If the governor of your state called up the militia would you show up?

[Rich2018]

it's an individual right.

Sure, but so is voting.

 

[Waddy]

Sure, but so is voting.

Yes, both voting and the 2nd Amendment are individual rights. You have such a good grasp of the obvious.

 

[Rich2018]

Yes, both voting and the 2nd Amendment are individual rights. You have such a good grasp of the obvious.

Yet the Republicans are posting restrictions on voting....how do you feel about that ?

 

[Fledermaus]

Yet the Republicans are posting restrictions on voting....how do you feel about that ?

Rabbit holing.

 

[Waddy]

Yet the Republicans are posting restrictions on voting....how do you feel about that ?

ALL rights can be regulated (within narrow limits). I have to provide a photo ID and pass a background check to buy a gun. I would have no problem doing that to vote. Why would you object to showing an ID to vote unless you had something to hide?

 

[Rich2018]

ALL rights can be regulated (within narrow limits). I have to provide a photo ID and pass a background check to buy a gun. I would have no problem doing that to vote. Why would you object to showing an ID to vote unless you had something to hide?

Does that not sound like a license to buy a gun ?

If so, it actually benefits gun owners in having one:

1. No background checks once you have one
2. It shows exactly what guns you can buy (ie: if you have a permit for a machine gun)
3. It can serve as a CCW

I don't understand what the downside is

When it comes to voting, I don't think any ID is necessary at all.

 

[Waddy]

Does that not sound like a license to buy a gun ?

If so, it actually benefits gun owners in having one:

1. No background checks once you have one
2. It shows exactly what guns you can buy (ie: if you have a permit for a machine gun)
3. It can serve as a CCW

I don't understand what the downside is

When it comes to voting, I don't think any ID is necessary at all.

If you need an ID for a gun, then you should need an ID to vote.

 

[Rich2018]

If you need an ID for a gun, then you should need an ID to vote.

Why ?
We really don't want to encourage people to get guns
We do, however, want to encourage people to vote

The potential consequences of someone, who we don't want having a gun, getting their hands on one, is highly destructive and permanent
The potential consequences of someone voting, who shouldn't do, are negligible (and can be investigated/prosecuted post election.

 

[Waddy]

Why ?
We really don't want to encourage people to get guns
We do, however, want to encourage people to vote

The potential consequences of someone, who we don't want having a gun, getting their hands on one, is highly destructive and permanent
The potential consequences of someone voting, who shouldn't do, are negligible (and can be investigated/prosecuted post election.

Matter of opinion. I want to encourage people to get guns. I generally trust people. I trust them to use guns wisely. I trust them to vote wisely. You, on the other hand, show that you don't trust people. If people are too stupid to own guns, then why would you trust them to vote intelligently?

 

[Rich2018]

Matter of opinion. I want to encourage people to get guns. I generally trust people. I trust them to use guns wisely. I trust them to vote wisely. You, on the other hand, show that you don't trust people. If people are too stupid to own guns, then why would you trust them to vote intelligently?

You trust people despite the daily occurrences of mass shootings ?
How many shootings and mass shootings would it take for you to lose this trust ?

It's not that people are stupid to own a gun (though more than a few gun related deaths/injuries are caused by stupidity), it's because too many people are evil and use their guns maliciously

No-one ever killed/injured another person by voting

I really don't see the need for ID to vote - sure some people will impersonate others but the majority of these people will be caught, especially if they persist, and fraudulent voting will never be so common as to significantly affect an election

It's been 20 years since I left the UK, but when voted there, no ID was required or asked for.
You say you trust people with guns, but you don't trust them to vote unless they produce ID

Isn't that at best inconsistent ?

 

[Waddy]

You trust people despite the daily occurrences of mass shootings ?
How many shootings and mass shootings would it take for you to lose this trust ?

It's not that people are stupid to own a gun (though more than a few gun related deaths/injuries are caused by stupidity), it's because too many people are evil and use their guns maliciously

No-one ever killed/injured another person by voting

I really don't see the need for ID to vote - sure some people will impersonate others but the majority of these people will be caught, especially if they persist, and fraudulent voting will never be so common as to significantly affect an election

It's been 20 years since I left the UK, but when voted there, no ID was required or asked for.
You say you trust people with guns, but you don't trust them to vote unless they produce ID

Isn't that at best inconsistent ?

