• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

If you are a current citizen, can you prove you are a citizen of the United States of America without due process?

If you are a current citizen, can you prove you are a citizen of the United States of America withou


  • Total voters
    11

Jason Warfield

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
5,472
Reaction score
4,634
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
The context is hypothetical: ICE has come up to you, either at home, place of work or just while you out walking around and takes you into custody for possibly being an illegal alien or in violation immigration status, even though you are an actual citizen of the US and you are denied due process.

Once in custody, can you prove your identity as an American citizen if you are denied due process, or just moments before being cuffed?

This is a hypothetical, so please spare us any posting of "It won't happen to me because...."...or...deign that this is a stupid poll instead of answering yes or no and why. If you can't answer yes or no and possibly give an explanation, please don't bother making a post this poll/thread, just move on to something else. Thank you.
 
The context is hypothetical: ICE has come up to you, either at home, place of work or just while you out walking around and takes you into custody for possibly being an illegal alien or in violation immigration status, even though you are an actual citizen of the US and you are denied due process.

Once in custody, can you prove your identity as an American citizen if you are denied due process, or just moments before being cuffed?

This is a hypothetical, so please spare us any posting of "It won't happen to me because...."...or...deign that this is a stupid poll instead of answering yes or no and why. If you can't answer yes or no and possibly give an explanation, please don't bother making a post this poll/thread, just move on to something else. Thank you.

Yes, but I shouldn't have to. I should be assumed innocent until proven guilty, something the ICE jackboots don't understand.
 
I have a valid passport so I think I'm good. If they came to the door, they'd have to wait a minute or two while I dug around the safe. I also have real ID, TSA pre and global entry. And Clear. (I travel a lot!)
 
I carry my passport with me at all times when I am outside my home. It's a matter of simple prudence at this point. Folded within it is also a copy of my birth certificate, but I imagine a significant percentage of ICE employees are current or former Birthers so whether any of this amounts to "proof" in their eyes is an open question.
 
You can't prove it without due process because they could confiscate it and simply say you didn't have any ID on you. Without due process, you have no right to be heard by anyone, to go before anyone who would be able to release you from custody, to hear the evidence against you and that you may have to counter it.
 
I'm an upper middle class pale white lady of English descent so it's unlikely I look like an "illegal" to anyone. So, I don't carry around any ID but my license. If I did not look like someone who worked at Downtown Abbey, I'd definitely carry around more ID.
 
Last edited:
I'm an upper middle class pale white lady of English descent so it's unlikely I look like an "illegal" by anyone. So, I don't carry around any ID but my license. If I did not look like someone who worked at Downtown Abbey, I'd definitely carry around more ID.
Must be nice. As a non-white, darker skinned man, I carry around a passport and birth certificate copy if I step outdoors. Donald is looking for 3,000 a day and he doesn't much care whether they are citizens or not.
 

Question Asked: "If you are a current citizen, can you prove you are a citizen of the United States of America without due process?"​


The answer is yes, by virtue of several legal documents.

1. A valid State Birth Certificate. (Everyone should retain at least one copy).
2. Copies of my military service documents, and my Veterans Administration I.D. card.
3. A U.S. Passport.

Note: I suppose I could invest in a "Real ID" instead of just getting a regular driver's license, but since I have no current or future intentions to travel outside the USA, I don't see the need for the extra expense.

As for "Due Process," that typically applies to criminal and civil cases of law.

However, Immigration Law applies to migrants and foreign persons seeking asylum, or other temporary status for work, education, or a visa to visit (tourism/work/education).

NOTE: I did not include my Social Security card. This because such can also be issued to legal aliens for work purposes under Section 211 of the SSPA: https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0300301102
 
Last edited:
Must be nice. As a non-white, darker skinned man, I carry around a passport and birth certificate copy if I step outdoors. Donald is looking for 3,000 a day and he doesn't much care whether they are citizens or not.
I obviously can't understand what you are going through but I'm sorry that you've been made to feel uncomfortable in your own country because of Trump's nonsense.
 
I have a copy of my birth certificate and my DD214.

I have a drivers license but its not a Real ID.

My passport is expired but I have one.
 
The good news for me is that where I have chosen to live their version of ICE doesn't think nor work like the current maga version. Even if my accent got me questioned, which it wouldn't, there would be nothing more than a friendly and polite discussion while they did some online record checking, or while I grabbed some documents from my pocket or home depending on where I was having the interaction. No handcuffs, no taken to jail etc. Just normal politeness and curtesy while the reason for the questioning was addressed. My question is, why can't the maga ICE mostly work in a similar way? I guess the answer is that they are more focussed on reaching their target numbers than on basic human compassion and trying not to unnecessarily hurt people.

I am actually happy to see illegal bad guys deported, but treating everyone as a 'bad guy' by default just to hit targeted numbers is a nasty reflection of what maga really stands for. This process could be handled so much better in terms of both basic human values, and the potential impact on the economy. But Trump is all about the hate rhetoric and making his trained seals clap. End result is that we don't end up with the best possible result, and in this case we end up with a very poor result by design.
 
While I am in good shape, it could have been an issue for my mom when she was alive.

Her original birth records were destroyed in a fire in a Pennsylvania courthouse.
 
I can easily prove citizenship without due process.

My great great, (6 greats) grandfather was Robert Morris, who was the Financier of the Revolutionary War. R. Morris signed the Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation, and the U.S Constitution. He was a Founding Father.

I inherited Robert Morris' wallet (it's huge) with the letters RM embossed on one side, and a letter he penned to the Bank of North America on May 4th 1788.

