"if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- [W:804

[OpportunityCost]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Let me clue you into something about human history, community was created before business, business comes as a result of community.

You have put the cart before the horse.

Let me clue you into something about American history, communities were created by businesses, communities came about as a result of businesses. Commerce built this infrastructure every bit as much as government.

In modern society you cannot have a community without business of some sort. Your post is stupid.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

That they as citizens already paid for. Yes...we all agree that we all pay taxes (some more than others) for existing services. As for risk, investment, an any other effort? Nada.

They, as a single citizen DID NOT PAY ALL BY THEMSELVES FOR THE EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THEY DEPEND UPON.

Just like OC, you have put the cart before the horse.

 

[MyNameWuzTaken]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

I think it's sad to see the hard working entrepreneurs demonized.

In response: Yes, other people have contributed to an individuals success along the way. The entrepreneur uses the roads, the hospitals, and accepts protection from the law; So does EVERYONE else, and we pay taxes for it. A fact of economics, often overlooked, is that an individuals success naturally promotes the success of the people around him. The business owner who amasses wealth is not just sitting on a big pile of benjamins in the middle of their living room. They are spending that money and stimulating the economy. They are already giving money back through natural economic processes.

If my business takes off and my income increases, then so does the amount that I spend, invest, and save. The increased demand created by my spending creates new jobs for production. The increased investing helps both my company, my suppliers and public companies grow. The increased savings reduces my need to pull money from the government for retirement. Once my savings and investments are diversified enough I can spend even more. The cycle continues.

It is a well known fact that the government is the least efficient spender of all. If every single business owner and corporation contributes to the growth of the economy (excluding non-best practices), then why should the government take money from any of them? All it will do is piddle the money away through layer after layer of beurocracy, and through quick fixes to "economic issues" that address the symptoms and not the problem.

Nearly every economic issue we face today can be traced back to bad legislation in a former age. Taxes are increased to pay for these hot fixes that don't really do anything except cause more issues down the road. When the hot fix doesn't work, the government points fingers at people who simply learned to deal with the problem created by bad legislation. The masses believe the government and ellect the next leader who proposes a hot fix. The cycle continues. In the end, the candidate who says "Yeah it sucks, but it will get better with time" never gets elected. People are too impatient to allow the economy to fix itself, as it is prone to do.

Big government is bad government. We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot, and then letting the government put a bandaid on it. Cut out the infection, treat the source of the problem, do your therapy, and live with the pain for a little while. Eventually it will heal and you'll be glad you did it the hard way.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Absolutely false. I'm not even remotely close to arguing that. I'm focusing entirely on the facts. You've invented the above argument all on your own.

Then you havent been listening to Obama. This is all part of his fair share argument. YOU may not be saying it but Obama IS.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

You know the last thing that one would do if they wanted to transform the country into a socialist society from a capitalist one?

Use ****load of public money save a bunch of private companies that are deemed "too big to fail".

The best thing to do to create the socialist utopia? Let those companies fail and then use that failure, and the subsequent damage that it caused to the economy, as an argument for the failings of a capitalist society.

The bail out was the worst possible thing that he could have done to promote socialism.

Hey. Can't crash it until one is ready. Is not a crash still very likely ? Or at least very possible with the proper couple of nudges ?

The banks etc will be at the mercy of government when the time comes. They will be needed. An elite still has to run the show.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Let me clue you into something about American history, communities were created by businesses, communities came about as a result of businesses. Commerce built this infrastructure every bit as much as government.

In modern society you cannot have a community without business of some sort. Your post is stupid.

BS. Tribal man did not first create a business and then, spontaneously, a community simply sprung up. You have totally missed out on understanding the ascent of man.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

They, as a single citizen DID NOT PAY ALL BY THEMSELVES FOR THE EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THEY DEPEND UPON.

Just like OC, you have put the cart before the horse.

They pay more than citizens do. Why do you keep ignoring this part of our argument? Stop presenting a fase choice. We arent saying they need to pay nothing. We are saying the present taxation is more than adequate, we dont think they need to pay more, Obama thinks they do.

Sorry Vance, I think you agree if you dont feel free to let me know.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

BS. Tribal man did not first create a business and then, spontaneously, a community simply sprung up. You have totally missed out on understanding the ascent of man.

Thank you for cleaving to an argument that makes no sense today. Now come along to modern society and try your argument out, it fails.

Business and communties need each other, but businesses have to pay for the partnership.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

They pay more than citizens do.

Again, you are ignoring all of the previous costs paid by the community in building itself up. You come into this blind to the past and believe that the community magically appeared, without cost to anyone, and the put-upon start-up is bearing all of the costs to begin.