If you insist on people producing an ID to participate in one right, then to be consistent, you should produce an ID for other rights. That would be consistent. Personally, I don't favor producing an ID for any right. So I'll trade you; you drop the demand for gun purchase ID, and I'll drop the demand for voting ID.

And yes, there are evil people in the world, most of which seek to do us harm. That's why the rest of us, the good guys, need to be armed. It's called self defense. The day you can show me the police can protect me from being harmed by the bad people, I will gladly give up my guns. In the entire span of human history, individuals have had to protect themselves. The police are minutes away when seconds count. Fix that problem and I'll switch to your side. Until then, you make no sense.

 

[Rich2018]

If you insist on people producing an ID to participate in one right, then to be consistent, you should produce an ID for other rights. That would be consistent.

No, because as I said, the consequences of fraudulently buying a gun and fraudulently voting are not the same. Not even close

Personally, I don't favor producing an ID for any right. So I'll trade you; you drop the demand for gun purchase ID, and I'll drop the demand for voting ID.

While this might seem a fair trade-off at first glace it isn't really
As we really don't want prohibited people buying guns but we really want people to vote, because even in last year's election, turn out was still scandalously low

And yes, there are evil people in the world, most of which seek to do us harm. That's why the rest of us, the good guys, need to be armed. It's called self defense.

But how can the "good guys" be armed while the bad guys aren't ?

Moreover, do you really prefer a Wild West shoot out mode of self defense ?
What other developed country sees armed citizens engaging in shoot outs with criminals, in a public place ?

Moreover again, if you draw a gun to defeat a criminal, you will run the risk of making it worse for yourself....better to lose your wallet or your car than lose your life

The day you can show me the police can protect me from being harmed by the bad people, I will gladly give up my guns. In the entire span of human history, individuals have had to protect themselves. The police are minutes away when seconds count. Fix that problem and I'll switch to your side. Until then, you make no sense.

I could show you this, but you will say you don't care what happens in other countries.

 

[Waddy]

No, because as I said, the consequences of fraudulently buying a gun and fraudulently voting are not the same. Not even close



While this might seem a fair trade-off at first glace it isn't really
As we really don't want prohibited people buying guns but we really want people to vote, because even in last year's election, turn out was still scandalously low



But how can the "good guys" be armed while the bad guys aren't ?

Moreover, do you really prefer a Wild West shoot out mode of self defense ?
What other developed country sees armed citizens engaging in shoot outs with criminals, in a public place ?

Moreover again, if you draw a gun to defeat a criminal, you will run the risk of making it worse for yourself....better to lose your wallet or your car than lose your life



I could show you this, but you will say you don't care what happens in other countries.

So far you don't make much of a case. You can't insure the police will be there when TSHF so it is up to me, the individual, to defend myself, much as it has been all through history. When you show me the bad guys can't get a gun, we'll talk about my gun. It's rather arrogant of you to try to tell me I don't have a right to defend myself and my loved ones. You feel free to make that decision for yourself, but leave me free to decide for myself. Don't try to impose your will on the rest of us. Cause, frankly, we don' give a rat's ass what you think.

 

[Glitch]

If you need an ID for a gun, then you should need an ID to vote.

You need an ID to vote because only US citizens are allowed to vote. You do not need an ID to buy or own a gun, because you do not need to be a US citizen to own a firearm in the US.

 

[Rich2018]

So far you don't make much of a case. You can't insure the police will be there when TSHF so it is up to me, the individual, to defend myself, much as it has been all through history. When you show me the bad guys can't get a gun, we'll talk about my gun. It's rather arrogant of you to try to tell me I don't have a right to defend myself and my loved ones. You feel free to make that decision for yourself, but leave me free to decide for myself. Don't try to impose your will on the rest of us. Cause, frankly, we don' give a rat's ass what you think.

*Ensure

That you admit the possibility of some gun owners proving to be untrustworthy and use their guns against you, undermines your argument somewhat
It also makes a huge case for guns to be banned

How do you explain that most Americans defend their household without a gun ?

