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If the truth was discovered

Read question below.

  • Yes I would burn it.

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • No, I would admit that I am wrong and conform.

    Votes: 7 63.6%

  • Total voters
    11

kamino

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Silverdale, Wa.
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If you found a document from the forefathers that absolutely defined the constitution and its meaning, but it was different from your political views, would you burn it?
 
When i think of the founding fathers i think of Thomas Jefferson he is America he was the brain of America flawed as everyman is but without him you can forget everything.
 
First of all, I'm not sure how it would matter either way. There are countless sources from numerous founding fathers that explain what the constitution means. Their thought processes before and during the drafting of the document can even be read in many circumstances. From the Federalist Papers to personal letters to their own memoirs and everything in between, it's easy to determine, in many cases, what individual founders were thought about the constitution, either in its entirety, with reference to specific sections, or both. Unfortunately, people draw from those sources only when it supports their agenda and ignore those sources when it doesn't.

Even if that were not the case though, I would never burn any historical document I came across, even if it I thought it would be harmful my interests.
 
When i think of the founding fathers i think of Thomas Jefferson he is America he was the brain of America flawed as everyman is but without him you can forget everything.

This makes little sense.
... and I mean that literally.
Are you ripping on T Jeffersson?

Also, I agree with Curious George.

First of all, I'm not sure how it would matter either way. There are countless sources from numerous founding fathers that explain what the constitution means. Their thought processes before and during the drafting of the document can even be read in many circumstances. From the Federalist Papers to personal letters to their own memoirs and everything in between, it's easy to determine, in many cases, what individual founders were thought about the constitution, either in its entirety, with reference to specific sections, or both.
 
Btw, I didn't vote in the poll because the options that are available do not apply to me. I wouldn't burn any historical document and it's unlikely that I'd have to admit I was wrong about something (since I rarely argue over what the founding fathers thought or intended) or that I'd choose to conform my opinion to what was in the document (unless the document contained a very good argument for why I should do so).
 
Probably neither. Who says I have to believe the same thing that the Founding Fathers believed? Where is it explicitly written that our Constitution is always supposed to be interpreted with the original intent in mind? That is only one of many legal philosophies.
 
Probably neither. Who says I have to believe the same thing that the Founding Fathers believed? Where is it explicitly written that our Constitution is always supposed to be interpreted with the original intent in mind? That is only one of many legal philosophies.

The "interpretation" of legal documents is something I find to be very dangerous. The idea that a perfectly understandable sentence can be "interpreted" to mean something completely different from its literal meaning has gotten us into a lot of trouble in this country. This practice has led (and continues to lead) to the erosion of our guaranteed rights and freedoms. If black can be interpreted to mean white and white can be interpreted to mean black so long as we have enough votes or a judge with the right political leanings, why even write anything down in the first place?

I don't think that's what you were saying but I thought I'd make my feelings on that known anyway. It's a particular pet peeve of mine.
 
The "interpretation" of legal documents is something I find to be very dangerous. The idea that a perfectly understandable sentence can be "interpreted" to mean something completely different from its literal meaning has gotten us into a lot of trouble in this country. This practice has led (and continues to lead) to the erosion of our guaranteed rights and freedoms. If black can be interpreted to mean white and white can be interpreted to mean black so long as we have enough votes or a judge with the right political leanings, why even write anything down in the first place?

I don't think that's what you were saying but I thought I'd make my feelings on that known anyway. It's a particular pet peeve of mine.

Again, you are stating my thoughts exactly.

Can I hire you to be my spokesman? :lol:
 
The "interpretation" of legal documents is something I find to be very dangerous. The idea that a perfectly understandable sentence can be "interpreted" to mean something completely different from its literal meaning has gotten us into a lot of trouble in this country.

What is "perfectly understandable" to you might not be perfectly understandable to someone else. For example, the Second Amendment includes the qualifier about "a well-regulated militia." The amendment is very poorly written and the grammar is atrocious (even for the 18th century). Interpreting it isn't exactly a no-brainer.

Another example: Throughout Article II of the Constitution, the president is referred to as "he." Is this pronoun being used in the masculine sense or the neutered sense? If we're going by original intent, I would have to assume it is the former.

Another example: The president can (and shall) be impeached for "high crimes and misdemeanors." Jaywalking is a misdemeanor. Smoking in a public building is a misdemeanor. Should the president be impeached for these offenses?



Curious George said:
This practice has led (and continues to lead) to the erosion of our guaranteed rights and freedoms. If black can be interpreted to mean white and white can be interpreted to mean black so long as we have enough votes or a judge with the right political leanings, why even write anything down in the first place?

I'm not suggesting that "free speech" be interpreted to mean "no free speech." But the Constitution is intentionally vague, and for good reason. Many people who claim to support a strict interpretation are the same people who would like to pretend that the Ninth Amendment simply does not exist.

