunk? Smoking pot should be legal, it's my own body afterall, I should decide how to use it. Driving while drunk might kill people but so will abortion!

Abortion does not disrupt order in society, so there is no need for government to deal with it. Many people think pot should be legal, I have no opinion on it. Drunk driving disrupts order in society. Not only does it kill people, but the accidents disrupt the orderly flow of traffic. Abortion doesn't kill people, zefs aren't yet people.
 
Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

RvW made abortion legal everywhere in this country in 1973. Abortion was illegal most places for over a hundred years before that, and it didn't stop teens from having sex.




Condoms are relatively old.


Condoms: history, testing and effectiveness


1000 BC
The use of condoms can be traced back several thousand years. It is known that around 1000 BC the ancient Egyptians used a linen sheath for protection against disease.1

100 - 200 AD
The earliest evidence of condom use in Europe comes from scenes in cave paintings at Combarelles in France.2 There is also some evidence that some form of condom was used in imperial Rome.3



Thank you for that.... uumm... interesting history, I hope your condom collecting hobby is doing well too. :)



The population is not decreasing. Any slowing of the increase in population is due to contraceptives, not abortion.

Where did you get this? Abortion and contraceptives are both decreasing the census, why does it matter which is doing it more?



Abortion does not disrupt order in society, so there is no need for government to deal with it. Many people think pot should be legal, I have no opinion on it. Drunk driving disrupts order in society. Not only does it kill people, but the accidents disrupt the orderly flow of traffic. Abortion doesn't kill people, zefs aren't yet people.


HAHAHAHA!!! You've got to be JOKING!!! If abortion does not disrupt society, why are there so many millions of people fighting it and arguing with people? This "disruption in society" is right below your nose. Can't you see it??


:) anti-abiding
 
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Re: I'm kind of new here, but this is my question: What is your reasoning FOR abortio

There is a consensus in society that abusing children, or anyone, is wrong, it disturbs order in society and we have laws to reflect that. There IS NO such consensus regarding abortion, therefore one had better be prepared to have neighbors who have different ideas than you and who will act accordingly. IOW, abusing children is not analogous to abortion.
Oh, so consensus is all that is needed to label something as "disturbs order in society". So, all we have to do is get a consensus against abortion and, you will accept that. nice to know. :2razz:
 
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