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If Voter ID is racist, what is keeping races from getting Voter ID?[W:243,567]

Why is it automatically assumed the poor are of a certain race, have certain limitations, and are unable to make any kind of effort towards something?

You're the only one who has brought up race here.

No one is saying they can't make an effort towards something. We are saying they shouldn't have to because these laws hurt only the poor and don't solve any problems that actually exist.

I suppose it's a good thing these prejudices are brought into the light, but I can't imagine writing off a group of people so easily, while hiding it under some other message.

You saw race where none was mentioned. Perhaps these prejudices you mention are coming from the man in the mirror?
 
Usually polling stations are in your community. Places where you get an ID are not.

Really? The Secretary of State office is right in town, closer to my house than my township polling station. The polling stations out in the country tend to be in fire stations (centrally located in the neighborhoods they serve) or schools (centrally located in the neighborhoods they serve). So what about those people who live on the edge of a township, miles from a polling station? Or a grocery store for that matter. They already need transportation if they live out in the county, so that argument is a nonstarter. Most poor minorities live in the inner city, where everything is within walking distance, so that argument is a nonstarter.
 
Most government offices are closed by 4pm.

It's not just a matter of having the time, but having the right time.

This is true for all people wanting to vote, or desiring to vote, a salient point you keep missing. The fact is, there are some inconveniences associated with the right to vote people must endure and the existence of them does not render them a significant burden to voting. Government office times is one of the inconveniences all people wanting to vote must endure. This is similar to your previous argument some counties didn't have a DMV to issue a DL or government issued photo ID and therefore people had to rely upon families, public transportation, etcetera, to get to the DMV, a burden they must experience to get to the polling place to cast a ballot. You then of course referenced absentee balloting but when asked who qualified, you responded it depended on the specific State, weakening your reference to absentee balloting as a sufficient rebuttal to my argument.

To qualify as a "substantial" burden to voting (judicial system uses the language of "substantial"), it must be more than the mere inconvenience or expected responsibility associated with the activity.
 
Really? The Secretary of State office is right in town, closer to my house than my township polling station.

Polling stations are designed to be in every precinct. The DMV is not.

So, while there may be exceptions, most of the time you should expect to find a polling station nearby. You shouldn't expect the same of a DMV office.
 
You're the only one who has brought up race here.

No one is saying they can't make an effort towards something. We are saying they shouldn't have to because these laws hurt only the poor and don't solve any problems that actually exist.



You saw race where none was mentioned. Perhaps these prejudices you mention are coming from the man in the mirror?

It's in the OP. Perhaps you missed it. Could be a glance in your own mirror might be in order.
 
It's in the OP. Perhaps you missed it. Could be a glance in your own mirror might be in order.

Right, and only those who support voter ID laws keep bringing it up. The rest of us talk about the poor.
 
Polling stations are designed to be in every precinct. The DMV is not.

So, while there may be exceptions, most of the time you should expect to find a polling station nearby. You shouldn't expect the same of a DMV office.

But rural precincts may see a 20 mile commute to the polling station. A rural precinct may see a 20 mile commute to a grocery store. Private transportation or some kind of arrangement is all but required for rural living.
 
Right, and only those who support voter ID laws keep bringing it up. The rest of us talk about the poor.

No, the charge from the left is that Voter ID laws are racist. I commented about the view of the poor being pushed by the left. It's not good, and I wondered why the left demonstrated that.
 
That's actually a great point, and something I agree with. I've read a little about Canada, and something like 93% of eligible voters are registered, and that's usually automatically updated with each move, the dead automatically removed, etc. I'd support that kind of system 100%, and if efforts like in Canada and as you suggest were paired with new Photo ID requirements, I'd support Photo IDas an acceptable cost to a sane registration and voting system in the U.S.

As is we have 50 little fiefdoms where partisans on both sides try to set the rules up for partisan advantage. And the GOP has an advantage in low turnout elections, and when fewer people are registered to vote. It's just demographics. So the GOP opposes same day registration, favors shorter early voting hours (preferably only during business hours during the week), and stricter ID requirements that happen to disadvantage poor urban minorities who skew democratic. Obviously the democrats want registration to be approaching 100% of eligible voters, easy, and generous early voting, a national holiday to vote, or voting on weekends (even better).

I don't know how it's done in the US, but here in Canada registration is mostly done through the Canada Revenue Agency, the equivalent of your IRS. On our tax forms, there's a check box for passing your personal information -name/address/age - to Elections Canada, the agency that oversees elections throughout the country. Elections Canada then shares the information with your Province's election agency and your city's municipal election agency and simply by checking off this box on your tax form, you get registered everywhere you have the ability to vote. Then, before each election, you're sent a registration card that tells you when the election is, where your polling booth is, and what ID you have to bring with you when you go to vote. As such, a photo ID isn't absolutely necessary as long as you have the registration card with your address on it and you can produce a utility bill or some other government bill/document with your name and address on it.