I have a difficult time reconciling the Ninth Amendment with any attempt to derive the "original intent" of the Constitution.
 
Not to mention that the founding fathers didn't have opinions on many problems we have today, because they didn't exist in 18th century. The FCC regulates our ability to broadcast television and radio in this country. How free speech intertwines with such issues is impossible to look to the founders for guidance. Furthermore, who even says the founders are always right? They certainly managed to set up an amazing system of government, but they also were slave owners, occasionally genocidal to the natives, and treated women as second class citizens. The past certainly provides important information that we can use today, but its not the solution to all our problems. The 2nd amendment issues will never be resolved by finding some historical document, as weapons have changed to much in the intervening years.
 
I don't know what "conforming" is supposed to mean, it's really irrelevant what the Founding Fathers thought about the Constitution, it was designed to be a living document and can, and indeed, must change over time. What a bunch of guys who wrote it almost 250 years ago is really irrelevant, it's only what it means today that matters.
 
What? Something like this?

The Northwest Ordinance: passed unanimously by the Congress of the Confederation in 1787:

page3.jpg



Article 3: Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them.​

I don't want to even get in to the original State Constitutions, because that may be too much for some to bear.:2razz:
 
Btw, I didn't vote in the poll because the options that are available do not apply to me. I wouldn't burn any historical document and it's unlikely that I'd have to admit I was wrong about something (since I rarely argue over what the founding fathers thought or intended) or that I'd choose to conform my opinion to what was in the document (unless the document contained a very good argument for why I should do so).

Agreed.
Why do these polls never have deceint options? :(
 
I don't know what "conforming" is supposed to mean, it's really irrelevant what the Founding Fathers thought about the Constitution, it was designed to be a living document and can, and indeed, must change over time. What a bunch of guys who wrote it almost 250 years ago is really irrelevant, it's only what it means today that matters.


That viewpoint is one that leads to putting Judges on the bench who interpret the Constitution and rule in a way that satisfies the whims of Societal fads, rather than letting political decisions they're handling be decided by the legislature.

This perpetuates the leftist: lose in the legislature then shop it to a friendly judge routine & is a corruption of the system IMO.
 
That viewpoint is one that leads to putting Judges on the bench who interpret the Constitution and rule in a way that satisfies the whims of Societal fads, rather than letting political decisions they're handling be decided by the legislature.

This perpetuates the leftist: lose in the legislature then shop it to a friendly judge routine & is a corruption of the system IMO.

Dude, things change.
We're an evolving society.
The FFs believed in slavery. They didn't believe that women or blacks were even fully human. Next month, one of the two will sit in the White house and lead this nation.
How can you suggest a rigid adherence to the beliefs of the Founding Fathers is appropriate?

:confused:
 
Dude, things change.
We're an evolving society.
The FFs believed in slavery. They didn't believe that women or blacks were even fully human. Next month, one of the two will sit in the White house and lead this nation.
How can you suggest a rigid adherence to the beliefs of the Founding Fathers is appropriate?

Societies may evolve but the ideals laid down in the Constitution will never change. Freedom is freedom, individuality is individuality, law is law. The Founding Fathers understood that things would change, hence the inclusion of an Amendment process.
 
Societies may evolve but the ideals laid down in the Constitution will never change. Freedom is freedom, individuality is individuality, law is law. The Founding Fathers understood that things would change, hence the inclusion of an Amendment process.


10x thank you.
 
If you found a document from the forefathers that absolutely defined the constitution and its meaning, but it was different from your political views, would you burn it?

I'd torch that sucker in a heartbeat.

Not so that "my side" didn't lose, but because the constant bitching and kvetching about what, exactly, the constitution means in its particulars is part of what has made this country great (and funny).
 
What is "perfectly understandable" to you might not be perfectly understandable to someone else. For example, the Second Amendment includes the qualifier about "a well-regulated militia." The amendment is very poorly written and the grammar is atrocious (even for the 18th century). Interpreting it isn't exactly a no-brainer.

Another example: Throughout Article II of the Constitution, the president is referred to as "he." Is this pronoun being used in the masculine sense or the neutered sense? If we're going by original intent, I would have to assume it is the former.

Another example: The president can (and shall) be impeached for "high crimes and misdemeanors." Jaywalking is a misdemeanor. Smoking in a public building is a misdemeanor. Should the president be impeached for these offenses?





I'm not suggesting that "free speech" be interpreted to mean "no free speech." But the Constitution is intentionally vague, and for good reason. Many people who claim to support a strict interpretation are the same people who would like to pretend that the Ninth Amendment simply does not exist.

I have a difficult time reconciling the Ninth Amendment with any attempt to derive the "original intent" of the Constitution.

High Crimes and Misdemeanors is a PHRASE... it is not

1. High Crimes
and
2. Misdemeanors

High Crimes and Misdemeanors refers to "High" crimes Against the State.