Naturally, I don't carry these items with me wherever I go, but I have photos in my phone showing me holding the historical artifacts.

Upon seeing the photos, any arresting ICE agent would release me immediately. (I would still need to speak to the ICE agent's superiors, though.)
Excellent, now we all can carry a photo on our phones showing us holding a large wallet with the letters RM embossed on one side, and claim that this confirms without a shadow of a doubt our citizenship.

Here's the one I'm using. When I showed this to ICE the other day, their jaws dropped so quickly that it literally caused their masks to fall off. One guy, a big strong guy, came up to me with tears in his eyes and said Sir, because of great respect he said Sir, we never knew how powerful your citizenship could be sir. If anybody needs a picture of their hand holding a wallet, let me know - we can even adjust the monogram to the revolutionary war ancestor of your choice.

1749171201665.webp
 
The short answer is probably no. I carry my drivers license that has read ID, but that's it. Due process would uncover Global Entry, a valid US passport, and a birth certificate.

It's a sad day when you feel the need to carry around documents to prove that you live legally in the U.S.
 
Where I live, citizens are required to obtain an ID card within 60 days of their 7th birthday. ALL persons, by law are required to carry ID, card or passport. Travel between provinces sometimes results in a stop to show ID as some legal residents are not allowed to travel outside their resident province without permission. My Wife is such a person, while my Son, Daughter, and myself possess ID which allows us to travel freely. Four times each year I am required to file forms with immigration, or be fined or in worst case deported. I've provided nearly 4 reams of photo copies to immigration so far.
I wouldn't change a thing.
 
The context is hypothetical: ICE has come up to you, either at home, place of work or just while you out walking around and takes you into custody for possibly being an illegal alien or in violation immigration status, even though you are an actual citizen of the US and you are denied due process.

Once in custody, can you prove your identity as an American citizen if you are denied due process, or just moments before being cuffed?

This is a hypothetical, so please spare us any posting of "It won't happen to me because...."...or...deign that this is a stupid poll instead of answering yes or no and why. If you can't answer yes or no and possibly give an explanation, please don't bother making a post this poll/thread, just move on to something else. Thank you.
Define "without due process".
 
Of course if you are white you don’t have to worry about this.
 
The context is hypothetical: ICE has come up to you, either at home, place of work or just while you out walking around and takes you into custody for possibly being an illegal alien or in violation immigration status, even though you are an actual citizen of the US and you are denied due process.

Once in custody, can you prove your identity as an American citizen if you are denied due process, or just moments before being cuffed?

This is a hypothetical, so please spare us any posting of "It won't happen to me because...."...or...deign that this is a stupid poll instead of answering yes or no and why. If you can't answer yes or no and possibly give an explanation, please don't bother making a post this poll/thread, just move on to something else. Thank you.

At home and at work/out walking around are 2 very different things.

At home you may likely store such documents as passport, birth certificate, etc.

Out in public...who does? Not everyone has Enhanced Driver's Licenses, for ex. So the question is...what is the probable cause for being asked? (Do you consider this...requiring probable cause...part of due process? We do have a 4th Amendment.)
 
At home and at work/out walking around are 2 very different things.

At home you may likely store such documents as passport, birth certificate, etc.

Out in public...who does? Not everyone has Enhanced Driver's Licenses, for ex. So the question is...what is the probable cause for being asked? (Do you consider this...requiring probable cause...part of due process? We do have a 4th Amendment.)
The point of the question is, at any given moment that ICE takes you into custody, can you provide proof of citizenship. Keep in mind a driver's license and a Social Security card are NOT considered proof of citizenship.
 
At home and at work/out walking around are 2 very different things.

At home you may likely store such documents as passport, birth certificate, etc.

Out in public...who does? Not everyone has Enhanced Driver's Licenses, for ex. So the question is...what is the probable cause for being asked? (Do you consider this...requiring probable cause...part of due process? We do have a 4th Amendment.)
They are rounding up illegals and they take you into custody without due process (hypothetical).
 
I have a copy of my birth certificate and my DD214.

I have a drivers license but its not a Real ID.

My passport is expired but I have one.
If you were taken into custody, would you be able to provide it on the spot? Knowing that if there is no due process, if you don't have it on you, it won't matter then.

BTW, a Real ID is NOT considered proof of citizenship, I believe the other documents would be.
 

Question Asked: "If you are a current citizen, can you prove you are a citizen of the United States of America without due process?"​


The answer is yes, by virtue of several legal documents.

1. A valid State Birth Certificate. (Everyone should retain at least one copy).
2. Copies of my military service documents, and my Veterans Administration I.D. card.
3. A U.S. Passport.

Note: I suppose I could invest in a "Real ID" instead of just getting a regular driver's license, but since I have no current or future intentions to travel outside the USA, I don't see the need for the extra expense.

As for "Due Process," that typically applies to criminal and civil cases of law.

However, Immigration Law applies to migrants and foreign persons seeking asylum, or other temporary status for work, education, or a visa to visit (tourism/work/education).

NOTE: I did not include my Social Security card. This because such can also be issued to legal aliens for work purposes under Section 211 of the SSPA: https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0300301102
The hypothetical here is that you don't get due process because you are suspected of not being a citizen which some believe means you have no due process. (IRL, which is what I am basing this hypothetical off of). That means you have to be able to provide proof of citizenship in the moment ICE wants to take you into custody (in this hypothetical).

BTW, a Real ID, Social Security card and Veterans Administration ID card are NOT considered proof of citizenship.
 
Back
Top Bottom