Everyone of voting age here in Canada should fill out a tax return, even if income is zero, because the person may be eligible for sales tax credits and other income determined grants as well as the ability to average out income from previous and future years.

It may seem a little intrusive for some and perhaps not kosher with the conservative/libertarian types in the US, but this conservative has no problem with it because its a key to why we want to have any form of government in the first place. If government can't adequately run elections, why the hell have government.
 
Usually polling stations are in your community. Places where you get an ID are not.

The obvious question after your comment is, why not? Why not have places to get ID in every community, at least in every place where you can get a driver's license? Here in Ontario, Canada, we've contracted out this driver's license/health card/ID card, business to private enterprises with the requirement to set up numerous offices all over the Province - I can walk to the one closest to me.

Reduces the cost to the taxpayer, gets government business closer to the people, and I've never had any problem with them and haven't heard of anyone else who has. So, tell me, what's keeping the largest economy, second largest democracy in the world, from doing such a simple thing?
 
Polling stations are designed to be in every precinct. The DMV is not.

So, while there may be exceptions, most of the time you should expect to find a polling station nearby. You shouldn't expect the same of a DMV office.

And yet, they are everywhere. Where exactly are these communities where the closest DMV (BMV where I live) is 100 miles away? Got any verifiable examples?
 
Not if her name was not on the voter rolls. They check it off before they hand you a ballot.

If her name was there and it wasn't supposed to be, the person having ID wouldn't fix anything.

So anybody with enough money and the desire to game the system (like, oh I don't know, the Democratic and Republican parties) just needs to get a fake ID for a dead person and bingo, send someone in to vote with said fake ID.

Requiring ID would not stop it.
 
The obvious question after your comment is, why not? Why not have places to get ID in every community, at least in every place where you can get a driver's license? Here in Ontario, Canada, we've contracted out this driver's license/health card/ID card, business to private enterprises with the requirement to set up numerous offices all over the Province - I can walk to the one closest to me.

Reduces the cost to the taxpayer, gets government business closer to the people, and I've never had any problem with them and haven't heard of anyone else who has. So, tell me, what's keeping the largest economy, second largest democracy in the world, from doing such a simple thing?
Nothing. It's a bull**** story. License bureaus are everywhere.
 
It is a fact because you say so! Illogical reasoning at its zenith.

*read, but omitted to get under character limit*

I've read them, which is in part why I know what is in them, and why they do not reach as far as you portray them here. I read them, which is why I knew there were facts and a judge's opinion of what those facts say, what those facts do, what those facts accomplish, how those facts operate, and admittedly I knew it was likely you'd confuse the difference between facts and a judge's interpretation of them, a judge's reading of them, a judge's opinion of them, which you did. The error has always been with your argument and calling people liars, lazy, etcetera, doesn't diminish the innumerable reasoning errors in your posts.
Another word fort trying to play semantic word games. My favorite part is your complete lack of understanding of the definition of the word "likely". Only in your world does the word "likely" means someone believes the opposite of what the say, despite the overwhelming evidence of context proving what they mean. Unreal how you are continuing to twist and bastardize the English language because of your intense refusal to admit you were wrong.

You didn't read the links. This is all but certain. You asked for examples, I gave them to you. Now you're left to playing the "well he could have meant this" card, when he clearly did not mean that because he said he did not mean that. He further went on to note the FACTS I related to you, facts which are not "because someone said so", but rather facts which anyone who lives in reality recognize as facts.

At the end of the day, this law disproportionately affects low income voters (which, when combined with the disproportionate number of minorities who are low income, is the reason the law was struck down), not because I or a judge said so, but because census data, maps, math and other non-opinionated FACTS say so. I understand you don't understand the meanings of words. I get you don't understand how $100 means a lot more to a poor person than a rich person (percentages are harder for some people, I guess). And I know geography seems to be difficult for you. But at the end of the day, I have MORE than proven my position this disproportionately affects low income voters and have also more than refuted your ridiculous assertion of "because someone said so". I mean, for goodness sake, even the state's own attorneys didn't argue it wasn't a burden, only that it wasn't a "severe" burden. Hell, they even tried to use the fact it was a burden on poor people as part of their case!

Verdict said:
Significantly, Texas disputes none of the facts underlying this conclusion—not the $22 cost for a birth certificate, not the distance between DPS offices, not the poverty rates for minorities in Texas, not the disproportionate vehicle access rates. Instead, in a hodgepodge of arguments, Texas seeks to downplay SB 14’s impact, contending, in essence, that the law’s retrogressive effect will not be particularly severe

...