High Misdemeanor is a term that derived from old English Law:

a number of positive misprisions, neglects and contempts. The most important example being that of maladministration in high office.

High misdemeanor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So no, understanding this, your example is not open to interpretations. Bill Clinton was guilty of this due to lying under oath, which even then, used to mean violation of one's oath.

Meaning of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"

Also, a Well Regulated Militia is PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE as well ;)

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Second Amendment

Being necessarry to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed in order to maintain a well regulated militia.

Easy.



A Well-Regulated Militia: The Founding Fathers and the Origins of Gun Control in America by Saul Cornell ? Here is a description.

Description
Americans are deeply divided over the Second Amendment. Some passionately assert that the Amendment protects an individual's right to own guns. Others, that it does no more than protect the right of states to maintain militias. Now, in the first and only comprehensive history of this bitter controversy, Saul Cornell proves conclusively that both sides are wrong.

Cornell, a leading constitutional historian, shows that the Founders understood the right to bear arms as neither an individual nor a collective right, but as a civic right-- an obligation citizens owed to the state to arm themselves so that they could participate in a well regulated militia.

He shows how the modern "collective right" view of the Second Amendment, the one federal courts have accepted for over a hundred years, owes more to the Anti-Federalists than the Founders.

Likewise, the modern "individual right" view emerged only in the nineteenth century. The modern debate, Cornell reveals, has its roots in the nineteenth century, during America's first and now largely forgotten gun violence crisis, when the earliest gun control laws were passed and the first cases on the right to bear arms came before the courts.

Equally important, he describes how the gun control battle took on a new urgency during Reconstruction, when Republicans and Democrats clashed over the meaning of the right to bear arms and its connection to the Fourteenth Amendment. When the Democrats defeated the Republicans, it elevated the "collective rights" theory to preeminence and set the terms for constitutional debate over this issue for the next century.


Oxford University Press: A Well-Regulated Militia: Saul Cornell




This is almost exactly what I have been saying here for a long time about the Founders too... and this is a post that was ignored.

English history made two things clear to the American revolutionaries: force of arms was the only effective check on government, and standing armies threatened liberty. Recognition of these premises meant that the force of arms necessary to check government had to be placed in the hands of citizens. The English theorists Blackstone and Harrington advocated these tenants. Because the public purpose of the right to keep arms was to check government, the right necessarily belonged to the individual and, as a matter of theory, was thought to be absolute in that it could not be abrogated by the prevailing rulers.

These views were adopted by the framers, both Federalists and Antifederalists. Neither group trusted government. Both believed the greatest danger to the new republic was tyrannical government and that the ultimate check on tyranny was an armed population. It is beyond dispute that the second amendment right was to serve the same public purpose as advocated by the English theorists. The check on all government, not simply the federal government, was the armed population, the militia. Government would not be accorded the power to create a select militia since such a body would become the government's instrument. The whole of the population would comprise the militia. As the constitutional debates prove, the framers recognized that the common public purpose of preserving freedom would be served by protecting each individual's right to arms, thus empowering the people to resist tyranny and preserve the republic. The intent was not to create a right for other (p.1039)governments, the individual states; it was to preserve the people's right to a free state, just as it says.


Valparaiso Univ. Law Review

Valparaiso University Law Review


"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important." --Thomas Jefferson, 1803.

"[The] governor [is] constitutionally the commander of the militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms." --Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811.



the Second Amendment does not apply to individuals; rather, it merely recognizes the right of a state to arm its militia. This “states’ rights” or “collective rights” interpretation of the Second Amendment has been embraced by several of our sister circuits. The government commended the states’ rights view of the Second Amendment to the district court, urging that the Second Amendment does not apply to individual citizens.

USA v. Emerson (5th Cir. 2001)


The US Constitution is specific.
It is layed out in a structured fashion so that people cannot "interpret" its meaning in order to corrupt it.




Originally Posted by Ethereal
Societies may evolve but the ideals laid down in the Constitution will never change. Freedom is freedom, individuality is individuality, law is law. The Founding Fathers understood that things would change, hence the inclusion of an Amendment process.

Correct. There are no "interpretations"... if there were, we could "interpret" the entire US Constitution. That is ludicrous.
I am not sure why some people feel that some parts can be interpreted while others are obvious.
 
Article 3: Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them.

I changed which section was bolded because it illustrates how the law of the land is fluid.

And it shows how the statements of the founding fathers are often contradictory to their actions.
 
I changed which section was bolded because it illustrates how the law of the land is fluid.

And it shows how the statements of the founding fathers are often contradictory to their actions.

How does that indicate fluidity?
It simply means that they are hypocrites.
 
Yes answer would be. "No i would not burnt it. I would place it in a museum as a historical item". It would have no other purpose for me other than historical significance. The Constitution is supposed to be a living breathing document. Not a set of commandments created by a higher authority that must be obeyed as dictated.
 
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