How would you propose to disarm the "bad guys" and leave the "good guys" armed ?

No-one is telling you, that you can't defend yourself. Just that we'd restrict the tools you can have to do so....predominantly because if we allowed you to have them, the "bad guys" will get and use them.

 

[Waddy]

You need an ID to vote because only US citizens are allowed to vote. You do not need an ID to buy or own a gun, because you do not need to be a US citizen to own a firearm in the US.

There are people who are ineligible to buy a gun, like felons, and there are people who are ineligible to vote, like illegals. So I don't really have a problem proving I am an eligible citizen in either case. After showing an ID, I think you should be able to buy any gun you want and take it where you want. Once showing an ID, I think you should vote for whichever candidate you like on the ballot.

 

[Waddy]

*Ensure

That you admit the possibility of some gun owners proving to be untrustworthy and use their guns against you, undermines your argument somewhat
It also makes a huge case for guns to be banned

How do you explain that most Americans defend their household without a gun ?

How would you propose to disarm the "bad guys" and leave the "good guys" armed ?

No-one is telling you, that you can't defend yourself. Just that we'd restrict the tools you can have to do so....predominantly because if we allowed you to have them, the "bad guys" will get and use them.

OK, grammar Nazi. My bad.

Without a gun they aren't defending anything.

Long, long prison sentences. And by enforcing the 26,000 guns laws already on the books. And stop plea bargaining gun charges.

The "bad guys" have guns and always will, regardless of gun laws. That's why they're called "bad guys"; they don't follow the laws. They just prey on those that do. (And that's prey, not pray). It's the law abiding who don't have guns that pray when TSHTF. Prayer isn't generally an effective defense.

 

[Glitch]

There are people who are ineligible to buy a gun, like felons, and there are people who are ineligible to vote, like illegals. So I don't really have a problem proving I am an eligible citizen in either case. After showing an ID, I think you should be able to buy any gun you want and take it where you want. Once showing an ID, I think you should vote for whichever candidate you like on the ballot.

They are only ineligible to buy a gun if they go through FFL holders. There are no background checks, and therefore no ID required, when buying or selling to individuals. I have never bought any of my firearms from an FFL holder. They have all been personal sales from individuals who do not own an FFL.

 

[Rich2018]

There are people who are ineligible to buy a gun, like felons, and there are people who are ineligible to vote, like illegals. So I don't really have a problem proving I am an eligible citizen in either case. After showing an ID, I think you should be able to buy any gun you want and take it where you want. Once showing an ID, I think you should vote for whichever candidate you like on the ballot.

What about people with no photo ID ?

OK, you say so they can't buy a gun

OK, I say, but why should that also mean they can't vote ?

 

[switt]

If the governor of your state called up the militia would you show up?

Say there was some emergency, a hurricane, civil unrest, floods.

Militias are why we have the Second Amendment.

So we can pack heat to save from flood and hurricane? From what I see going on, it's the ones who would answer that call are the ones to fear.

 

[Waddy]

They are only ineligible to buy a gun if they go through FFL holders. There are no background checks, and therefore no ID required, when buying or selling to individuals. I have never bought any of my firearms from an FFL holder. They have all been personal sales from individuals who do not own an FFL.

You are absolutely correct. I was of course referring to FFL purchases. I also have never purchased a gun using any ID. All private sales or "gifts". I have never personally filled out a 4473.

 

[Waddy]

What about people with no photo ID ?

OK, you say so they can't buy a gun

OK, I say, but why should that also mean they can't vote ?

You're just insulting people now. Who is it that has no way to get a photo ID. Who are those people?

Because we need to ensure only citizens vote. And only once per election.

 

[Rich2018]

You are absolutely correct. I was of course referring to FFL purchases. I also have never purchased a gun using any ID. All private sales or "gifts". I have never personally filled out a 4473.

Doesn't that indicate a hole in the current process ?

 

[Waddy]

Doesn't that indicate a hole in the current process ?

What process? Anyone buying a gun retail has to fill out a 4473. That's the "process".

 

[Rich2018]

What process?

Position One:

Anyone buying a gun retail has to fill out a 4473. That's the "process".

Position Two:

...I have never personally filled out a 4473.

Anyone else see the hole ?