• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

"if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- [W:804

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Unfortunately for you folks stuck in the Madisonian narrow viewpoint, the Hamiltonian broad view dominates allowing Congress (representing "we") to tax for the general welfare.
I

I disagree that any one view point "dominates" Congress at the moment. It seems to be a bit of a stalemate, actually. Thankfully. I find it unlikely that any bill which "taxes for the general welfare" would pass in the House at this time.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

If you were going to base an entire speech off one sentence, why didnt you choose this one? Was it bias? Certainly it was. You've ignored that portion as well as every other single part of what he said. I mean he says right there, which is only 3 sentences after the one you've focused on about businesses, so did you just not read that far or did you just ignore it?

See by focusing on a single sentence I can make the speech sound like it was about anything I want, and that's where the fallacy in this kind of thinking is clearly shown.
You are emphasizing the part that Obama de-emphasized, which is rather fallacious on your part. He was clearly trying to downplay the role of the individual businessman contributes to their own success.

Speaking as somebody who built my own successful business, I'd say that it wasn't just what he said that was so insulting, it was the tone of voice he used when he said it.

It's more the depreciating, almost accusatory, tone of his voice that he used when he screamed that into the mic. And that is compounded by the fact that Obama has never started a business and probably never put in an honest constructive hard day's work in his entire life.
 
Last edited:
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

again,

Have you ever been to a town that doesn't have businesses? Look up Ravenden Springs Arkansas, population 137 I believe. The soil is in too bad of shape to be used for anything and the few businesses the town had starved because the populace is too poor to maintain a continuous flow of business. Businesses starve without customers, and communities starve without businesses. The communities you speak of owe their lives to the meager crops they can coax out of the ground. We owe everything we have to commerce, because commerce creates it. Obviously there has to be some framework for a community laid out, but that goes without saying. A minimal level of social order has to be maintained by the government. I would like to see a government that maintained commerce without the help of the business...

And what he says about a busines coming first can be true. Ever heard of a mining town? Demand for a resource creates a business, and people naturally move to areas where they can be closer to this business. conversly, communities can begin without business, but as stated above, they will not last long.


Sounds alot more like business owes everything to its customers
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

You are emphasizing the part that Obama de-emphasized, which is rather fallacious on your part. He was clearly trying to downplay the role of the individual businessman contributes to their own success.

Speaking as somebody who built my own successful business, I'd say that it wasn't just what he said that was so insulting, it was the tone of voice he used when he said it.

It's more the depreciating, almost accusatory, tone of his voice that he used when he screamed that into the mic. And that is compounded by the fact that Obama has never started a business and probably never put in an honest constructive hard day's work in his entire life.

true on all counts. the real danger is what he did not say, but implied. That the fruits of your labor are not yours, that you must share them with everyone that "helped" you along the way.

Obama is a Marxist, if we do not replace him this country will very soon become another example of failed european socialism.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

true on all counts. the real danger is what he did not say, but implied. That the fruits of your labor are not yours, that you must share them with everyone that "helped" you along the way.

Obama is a Marxist, if we do not replace him this country will very soon become another example of failed european socialism.

And he's not the only one to think so. They are called taxes, and we all pay them. We've paid them long before this capitalist "Marxist" came into office.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

And he's not the only one to think so. They are called taxes, and we all pay them. We've paid them long before this capitalist "Marxist" came into office.

Ahh so the business owners already pay their debt to society and dont owe anything more, so Obama was wrong...
Hes telegraphing that he intends to make them pay even more and be ready for the state to take whatever it wants because it "helped" build it. After all, if government has a stake in every business they can take what they want, right? Thats his message and its a dangerous one to anyone that believes in a limited state, like every guy that signed the constitution.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

And he's not the only one to think so. They are called taxes, and we all pay them. We've paid them long before this capitalist "Marxist" came into office.

I think its more than taxes with obama. He would like to nationalize all business and limit the incomes of everyone, that way we would all be "equal" and no one would have their feeeeeeeeeeeeeelings hurt because someone had more stuff than they did.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Ahh so the business owners already pay their debt to society and dont owe anything more, so Obama was wrong...
Hes telegraphing that he intends to make them pay even more and be ready for the state to take whatever it wants because it "helped" build it. After all, if government has a stake in every business they can take what they want, right? Thats his message and its a dangerous one to anyone that believes in a limited state, like every guy that signed the constitution.

What does that even mean? He could want to raise taxes or lower them. He could want to close loop holes and change deductions.

All I am saying is that you are all being ridiculous with your failure to understand basic concepts. Yes, the thinks businesses owe society - in the form of taxes. And he's right, businesses do owe society those taxes. If he wants to change those tax rates, that is not socialism, and if you think it's socialism, then you might want to read a book.