It is such a narrow, blind view of recent history that goes along with your total misunderstanding of ancient history. I see this same affliction with nearly all libertarians, a total misunderstanding of human history.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

BS. Tribal man did not first create a business and then, spontaneously, a community simply sprung up. You have totally missed out on understanding the ascent of man.

All you are doing is spewing the Collectivist mantra over and over. Those of us who believe in individual liberty and self-improvement understand it.

We see it as the folly that it is is all.

 

[MyNameWuzTaken]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Thats not what he meant... Tribal man followed the food to where it could be found. Then someone realised they could grow the food wherever they wanted, and started a farm. Other people thought that was pretty neat, and so they started to do the same thing. Then Tribal man realised he could sell the food he didn't need for cool things he couldn't produce on his own. Commerce is born. People begin to specialize in what they are best at, and produce larger sums through specialization. This excess allows everyone to have things that were previously difficult to obtain.

The money that you want your government to spend for that infrastructure? Generated by the private sector. The contractors that actually built the roads? Private sector. We do owe protection and the formation of basic social structure to the government. Wealth, production, and the availability of goods that would have previously been considered "magic"? Those are all owed to the private sector and the entrepreneurial spirit of man.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Let a man become a master fisherman, feed him, his neighbours, and anyone with useful skill to trade for fish.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Thank you for cleaving to an argument that makes no sense today. Now come along to modern society and try your argument out, it fails.

Business and communties need each other, but businesses have to pay for the partnership.

Of course they have to pay their part, but it is much lower that having to pay for a start-up in the wilds of Patagonia.

Again, you absolutely fail to see the links in the chain of events of how we got to where we are. You are ignoring history, you have to because your narrative needs, requires, that history is forgotten.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Obama: no one owns their success. Government will not take your efforts into consideration. We will take more from you and will demogague any that do not give in as selfish. Government created your wealth opportunity so government has the right to take the fruits of your efforts because we created the groundwork.

Hes using envy at its finest---YOU the taxpayer, helped found that business, so we are going to confiscate as large of a chunk as we can to give back to YOU the taxpayer in the form of benefits. YOU, business owner------WHY ARENT YOU HIRING!?!?

What a dumbass.

So your answer is that it's neither one of the previous points?!?!?

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Hey. Can't crash it until one is ready. Is not a crash still very likely ? Or at least very possible with the proper couple of nudges ?

The time to allow them to fail in order to promote socialism was never more perfect than when the bailouts occurred. The govenrment would have had to "ride to the rescue" of the people instead of the corporations.

If anything, the bailouts did more to prevent socialism in America than anything over the last 50 years has.

The banks etc will be at the mercy of government when the time comes. They will be needed. An elite still has to run the show.

I don't think you understand what socialism actually is.

 

[MyNameWuzTaken]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Of course they have to pay their part, but it is much lower that having to pay for a start-up in the wilds of Patagonia.

Again, you absolutely fail to see the links in the chain of events of how we got to where we are. You are ignoring history, you have to because your narrative needs, requires, that history is forgotten.

Of what history do you speak?

Have you ever been to a town that doesn't have businesses? Look up Ravenden Springs Arkansas, population 137 I believe. The soil is in too bad of shape to be used for anything and the few businesses the town had starved because the populace is too poor to maintain a continuous flow of business. Businesses starve without customers, and communities starve without businesses. The communities you speak of owe their lives to the meager crops they can coax out of the ground. We owe everything we have to commerce, because commerce creates it. Obviously there has to be some framework for a community laid out, but that goes without saying. A minimal level of social order has to be maintained by the government. I would like to see a government that maintained commerce without the help of the business...

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Again, you are ignoring all of the previous costs paid by the community in building itself up. You come into this blind to the past and believe that the community magically appeared, without cost to anyone, and the put-upon start-up is bearing all of the costs to begin.

It is such a narrow, blind view of recent history that goes along with your total misunderstanding of ancient history. I see this same affliction with nearly all libertarians, a total misunderstanding of human history.

We arent talking about ancient history. We are talking about today. Well I am. You are desperately reaching for a derail. Ancient communities and todays communiities are apples and oranges; they arent very similar at all.

How about we go back on topic?

 

[VanceMack]

They, as a single citizen DID NOT PAY ALL BY THEMSELVES FOR THE EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THEY DEPEND UPON.

Just like OC, you have put the cart before the horse.