This brings us to Texas’s second—and primary—argument. Relying on the literal language of section 5, which prohibits states from “ denying or abridging the right to vote on account of race or color,” or “ because [a voter] is a member of a language minority group, ” 42 U.S.C.§§1973c(a), 1973b(f)(2) (emphasis added), Texas argues: The “effects” prong of section 5 does not extend to laws that merely have a disparate impact on the races. It allows courts to deny preclearance only if the effect of SB 14 is to deny or
abridge the right to vote “on account of ” race or color, or “because of ”one’s membership in a language minority group.52 Texas Proposed Findings, ECF No. 202 at 44.

According to Texas, if SB 14 denies or abridges the right to vote at all, it does so “on account of” factors like poverty or lack of vehicular access. To be sure, these factors may correlate with racial minority status, but because disenfranchisement is proximately caused by something other than race, Texas contends, this court may not deny preclearance under section 5’s effect element.

Even the people trying to pass the law agree these are facts. For crying out loud, they tried to use it as their argument, that the burdens felt would be felt by poor people (instead of minorities)! And yet you're still trying to say they are not facts, because you simply can't admit you were wrong. That's rather sad and a little disturbing.

You can try and pretend facts aren't facts because you don't understand the word "likely" is a word related to probability and because an absolute is never guaranteed. But we both know your original position was wrong. All you are doing now is trying to salvage some ridiculous notion of Internet ego, by posting asinine statements I doubt even you believe. Certainly the state of Texas doesn't believe it, because they were arguing the very thing you claim to not be fact.
"Lost"? I didn't know we were playing a game.
Who said anything about a game. We were having a debate. You've lost.

The OP was about racism. My first post to you was asking about the cost of the IDs.
Who cares? You asked me what it had to do with racism, a question I had already answered in my first post of the thread. That's why I told you to read the thread. It's one thing to shut your eyes to the obvious reality around you, but could you at least remember your own words? It sure would make things so much easier.
 
If her name was there and it wasn't supposed to be, the person having ID wouldn't fix anything.

So anybody with enough money and the desire to game the system (like, oh I don't know, the Democratic and Republican parties) just needs to get a fake ID for a dead person and bingo, send someone in to vote with said fake ID.

Requiring ID would not stop it.

However with a voter ID bill, especially one requiring a valid photo ID, one would have to get a fake drivers license or state ID to go with that fraudulent registration. Not an easy feat with the trend of states going with holographic drivers licenses and ID cards. Voter ID seriously adds to the risk of a felony conviction...whereas just slipping in and verbally identifying yourself as the person with the fraudulent registration and slipping out is not that much of a risk. And many such fraudulent voters show up at several different polling places. Not near as many will risk a felony if they have to show a valid ID. That's the point of Voter ID bills. Nobody is suggesting it will stop all fraudulent voters, however it will stop a considerable chunk of them.
 
Another word fort trying to play semantic word games. My favorite part is your complete lack of understanding of the definition of the word "likely". Only in your world does the word "likely" means someone believes the opposite of what the say, despite the overwhelming evidence of context proving what they mean. Unreal how you are continuing to twist and bastardize the English language because of your intense refusal to admit you were wrong.

You didn't read the links. This is all but certain. You asked for examples, I gave them to you. Now you're left to playing the "well he could have meant this" card, when he clearly did not mean that because he said he did not mean that. He further went on to note the FACTS I related to you, facts which are not "because someone said so", but rather facts which anyone who lives in reality recognize as facts.

At the end of the day, this law disproportionately affects low income voters (which, when combined with the disproportionate number of minorities who are low income, is the reason the law was struck down), not because I or a judge said so, but because census data, maps, math and other non-opinionated FACTS say so. I understand you don't understand the meanings of words. I get you don't understand how $100 means a lot more to a poor person than a rich person (percentages are harder for some people, I guess). And I know geography seems to be difficult for you. But at the end of the day, I have MORE than proven my position this disproportionately affects low income voters and have also more than refuted your ridiculous assertion of "because someone said so". I mean, for goodness sake, even the state's own attorneys didn't argue it wasn't a burden, only that it wasn't a "severe" burden. Hell, they even tried to use the fact it was a burden on poor people as part of their case!



Even the people trying to pass the law agree these are facts. For crying out loud, they tried to use it as their argument, that the burdens felt would be felt by poor people (instead of minorities)! And yet you're still trying to say they are not facts, because you simply can't admit you were wrong. That's rather sad and a little disturbing.

You can try and pretend facts aren't facts because you don't understand the word "likely" is a word related to probability and because an absolute is never guaranteed. But we both know your original position was wrong. All you are doing now is trying to salvage some ridiculous notion of Internet ego, by posting asinine statements I doubt even you believe. Certainly the state of Texas doesn't believe it, because they were arguing the very thing you claim to not be fact.
Who said anything about a game. We were having a debate. You've lost.