It's embarrassing that this has to be explained.


I think its more than taxes with obama. He would like to nationalize all business and limit the incomes of everyone, that way we would all be "equal" and no one would have their feeeeeeeeeeeeeelings hurt because someone had more stuff than they did.

Well that's unfortunate, because you have absolutely no reason to believe this.
 
Last edited:
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

What does that even mean? He could want to raise taxes, or lower them. He could want to close loop holes, and change deductions.

All I am saying is that you are all being ridiculous with your failure to understand basic concepts. Yes, the thinks businesses owe society - in the form of taxes. Yes, businesses do owe society those taxes. If he wants to change those tax rates, that is not socialism, and if you think it's socialism, then you might want to read a book.

It's embarrassing that this has to be explained.


Well that's unfortunate, because you have absolutely no reason to believe this.

Whats embarassing is you defending this guy because he intends to keep raising taxes on small business owners.
Whats embarassing is Obama doesnt grasp individual effort, he thinks everything flows from the state.
Whats embarassing is thinking small business owners dont already pay their fair share when they already work harder than most.
Whats embarassing is you being fooled into thinking hes not going to raise taxes to pay for the spending hes done.
Whats embarassing is you thinking because the ****ing idiots in Washington cant keep spending within its means that businesses owe it to pony up the difference because some jackass on a podium says they didnt earn their success.
Whats embarassing is we have a President that doesnt get the idea of individual effort and risk, instead he upbraids their efforts to build something that makes their community stronger.
Whats embarassing is you dont understand the difference between a mindset of taxes as a neccessary evil to pay for government and a mindset that says it all belongs in part to government so we are going to take a chunk of how much we want, whenever we want.

You and the community organizer in chief are embarassing.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Whats embarassing is you defending this guy because he intends to keep raising taxes on small business owners.
Whats embarassing is Obama doesnt grasp individual effort, he thinks everything flows from the state.
Whats embarassing is thinking small business owners dont already pay their fair share when they already work harder than most.
Whats embarassing is you being fooled into thinking hes not going to raise taxes to pay for the spending hes done.
Whats embarassing is you thinking because the ****ing idiots in Washington cant keep spending within its means that businesses owe it to pony up the difference because some jackass on a podium says they didnt earn their success.
Whats embarassing is we have a President that doesnt get the idea of individual effort and risk, instead he upbraids their efforts to build something that makes their community stronger.
Whats embarassing is you dont understand the difference between a mindset of taxes as a neccessary evil to pay for government and a mindset that says it all belongs in part to government so we are going to take a chunk of how much we want, whenever we want.

You and the community organizer in chief are embarassing.

WTF are you even talking about? What a rant, man.

Typical Rush Limbaugh nonsense.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

What does that even mean? He could want to raise taxes or lower them. He could want to close loop holes and change deductions.

All I am saying is that you are all being ridiculous with your failure to understand basic concepts. Yes, the thinks businesses owe society - in the form of taxes. And he's right, businesses do owe society those taxes. If he wants to change those tax rates, that is not socialism, and if you think it's socialism, then you might want to read a book.

It's embarrassing that this has to be explained.




Well that's unfortunate, because you have absolutely no reason to believe this.

have you read obama's books? Have you paid attention to who his mentors were? If you don't think he is a marxist redistributionist, give him a second term and you will find out. With no reelection to worry about, he could ram all kinds up crap up our collective a____es.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

have you read obama's books? Have you paid attention to who his mentors were? If you don't think he is a marxist redistributionist, give him a second term and you will find out. With no reelection to worry about, he could ram all kinds up crap up our collective a____es.

with GOP control of the Senate?

