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If there had not been a War on Terror or a War in Iraq...

If the current wars had never happened, would Spain and the UK have gotten hit?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 20.5%
  • No

    Votes: 20 51.3%
  • No, but America would have gotten attacked again.

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • :shrug:

    Votes: 5 12.8%

  • Total voters
    39

Gandhi>Bush

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If there had not been a War on Terror or a War in Iraq, do you think the attacks in Spain and the UK would have happened?
 

Arch Enemy

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I don't believe that UK or Spain would have gotten hit if the Iraqi War didn't happen. If you notice, France and Russia haven't been hit yet. Thats becasue they were smart and stayed out of this war.
 

KevinWan

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I would have to say that Spain most likely would not have gotten hit. However, the UK may have gotten hit regardless of its involvement in Iraq. Terrorists hate Western society, and the UK is near the center in crafting Western society. Spain is not a leader in Western society, so Iraq was likely the only motivation in that sitation. Iraq may have held a factor in the motivation of the terrorists in the UK. However, by avoiding nations that are breeding grounds for terror, and not imposing prosperity amongst them (as is the UK and US) would only lead to a mass of terror that would force all of us to conform our lives to the wishes of the terrorists... only trying to avoid an attack. This clearly is not good.

Now, why I feel Iraq is a just war, despite the fact that (in the SHORT TERM) it may increase the likelyness of terror at home:
Let's look at what makes a terrorist: many terrorists on the ground, who commit these acts (not orchistrate them like binLAden) live in deplorable conditions. Their lives basically suck. Their families are starving. IF a terror recruiter comes up to your average Saddam-regime Iraqi or Palestinian or other opressed Muslim and offers a perverted form of Islam, saying that by blowing urself up ALLAH will award you and your family with prosperity. If your life sucks, you pretty much buy into this. In IRaq, IF all turns out good in Iraq and democracy takes hold, then with that will come nations wishing to trade with the nation etc.. This will bring employment and prosperity to the people, hence ending their suseptibility to becoming terrorists becomes their lives arent so sucky. In the short term, terrorists may be trying to destroy a democratic Iraq, and hence leading to more terror. We must persist in destroying them and go on to form more democratic governmetns across the terror-ground that is the Middle EAst. By not involving ourselves terror will only grow bigger in the middle east and seak to control us more, through terror. By acting now, and perhaps sacrifices a few terror attacks, in the long term we all can live in peace. This IS A WAR, and although the deaths of people at home is unfortunate, it is a noble sacrifice to future generation to have a world safe for freedom.
 

Schweddy

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I went for the "I dunno".
Would it had been any less significant for it to happen in London or Spain first?
The next question, are they less significant than 9/11?
 

Fantasea

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How many terrorist attacks have there been which occurred prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom? World-wide, they number in the hundreds; add Israel/Palestine and it's probably more than a thouand.

The 'war' was declared generations ago and is being waged by a relatively small number terrorists, who claim to be acting in the name of Islam, against all 'infidels'.

It is only through the sub-rosa support and financing that terrorists receive from governments, sympathetic to them for obvious reasons, that they are able to continue.

When it becomes economically or politically unwise for governments to continue to support terror, the terror will stop.
 

akyron

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Arch Enemy said:
France and Russia haven't been hit yet.
Why would they? France is practically an arab country they way they were supporting Saddam. They were both supporting Saddam under the table and provided the means for the oil for food hooplah. It isnt rational to crack your golden goose or geese as the case may be.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Fantasea:
When it becomes economically or politically unwise for governments to continue to support terror, the terror will stop.
Terror can only begin to stop, when we stop exporting our own version of it around the world.
 

Fantasea

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Billo_Really said:
Terror can only begin to stop, when we stop exporting our own version of it around the world.
It would seem that lone brain cell you mentioned earlier hasn't found a companion yet.
 
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Absolutley. Terror cells have been in place for a long time. They would have striked anyway they just simply chose an opportune moment to influence Spanish politics.
 

superskippy

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If you notice, France and Russia haven't been hit yet. Thats becasue they were smart and stayed out of this war.

Russia is hit almost once a month, who do you think the Chechen suicide bombers are? Islamic extremist's many of which have come from Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia to make Jihad. The Russians have suffered thousand's of dead, remember the hostage crisis at Beslan? Hundreds of children killed. In case you did not know the Chechens are muslim's and have wide terror support from jihadist's in muslim nations.

In 2001 there was an attempted truck bombing in Paris, luckily it was foiled early.

Everyone is a target, it is an open war.
 

nkgupta80

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Just to point out, I learned that there are a lot more attacks from various parties that are foiled or not publicized. We never hear about the attacks that were prevented. We don't give a country's security enough credit.
 

ban.the.electoral.college

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I tend to think along the same line as Noam Chomsky, and Billo Really on this topic.

However, I think it's more complicated than that at this point. I think it's going to take a godsend for us to save face. Were going to have to work hard to show this world that we give a d a m n about anything besides p r o f i t ...
 

SKILMATIC

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Were going to have to work hard to show this world that we give a d a m n about anything besides p r o f i t ...
As much as I think this statement is right, theres no way we will ever give more of a dam than something else than making money. And the same goes for every other country. This world revolves around money and thats all this world is about. Thats a fact.

But to tell you plainly, the terrorists would have attacked spain and GB eventually. Mabe not as soon but eventually. This thread is more speculation than anything else. So I would venture to say this discussion is meaningless. We should be debating more meaningful topics that actually have to do with whats going on.
 

ban.the.electoral.college

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SKILMATIC said:
As much as I think this statement is right, theres no way we will ever give more of a dam than something else than making money. And the same goes for every other country. This world revolves around money and thats all this world is about. Thats a fact.