Not at all. We as members of a society pay taxes for streets, services, government, etc. that's understood and I am the first to say we as a society need to pay MORE. I as a property owner (of both residential and commercial properties) pay more than my fair share for that infrastructure. That's a given and a constant. BEYOND that, the topic is the creation of BUSINESSES. Prior to November you play precisely ZERO roles in my decisions. After November you have contributed precisely zero. Without your investment I have fully employed 10 people. You have absolutely nothing to do with the risk, investment, sweat, success or failure of that business. I pay MORE to the community. I offer 10 families insurance and means. You contribute NOTHING to that effort.

 

[Stopandthink]

Yeah, what could be more arrogant than pointing out that no one truly does it all on his or her own. We all get a little help from others along the way.... :roll:

Or maybe I'm mistaken? Maybe arrogant is thinking that you, all on your own, without the benefit of your parents' wisdom, or learning from teachers, or advice from friends and acquaintences, or the sound structures of government built over two centuries, or just a lucky break here and there, built whatever it is that you managed to build. :shrug:

What I'm getting at is the purpose of why he thinks he even needs to say such a thing. He should be a champion for individual opportunity since that is a cornerstone of what our freedom is about and what has made our country and government great. Since govt is a product of the people, Obama, an elected official, is arrogant for thinking he needs to be the one to tell me I didn't build my own business. How about making himself useful in the best way possible as an elected office holder and shutting up about who I owe my success to?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

We arent talking about ancient history. We are talking about today. Well I am. You are desperately reaching for a derail. Ancient communities and todays communiities are apples and oranges; they arent very similar at all.

How about we go back on topic?

Again, you fail to recognize that community existed before business, that business depends upon community. Until you recognize this most basic of concepts, you will not understand that your premise of "business came first" is totally baseless.

You can't even begin a topic without having a firm understanding of basic principles.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet in this thread but one thing that strikes me about these Obama statements is the 180 degree difference between the way he views America and American Government and the way that I and most people I associate with do.

When he says that successful business owners didn't build their businesses without the help of others(particularly the help of government) it is because, in his mind, government is the root or foundation that everything else is derived from. I don't think it has ever occurred to the guy that the opposite is true. It is the people that are the foundation of our society and government only exists to ensure that we have the freedom to create, invent, innovate, etc... His view of America is warped and not at all in step with constitutional principles. In short, his view of governments roll in society are that of a Marxist. All that his words do for me is simply to validate what many have been saying about him for years now.

 

[randel]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Again, you are ignoring all of the previous costs paid by the community in building itself up. You come into this blind to the past and believe that the community magically appeared, without cost to anyone, and the put-upon start-up is bearing all of the costs to begin.

It is such a narrow, blind view of recent history that goes along with your total misunderstanding of ancient history. I see this same affliction with nearly all libertarians, a total misunderstanding of human history.

what is it about this that is so hard for him and several others to understand?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Not at all. We as members of a society pay taxes for streets, services, government, etc. that's understood and I am the first to say we as a society need to pay MORE. I as a property owner (of both residential and commercial properties) pay more than my fair share for that infrastructure. That's a given and a constant. BEYOND that, the topic is the creation of BUSINESSES. Prior to November you play precisely ZERO roles in my decisions. After November you have contributed precisely zero. Without your investment I have fully employed 10 people. You have absolutely nothing to do with the risk, investment, sweat, success or failure of that business. I pay MORE to the community. I offer 10 families insurance and means. You contribute NOTHING to that effort.

You keep contradicting your own argument, you recognize that we as a community created the environment for your business to come about, and then you say we as a collective contributed nothing to your business's ability to start up.

I cannot understand where your disconnect begins.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

The problem with Obama's argument, which is being missed by so many, is that his logic is invalid. His stated premises are true, but they do not necessarily lead to the conclusion he makes about raising taxes on the wealthy.

For that conclusion to be reached, another unstated premise must be present: wealthier people in a society have an obligation to pay more taxes in order to preserve that society.

That premise can be debated. His belief is that they are obligated to do so. Obligation, however, is a squirrelly word for such an argument because its based on one's own moral code, not some objective measure.

 

[rocket88]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

Who paid for all that stuff? The business.

Not as individuals. They did it as part of society as a whole.

The money comes from businesses, but these things get built because the government collects taxes and spends the money on them.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: "if you own a business, you didn't build it. Somebody else made that happe" -- O

what is it about this that is so hard for him and several others to understand?

It baffles me to no end, libertarians have one foot in anarchism (which I get, but even it recognizes community/cooperation/following the golden rule) and one foot in business.

Like I said, they absolutely need to remove themselves from human history, recent or ancient, so that their narrative doesn't conflict with it. It is as if they came into this world with all infrastructure pre-existing, that there is no need for them to understand how it all came about.