you have no clue what you're talking about.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Nice rant. I see you took the Fox News approach: throw out a whole ton of talking points and hope your opponents get so overwhelmed with the avalanche of rhetoric that they just give or run out of time. Bad news for you, I happen to have the time on this particualr day! So Let's begin!
Whats embarassing is you defending this guy because he intends to keep raising taxes on small business owners.
Cite evidence for Obama wanting to raise taxes on small businesses. Guess you weren't paying attention to the fact that Obama has helped to pass tax cuts for small businesses many times.
Whats embarassing is Obama doesnt grasp individual effort, he thinks everything flows from the state.
You have either misinterpreted his rhetoric. He has alluded multiple times to the importance of individual initiative. In fact, he states that he believes it to be important within the very speech that started this whole thread to begin with. Obama has been put on the defensive to defend the important role that the state plays in creating a positive business climate for the reason that so many conservatives have been erroneously attacking and downplaying the important role that government has played in making a better society-economic and social. Sorry that you are frightened by his defense of the federal government, but you must realize that it is merely pushback against the government-hate rhetoric that has been coming out of your own conservative camps as of recent.
Whats embarassing is thinking small business owners dont already pay their fair share when they already work harder than most.
First of all you assume that business owners work harder than most. That is not always the case but, even more importantly, small business owners are actually COMPENSATED more than most as well in the form of higher incomes.
Whats embarassing is you being fooled into thinking hes not going to raise taxes to pay for the spending hes done.
The "spending hes done"?!! Perhaps you need to dig a little deeper and you'd find that the sitting president can't wave a magic wand and curtail government spending just 'cause he feels like it. He inherited a ton of debt and a ton of spending programs, as well as the BTCs and a whole host of vested interests on both sides of the political aisle are working very hard to ensure that their pet projects don't get cut. I really like your image of Obama sitting in the whitehouse writing checks and cashing them all willy-nilly. Sorry. Our government doesn't work that way and Obama has a LOT of company, past and present, if you want to start pointing fingers as to who caused our budget deficit.
Whats embarassing is you thinking because the ****ing idiots in Washington cant keep spending within its means that businesses owe it to pony up the difference because some jackass on a podium says they didnt earn their success.
He never said they didn't ear their success. You are merely claiming he did 'cause he had the nutsuck to get up and defend the important role that government can and has had in creating an environment in which businesses can succeed. And once again, if you are going to claim that he is expecting small businesses to "pony up the difference" to pay for government spending, I would like you to point me to evidence of the tax increases he has either advocated or signed into law that raise taxes on small businesses. Go ahead. I am waiting.
Whats embarassing is we have a President that doesnt get the idea of individual effort and risk, instead he upbraids their efforts to build something that makes their community stronger.
The president has always spoken highly of individual initiative and how important it is in the American Dream. And he was not "upbraiding" individual hard work or effort in this speech. He was upbraiding the foolish claims by many business folk that collective government does not contribute to the ability of business owners to pursue their dreams and become successful. Of course government is important for small businesses and vice-versa. Obama is just, like myself, getting fed to the gills with all the anti-government rhetoric and is beginning to push back against these arguments.
Whats embarassing is you dont understand the difference between a mindset of taxes as a neccessary evil to pay for government and a mindset that says it all belongs in part to government so we are going to take a chunk of how much we want, whenever we want.

You and the community organizer in chief are embarassing.
When did Obama ever imply that they were going to take a "chunk of how much we want, whenever we want"? Where did he say or imply that? It seems to me that you are assuming that he is anti-business merely because he presented an argument for the recognition of the importance of collective government. Many people who believe in collective government value private business and fight tirelessly to promote it and Obama is in this category. And so am I. I, however, am like Obama in that I am getting tired of conservative businessmen screaming that a collective government has no value to them.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

have you read obama's books? Have you paid attention to who his mentors were? If you don't think he is a marxist redistributionist, give him a second term and you will find out. With no reelection to worry about, he could ram all kinds up crap up our collective a____es.

Even Bill O'Reilly doesn't think Obama is a Marxist, socialist, communist, or whatever nonsense label you want to put on him.

Bill O'Reilly: The real Barack Obama has finally stood up - Talking Points - The O'Reilly Factor - Fox News
The President's comments last week about success in America are very important because they show how he really feels about capitalism. If you listen to the anti-Obama forces on talk radio and cable TV, you will hear over and over again that the President is a socialist or a communist.

"Talking Points" has never bought that. It is far too simplistic. Instead, the President is a reluctant capitalist, a man who believes our economic system is stacked against the poor and working class and always has been. Like many liberal people, the President believes American capitalism is often predatory, rewarding the wealthy and exploiting the workers.
So what the President wants to do is restrain capitalism through taxation. If you score big, he wants a big piece of the action. So he can give what you get to other people. Also Mr. Obama wants to regulate how commerce is done in the USA.
Now, I see no evidence that the President wants to seize private property, which is what communists do. Also the feds are not running the Fox News Channel as they would be in a socialistic system, like the one Hugo Chavez has imposed in Venezuela.

Though, Bill O'Reilly has always been the sane voice of the right wing.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

with GOP control of the Senate?

you have no clue what you're talking about.

....the dems control the senate?

 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Even Bill O'Reilly doesn't think Obama is a Marxist, socialist, communist, or whatever nonsense label you want to put on him.

Bill O'Reilly: The real Barack Obama has finally stood up - Talking Points - The O'Reilly Factor - Fox News


Though, Bill O'Reilly has always been the sane voice of the right wing.