But to tell you plainly, the terrorists would have attacked spain and GB eventually. Mabe not as soon but eventually. This thread is more speculation than anything else. So I would venture to say this discussion is meaningless. We should be debating more meaningful topics that actually have to do with whats going on.
the road of profit leads to greed. there is another way.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by SKILMATIC
As much as I think this statement is right, theres no way we will ever give more of a dam than something else than making money. And the same goes for every other country. This world revolves around money and thats all this world is about. Thats a fact.
I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. But I'm also not going to say that it isn't true. [Was that a double-negative I just used?]

Go to the "Not the Fox News" thread and read the first post. It's regarding an average Iraqi reacting to the new, TV news program in Iraq, formatted in the American capitolist style.
 

akyron

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akyron said:
Why would they? France is practically an arab country they way they were supporting Saddam. They were both supporting Saddam under the table and provided the means for the oil for food hooplah. It isnt rational to crack your golden goose or geese as the case may be.

On the other hand they have a few christians,jews, and non-muslims so they are as good a target as anyone.


I apologize for inadvertently ascribing rational to religious fanatics.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Fantasea said:
It would seem that lone brain cell you mentioned earlier hasn't found a companion yet.
[mod mode]
Give the ad hom thing a rest. If you want to debate, then debate.
If you want to explore you personal feelings for Billo take it to The Basement where you two can engage in a mutual exploration of your feelings for one another where the rest of us don't have to watch.
[/mod mode]
 

Simon W. Moon

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Fantasea said:
How many terrorist attacks have there been which occurred prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom? World-wide, they number in the hundreds; add Israel/Palestine and it's probably more than a thouand.
If you go here you can see for yourself:
http://tkb.org/Home.jsp
Tho' I think theire data only goes back to '68.

Fantasea said:
It is only through the sub-rosa support and financing that terrorists receive from governments, sympathetic to them for obvious reasons, that they are able to continue.
While this has been true in the past for a number of groups, it's not clear that this is necessarily the case for many groups now.
Take for example the London bombers that were cited in the OP. AFAIK, they weren't supported by a govt under the rose or otherwise.
The estimated expenses of the Madrid bombers were in the tens of thousands. Certainly well within the means of a handful of determined individuals.
 
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Simon W. Moon

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I voted the little shrugging guy.

There're just way too many variables for me to even get a good idea of which way to guess.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Heres a graph of the various terrorist incidents worldwide:




 

MSgt

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I picked the third one.

You cannot win a war if you do not fight, and you cannot win a peace through inattention. In peace and war, the American and world response to the violent extremism that so damages the Islamic world has been as halting and reactive as it has been reluctant. We simply did not want to get involved more deeply than necessary, but Muslim extremists and their millions of cheerleaders were and still are determined to remain involved with us. Up until 9/11, America had appeased these people and refused to acknowledge their failing civilization and their mounting temper tantrums that had caused scores of deaths for a false sense of security and peace. For decades we have downplayed—or simply ignored—the hate-filled speech directed toward us, the monstrous lessons taught by extremists to children Citizens of the U.K. blame America for their attack. I'm sure they would rather go back in time before Iraq and Afghanistan when terrorism was tolerable as long as America solely took the attacks as we always did. Our stirring the pot has only revealed the criminality that already existed and the desperation of their tactics to kill civilians to pressure their governments to turn their backs on America. Everyone that has done it, has given them a small victory. This is more of that false peace.

France and Russia have not decided to stay out of it. They have simply decided to let them do whatever they want just so as long as they don't go too far. Of course we can measure what "too far" is to the French just by looking at their valor against the spread of Nazism. As far as Russia...well they have Middle Eastern business to tend to don't they?

Also...are we supposed to shake with anxiety because of some minor attacks in England and in Spain? Let's put things into perspective here....over two million people were slaughtered in the Sudan in under a ten year period through the 90's by Islamic extremists. These Sudanese did not offer America any allegiance, they didn't offer Israel any defense, and they didn't send troops to fight in an "American" war. Their crime? - They were Christian. People can condemn our actions in Iraq and in Afghanistan all they want, but refusing to acknowledge this growing threat for fear of angering these extremists, is suicide.
 

MSgt

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Simon W. Moon said:
Heres a graph of the various terrorist incidents worldwide:





How interesting that your graph shows that the Middle East has far outweighed the rest of the world. Note that this Islamic sponsered violence is committed on their own people because instead of oppression, they have chosen a freer and more equal society. It is punishment. It's a Pity that the worst blasphemers of Islam are they themselves and they can't see it. The extremists' god must be proud.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon:
Give the ad hom thing a rest. If you want to debate, then debate.
If you want to explore you personal feelings for Billo take it to The Basement where you two can engage in a mutual exploration of your feelings for one another where the rest of us don't have to watch.
I thought I was debating. Maybe I'm just getting paranoid.
 
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Arch Enemy said:
I don't believe that UK or Spain would have gotten hit if the Iraqi War didn't happen. If you notice, France and Russia haven't been hit yet. Thats becasue they were smart and stayed out of this war.
What about the 100's of Russian school children killed by extremist muslim terrorists? Come on man, they don't need any incentive to murder innocent people, a fact which they've made perfectly clear. Their's isn't a war against nations but rather they see it as a religous war against them and the infidels and a quest for a pan-islamic empire, wake up.
 
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