Who cares? You asked me what it had to do with racism, a question I had already answered in my first post of the thread. That's why I told you to read the thread. It's one thing to shut your eyes to the obvious reality around you, but could you at least remember your own words? It sure would make things so much easier.

I admire your undaunted effort to defend your nonsense with more nonsense. I especially enjoyed the fact it took so many words to defend your nonsense.

None of what you said changes what you did, which was to treat a specific portion of the decision as a "fact" when it is clear there weren't any facts just the judges opinion and a statement not of any fact at all.

Then you ignore, blissfully, the meaning of the word "likely" and treat the judges statement using the word "likely" as a fact, indeed you converted it into a fact on nothing more than you said so.

I swear it is easy to confuse your arguments with the comic section of the newspaper.
 
Polling stations are designed to be in every precinct. The DMV is not.

So, while there may be exceptions, most of the time you should expect to find a polling station nearby. You shouldn't expect the same of a DMV office.

Yet, "nearby" polling station requires many if not most voters, perhaps a vast majority of them to travel to the polling station by a means other than walking.
 
But rural precincts may see a 20 mile commute to the polling station. A rural precinct may see a 20 mile commute to a grocery store. Private transportation or some kind of arrangement is all but required for rural living.

A point brought to his attention previously in this thread.
 
However with a voter ID bill, especially one requiring a valid photo ID, one would have to get a fake drivers license or state ID to go with that fraudulent registration. Not an easy feat with the trend of states going with holographic drivers licenses and ID cards. Voter ID seriously adds to the risk of a felony conviction...whereas just slipping in and verbally identifying yourself as the person with the fraudulent registration and slipping out is not that much of a risk. And many such fraudulent voters show up at several different polling places. Not near as many will risk a felony if they have to show a valid ID. That's the point of Voter ID bills. Nobody is suggesting it will stop all fraudulent voters, however it will stop a considerable chunk of them.

It would stop the casual ones, but any organization willing to put the effort in could do it. I don't think it's a big deal to require the ID, I just think that it would almost certainly not have the effect that you'd want it to.

I don't trust the 1 party effort of either party. The efforts here by the GOP are really just to try to tip the scales in their favor, not to "protect the vote" or anything like that.
 
The obvious question after your comment is, why not? Why not have places to get ID in every community, at least in every place where you can get a driver's license? Here in Ontario, Canada, we've contracted out this driver's license/health card/ID card, business to private enterprises with the requirement to set up numerous offices all over the Province - I can walk to the one closest to me.

Reduces the cost to the taxpayer, gets government business closer to the people, and I've never had any problem with them and haven't heard of anyone else who has. So, tell me, what's keeping the largest economy, second largest democracy in the world, from doing such a simple thing?

To a point that is done in the US with some state and federal government functions as well. When I was in California for instance I could go to the local AAA Auto Club to register automobiles. Even here in the south, I can find some grocery stores that also serve as official post offices. The liberals in the US don't like it because they want unionized workers to get those jobs.
 
To a point that is done in the US with some state and federal government functions as well. When I was in California for instance I could go to the local AAA Auto Club to register automobiles. Even here in the south, I can find some grocery stores that also serve as official post offices. The liberals in the US don't like it because they want unionized workers to get those jobs.

That's an excellent point - the unionization of public services is of a higher priority to some than the actual public services available.
 
It would stop the casual ones, but any organization willing to put the effort in could do it. I don't think it's a big deal to require the ID, I just think that it would almost certainly not have the effect that you'd want it to.

I don't trust the 1 party effort of either party. The efforts here by the GOP are really just to try to tip the scales in their favor, not to "protect the vote" or anything like that.

Not that long ago it was not a big deal to acquire a phony ID. It is now in most states. A holographic ID is a very big deal to counterfeit. And again, there is a lot more risk of getting caught. Not many are going to risk their own picture on a counterfeit drivers license or state ID card just to steal a few votes.
 
What do passport fees have to do with voter ID?
Passports are accepted ID to vote, and those against voter ID claim that fees to get an ID are what disenfranchise the poor.

Are you even paying any attention to this thread or what?
 
You're determined to miss the point on travel costs, so I'll let that go.
Walking to the poll is free. That's the "travel cost": free. Take a cab and maybe it's a $10 fair, probably less for such a short trip.

Someone in the hospital probably has more serious problems than voting. It's OK to pass rules that make it harder for them to vote, to solve a non-problem?
:prof The medical insurance card Obama requires that person to have counts as non photo ID for voting.
 
Passports are accepted ID to vote, and those against voter ID claim that fees to get an ID are what disenfranchise the poor.

Are you even paying any attention to this thread or what?
It's a stupid argument.why would someone pay a couple hundred bucks for a passport, when they could simply buy an ID card for 5 or 10 bucks?
 
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