Bill O'Reilly has always been the "whats good for Bill O'Reilly" wing of conservatism, IE ratings.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

1.Whats embarassing is you defending this guy because he intends to keep raising taxes on small business owners.
2. Whats embarassing is Obama doesnt grasp individual effort, he thinks everything flows from the state.
3. Whats embarassing is thinking small business owners dont already pay their fair share when they already work harder than most.
4. Whats embarassing is you being fooled into thinking hes not going to raise taxes to pay for the spending hes done.
5. Whats embarassing is you thinking because the ****ing idiots in Washington cant keep spending within its means that businesses owe it to pony up the difference because some jackass on a podium says they didnt earn their success.
6. Whats embarassing is we have a President that doesnt get the idea of individual effort and risk, instead he upbraids their efforts to build something that makes their community stronger.
7. Whats embarassing is you dont understand the difference between a mindset of taxes as a neccessary evil to pay for government and a mindset that says it all belongs in part to government so we are going to take a chunk of how much we want, whenever we want.

You and the community organizer in chief are embarassing.

1. Letting the Bush tax cuts expire then passing tax cuts on those with incomes below 250k will hit small businesses hard. Especially LLPs and LLCs.
2. He talks over and over about how the state is key to success in the US. This speech embodies that.
3. Recent polling data indicates that 77% of people think small business owners work harder than most. This speech reeks of "fair share" arguments.
4. He cannot balance the budget without raising taxes and has moved the goal posts on what the limit is for "rich", ACA alone will be a gigantic tax hike.
5. We have NEVER had a federal program cut below the previous year operating budget. Cut the rate of growth, but actual cuts? No.
6. He doesnt understand the risk because hes never faced it. Until you do it, its pretty hard to appreciate it. This entire speech stank to high heaven of chiding business owners for not wanting to pay more to the state. Its his MO, has been since hes been a politician, social justice through wealth redistribution was one of his favorite talking points before he became a senator. Im from Illinois, I know this assholes record, apparently you dont.
7. Chrysler and GM TARP bailouts ring any bells? How about upending first lien law? How about EPA regs that are shutting down coal? Its not just taxes, the power to regulate a business to death amounts to the same thing. The state will do what it wants, when it wants.

Im not hitting you with a ton of arguments, Im giving you about 7 :) No wall of text rebuttal for you, keep it brief.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

more than the GOP does.

A less than elegant cover for your mind numbingly stupid mistake. You may go now.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

1. Letting the Bush tax cuts expire then passing tax cuts on those with incomes below 250k will hit small businesses hard. Especially LLPs and LLCs.
According to the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire on family income above $250,000 will affect 3 percent of America's small businesses.
According to the Tax Policy Center, 1.5 percent of tax filers reporting business income are in the top two income tax brackets that President Obama wants to let expire at the end of this year.
A Treasury Department report finds that only 2.5 percent of business owners taxed at the individual rate are in those top two tax brackets.
Sorry, the alarmist conservative thinktanks may try to scare you into thinking this is armageddon for millions of small businesses, but it is empty rhetoric. Very few small businesses will be negatively impacted by the BTCs expiring.

2. He talks over and over about how the state is key to success in the US. This speech embodies that.
He talks over and over as to how important it is. But he also stresses how important individual effort and hard work as well. This is just a disagreement as to the relative value of having collective government. I put more emphasis on it than you do, but I certainly hope you aren't so foolish as to pretend that it doesn't play a very important role in creating a healthy environment for business to thrive in.

3. Recent polling data indicates that 77% of people think small business owners work harder than most. This speech reeks of "fair share" arguments.
And I think you'd find that, on average, small business owners earn more than others. In other words, they are often rewarded for that effort-just as it should be.

4. He cannot balance the budget without raising taxes and has moved the goal posts on what the limit is for "rich", ACA alone will be a gigantic tax hike.
Taxes must be raised, spending must be cut. He cannot do it alone. Far from it. In fact, it is nearly impossible with the uncooperative Republican majority in the Congress.
5. We have NEVER had a federal program cut below the previous year operating budget. Cut the rate of growth, but actual cuts? No.
Completely erroneous. Community Development Fund was cut. Public Housing Capital Fund was cut. National Science Foundation was cut. WIC was cut. Justin Department was cut. Many more. Not sure where you got this number, but plenty of programs were cut. I will agree with you, however, that the cuts were rather minor and did not go far enough. Would love to see our military budget get knocked to its knees. Probably won't happen though.
6. He doesnt understand the risk because hes never faced it. Until you do it, its pretty hard to appreciate it. This entire speech stank to high heaven of chiding business owners for not wanting to pay more to the state. Its his MO, has been since hes been a politician, social justice through wealth redistribution was one of his favorite talking points before he became a senator. Im from Illinois, I know this assholes record, apparently you dont.
He was chiding SOME business owners for their misguided "I did this all on my own, with no help from anyone" argument. Not the same as telling them they need to pay more taxes. You've perhaps interpreted as such because you seem willing to assume the worst about our president and assign the worst of intentions to him. I think we are probably due from a little bit of wealth distribution myself. The top 5% have seen there share of national income for several decades now and I think it high time to stop and even reverse this trend a bit. Obama is, remember, letting the BTCs expire for only the wealthiest of our citizens.

7. Chrysler and GM TARP bailouts ring any bells? How about upending first lien law? How about EPA regs that are shutting down coal? Its not just taxes, the power to regulate a business to death amounts to the same thing. The state will do what it wants, when it wants.
Im not hitting you with a ton of arguments, Im giving you about 7 :) No wall of text rebuttal for you, keep it brief.
I plead with the EPA to do everything it can to stop the burning of coal. Global warming is dangerous and the burning of coal needs to stop, period. Nuclear needs to be ramped up and we need to invest huge amounts of money(as a nation, through our government if we have to), in cleaner energies. It's time to move on from 19th century modes of generating electricity. Very few businesses/industires have been regulated to death. That's a myth. And the ones that have are often those that needed to be regulated out of existence in the first place because their activities were too harmful to our economy as a whole.
Also, seeing as how our government reps are up for election every four years I feel fairly confident in saying that they will not do "whatever they want, whenever they want". In addition we have a two-party system and a system of checks-and-balances that ensures they act with some degree of restraint!
 
Last edited:
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

you know, I just re-read the quote.

and gosh darn it, it is actually possible that Obama was indeed saying what they are accusing him of saying.

Im sure he didn't mean it the way they are making it out to mean, but he may have indeed said it.

huh....
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

According to the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire on family income above $250,000 will affect 3 percent of America's small businesses.
According to the Tax Policy Center, 1.5 percent of tax filers reporting business income are in the top two income tax brackets that President Obama wants to let expire at the end of this year.
A Treasury Department report finds that only 2.5 percent of business owners taxed at the individual rate are in those top two tax brackets.
Sorry, the alarmist conservative thinktanks may try to scare you into thinking this is armageddon for millions of small businesses, but it is empty rhetoric. Very few small businesses will be negatively impacted by the BTCs expiring.......

Because a "small business" is any business currently registered, and active, with the secretary of state in their respective states. Usually that is about a $100-150 fee per year, and "shazzam", you are a small business. Able to function as an LLC, or sole-proprietorship, or sub S, etc. Not making a profit, and you are the only employee, but you are protected by a corporate veil !

When are libs ever going to build something ? Become an employer .... at which point they stay libs for all of a few months, wake up to reality, and become Conservatives ?

Small business that makes over $200K per year create 70% of the jobs in this country. Liberals, on the other hand, collect 70% of the unemployment and disability. Go figure. ;)

That is where these stupid statistics that you cite come from.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

you know, I just re-read the quote.

and gosh darn it, it is actually possible that Obama was indeed saying what they are accusing him of saying.

Im sure he didn't mean it the way they are making it out to mean, but he may have indeed said it.

huh....

No.. he meant it, an objective vetting of Obama shows his socialist, commie belief system...this is nothing to new to anyone who knows who this fraud really is..
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

No.. he meant it, an objective vetting of Obama shows his socialist, commie belief system...this is nothing to new to anyone who knows who this fraud really is..

He was referring to roads and bridges. Get a brain and come back at a later date.
 
Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Because a "small business" is any business currently registered, and active, with the secretary of state in their respective states. Usually that is about a $100-150 fee per year, and "shazzam", you are a small business. Able to function as an LLC, or sole-proprietorship, or sub S, etc. Not making a profit, and you are the only employee, but you are protected by a corporate veil !

When are libs ever going to build something ? Become an employer .... at which point they stay libs for all of a few months, wake up to reality, and become Conservatives ?

Small business that makes over $200K per year create 70% of the jobs in this country. Liberals, on the other hand, collect 70% of the unemployment and disability. Go figure. ;)

That is where these stupid statistics that you cite come from.

The stats I quoted, nonetheless, hold true. Spin 'em how you want.
Proof please, that 70% of all unemployment and disability is collected by libs. Where is your evidence for this claim? I want to see it. If you can't produce it, you are nothing but a talker with no substance behind your words. Everyone I know in my community that is on unemployment or on disability is a conservative Republican. I'm not making that up!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom